TheRPGSite

So according to this article by him (http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/issues/issue_193/5856-Internet-Killed-the-Tabletop-Star) the Internet is killing RPGs, because MMOs and the peripheral activities around them scratch the same itch (citing all sorts of things which don't involve sitting around the table with other human beings), and then goes on to mention how RPGs managed to survive the Magic: the Gathering boom (which he argues made good use of the Internet - so the net didn't kill RPGs then, but are killing them now), and then goes on to praise indie RPGs, the old-school movement, and virtual tabletops as the future of RPGs. Which depend on the Internet.

So the Internet:
a) is killing RPGs.
b) has previously failed to kill RPGs.
c) is keeping RPGs alive and vibrant.

Contradictory, eh?

Again ?

Edit: I should have bought him a drink when he was living, my country.

Regards,
David R

He starts off listing sales figures, numbers of stores, magazine circulation, etc.  Then jumps to:

QuoteThe entire tabletop hobby is shrinking and graying, and will eventually join model railroads and rocketry as an obscure, geriatric pursuit.

I think what he meant to say is "The entire tabletop hobby INDUSTRY is shrinking"

They're not the same thing.

Regardless of the merits of the article, it still makes me feel kind of warm and fuzzy to see Allen Varney mentioning Fight On!.

It's probably true to some degree though ultimately a pointless exercise to write about it - as if people will stop playing and writing games (especially, ironically, when it has never been easier to make and publish your own little game).

He's just WRONG.


Yes, the Gaming/RPG Hobby Industry is shrinking.  Meanwhile, most of "retail" is shrinking as well.
 The Gaming industry is a subset of retail - its not an isolated pocket or anything.

I see NEW players coming to the hobby all the time - they're just being more careful with how much money they spend. (like I said in the other thread) Heck, I was just talking with a guy yesterday who said he really learned to play Dungeons & Dragons while he was serving in Iraq with the Marines. He'd only played once or twice in high School and didn't think much of it. While in Iraq he met a good Dungeonmaster and group at the base he was at.

AS for computers? There are times people get sick of sitting in front of a screen .  Being around a table gaming anf sharing snacks is a much more attractive alternative for people at those times.

- Ed C.

Quote...will eventually join model railroads and rocketry as an obscure, geriatric pursuit.

I wish rpg's were as popular as model railroads.  They at least still have two or three in print magazines for sale at every bookstore.

Quote from: Stuart;290361I think what he meant to say is "The entire tabletop hobby INDUSTRY is shrinking"

They're not the same thing.

Well, I would say that if the industry shrinks away to nothing, then the hobby will shrink too; new product not being sold means that the only possible new players will come by word-of-mouth (or occasionally maybe used bookstores and such), and you'd better believe that this will make it harder to have a hobby.

Especially since, unlike say Model Railroading, our hobby actually depends on not just two but THREE OR FOUR people at the very minimum being able to find each other and game together.

Now try doing that after there hasn't been a new large-scale rpg published in 10 years. 20? 40?

People who say "RPGs will be just fine without the industry" are deluding themselves; or are at the least being extremely selfish, thinking their little group will just keep going fine. But eventually, you'll lose people from your little group too, and no one will be around to take their place.

RPGPunditf

Oh yeah, and Varney's out of his mind.  He has been for quite some time now, ever since he tried to pretend that Paranoia XP hadn't borrowed any design principles whatsoever from D20.

RPGPundit

As a WoW player, and as somebody who has played CoC, Shadowrun, EarthDawn, and to my shame, even OWOD Vampire for the past 20 odd years, I can definitely say that trying to RP on WoW leaves a quite a bit to be desired.
 
  Nothing like my toons, named Shalvayez, Auren and such, trying to rp with a dipshit named iliketospooge.

yeh i agree on the general pointlessness of trying to rp on mmo's, thing is the companies who run the games could easily add some kinda filter to the roleplay based servers to stop idiots who lack an imagination from calling there toons stupid shit but they dont seem to give enough of a damn to do so.  thats why i no longer bother with city of heroes, i just cant buy into a city who's citizens want to be protected by a guy calling himself ilikecookies or xxxcaptainbigshlongxxx.

Quote from: Broken-Serenity;290424thing is the companies who run the games could easily add some kinda filter to the roleplay based servers to stop idiots who lack an imagination from calling there toons stupid shit

You could meet with your friends and do things as a group.  But that doesn't do anything about the bigger problem. It's far better than the first generation of computer rpgs but it's still a rigid environment.  You can't convince the head minion to turn on his boss or find a clever noncombat solution unless those things are already planned for by programmers and offered as part of the multiple choice of solutions.  It's like roleplaying with a turtle - whatever you do, it's still just a turtle.

I actually utilize the random name generator that WoW has. Comes up with some pretty good ones, but yeah, I run into  CaptainJizzSucker, I cap his ass without saying a word.
 
Something to be said about running table tops, the GM can squash stupid names and concepts.
 
 Another thing I don't like about Warcraft is... One cannot play a Horde Human, and Alliance Tauren, etc. I like to play characters as individuals, and sometimes that means grossly going against the grain. What's to stop a Tauren from saying, 'I don't believe in what the Horde is doing, it's wrong, I will fight for the Alliance!" ?
 
 And...people cannot eat pizza, drink beer, and smoke cigarettes with their guildmates. RPGs are superior in this regard.
 
OTOH, if the publishers of Shadowrun, Dark Heresy, Vampire, etc wanted to, what's stopping them from making MMORPGs of their own?

Quote from: RPGPundit;290414People who say "RPGs will be just fine without the industry" are deluding themselves; or are at the least being extremely selfish, thinking their little group will just keep going fine. But eventually, you'll lose people from your little group too, and no one will be around to take their place.
 
RPGPunditf

The internet has greatly reduced the need for an industry.  You can still find new players, new amatueur games, and pdfs of old games even if there is no one producing games.  
 
A hobby doesn't need money involved to be a hobby.  An example of this are the fanfic communities, which are entirely amateur (at least in English).  They produce new stuff, share ideas, and do things cooperatively without any hope of anyone going pro.  Ultimately, it's even more pathetic than rpgs but it's an example of a hobby without a pro site
 
(Yes it does feed on professionally produced media.  RPGs do the same thing with non-rpg media.)

Quote from: shalvayez;290430And...people cannot eat pizza, drink beer, and smoke cigarettes with their guildmates. RPGs are superior in this regard.

LAN party.. get friends, try it.

Quote from: CavScout;290432LAN party.. get friends, try it.

I have done it. It is fun. Although i was on the fast computer so it was more fun for me. Plus I got to yell a Mike Crow about Scott's Fireball policy...

Quote from: CavScout;290432LAN party.. get friends, try it.

...and when the power goes out??

You can still play pen & paper RPGs by candlelight, lantern light, and even sunlight.
On a calm day its possible to play an RPG at a picnic table and get decent sunburn on the arms while doing so.


- Ed C.

Quote from: Koltar;290444...and when the power goes out??

You can still play pen & paper RPGs by candlelight, lantern light, and even sunlight.
On a calm day its possible to play an RPG at a picnic table and get decent sunburn on the arms while doing so.


- Ed C.

Ahem, UPS...Ahem...

Quote from: mhensley;290406I wish rpg's were as popular as model railroads.  They at least still have two or three in print magazines for sale at every bookstore.

Ouch!

Quote from: RPGPundit;290414Especially since, unlike say Model Railroading, our hobby actually depends on not just two but THREE OR FOUR people at the very minimum being able to find each other and game together.

THIS is the big problem.   You can be a hardcore model railroad dude who never meets another fan of your hobby.   If you love RPGs and you can't gather a group, you are most likely going to seek out WoW or internet substitutes.

Quote from: shalvayez;290430OTOH, if the publishers of Shadowrun, Dark Heresy, Vampire, etc wanted to, what's stopping them from making MMORPGs of their own?

Twenty million dollars in development costs.

Quote from: Koltar;290444...and when the power goes out??

You can still play pen & paper RPGs by candlelight, lantern light, and even sunlight.
On a calm day its possible to play an RPG at a picnic table and get decent sunburn on the arms while doing so.

Perhaps it is because I don't work for minimum in a game shop but I pay my electric bill and so do those I hang with.

Oh, and if you have a hard-on for playing outside, you can always grab a wireless card or play in a WiFi spot.

Quote from: CavScout;290470Perhaps it is because I don't work for minimum in a game shop but I pay my electric bill and so do those I hang with.

Oh, and if you have a hard-on for playing outside, you can always grab a wireless card or play in a WiFi spot.

You stupid fuck, the power goes out for more than just "not paying the bill", weather can cause that shit as well.

You know, when the oil runs out there will be no more plastic. And then what will we do for dice?!?

Quote from: droog;290482You know, when the oil runs out there will be no more plastic. And then what will we do for dice?!?

They were made from bone before, so they will again...

Quote from: droog;290482You know, when the oil runs out there will be no more plastic. And then what will we do for dice?!?

:teehee:

Quote from: shalvayez;290478You stupid fuck, the power goes out for more than just "not paying the bill", weather can cause that shit as well.

Were you hit so hard on the head that you actually buy into the argument that the dangers of losing electrical power is a reason not to play a computer based game with friends?

Quote from: CavScout;290488Were you hit so hard on the head that you actually buy into the argument that the dangers of losing electrical power is a reason not to play a computer based game with friends?

Why not? It's obvious that you buy into the argument that "not paying the bill" is the only way to lose power.

Quote from: shalvayez;290496Why not? It's obvious that you buy into the argument that "not paying the bill" is the only way to lose power.

Naw, that's just my way of telling Koltar he is a dumb ass and that his objection was lame. So I ask again, were you hit so hard on the head that you actually buy into the argument that the dangers of losing electrical power is a reason not to play a computer based game with friends?

The way I look at it, electronic RPGs are like this.  Follow my handy chart!

We shall say a quality tabletop RPG is like good sex.

Now a solo electronic RPG is basically masturbation.  It might be scratching the itch, but its just not the same.

MMOs are cybersex.  Its just masturbation with a live person on the other end.

Outside of a few Tangency/GBS asexual wierdoes I think most of us would rather be getting IT ON WOOO as opposed to spanking the monkey/petting the kitty.

(I'm not sure what LARPing would be.  Orgies maybe?  Full contact S&M clubs?  Bath Houses?  Which would mean Boffer LARPs are prison.)

Interestingly enough I prefer solo RPGs to MMOs.  No dealing with stupid people.  Its my own little fun on my own terms.

(Anyone who has tried to roleplay online kinky or just RP knows how many fucking nitwits there are out there.  And some of these people are.. SCARY.  1/1d10 SAN loss at least!)

And yeah, the industry is going downhill.  No shit.  RPGs require multiple people who are available at the same times, who can find each other, want to hang out with each other, play the same damned game, and like the style of game played.

Add in the highway robbery some of these books cost (yes yes print runs I am aware.  I still don't give a shit.), the fact it requires some reading (a quickly dying art, though the preteen novels genre might help the next generation.  Even if it is ass like Twilight and Eragon type books), and the willingness to look for this stuff and its a disaster waiting to happen.

And laptops burn through batteries pretty quick, especially when wifi is on.  Hell, even the iPod Touch/iPhone, PSP, and Nintendo DS burn through them.  You aint playing outdoors all day long on one.  Shit, most times it SUCKS ASS playing one of them in daylight!  Not to mention most Wifi is not free, or its limited.  (You can play a DS free at McDonalds, but you gotta pay to use a web browser on a computing device.  Sucky considering we pay 20-50 bucks a month or so for our home connections.  Why pay more to use it in public?)

DU SANG DE LA CHIQUE ET DU MOLARD !

Come on guys, meet IRL, stage a fight, shoot a video and post it on the forum. At least it would be exciting ! But a virtual catfight about power shortage ? You gotta be kidding.

Quote from: boulet;290501But a virtual catfight about power shortage ? You gotta be kidding.

Everyone knows that Y2K was a plan by hard-core table-top RPGers to elevate their games to the premier hobby of the world... damm over-paid code fixers ruined everything! Now they've turned to the instabilities of the power grid!

I had no idea my one comment was going to cause a de-rail like it did.
Its a nice day today , and I had the day off - so I went for a walk.

Back in September, you guys remember that Hurricane Ike that hit a big chunk of the southeastern United States?

Well, here in the Cincinnati area windstorms generated by that hurricane's leading edge knocked out power in almost 75% of the town for close to a month.  Those people all paid their bills - but they still didn't have poer.

Three years ago I was running a game here with the usual GURPS: TRAVELLER bunch - and major thunderstorm /electrical storm hit the area and the lights went out for 45 minuites - for my whole street. The funny thing is after a few minutes  a couple players joked around with me in-character after we had the flashlights out and a few candles lit. We were all set to try and finish that night's game by candlelight.


Allan Varney?
Still think he's dead wrong.

- Ed C.

Ed, you're an idiot.

Anyway, to Varney's article. I thought he had some good points as long as you don't make such simple statements as:

'The internet:

a) is killing RPGs.
b) has previously failed to kill RPGs.
c) is keeping RPGs alive and vibrant'

Otherwise of course they're contradictory. I think to state that:

- the online gaming aspect of the internet is killing the growth of tabletop RPGs as a mainstream activity
- CCGs were supported by the internet as they established themselves
- online publishing, discussions, fora, resources, etc enable new games to develop that are not solely produced for a mass-market audience and stimulate creativity
- virtual tabletops, online messaging, chat, etc keep a certain group of players actively enjoying RPGs who wouldn't otherwise do so

is fine and far more in line with the article.

Personally I think that tabletop RPGs will go the way of wargaming - masses of resources, a demographic who can afford to maintain a number of industry providers, but increasingly ageing and limited profile, a niche activity (wargaming used to be on the TV FFS) with small numbers coming into it but a long (decades) spiral down. It won't disappear, but it's not coming back to its glory days in the 80s or even 90s.

I spend my days working with teenagers and tabletop RPGing just doesn't appeal to them in the same way it did when I was that age, yet I look at a game such as Urban Dead and they will put masses of effort into a very basic game. I'm trying to run some version of D&D at school at some point but even when we've got a full set of recent 4E books as a resource (courtesy of a parent who's an illustrator for WOTC) they'd rather get models out and wargame. And don't tell me that if only I'd used a PDF of OD&D it would galvanise them into RPGing action too....

Quote from: CavScout;290432get friends

Jeez, doesn't anyone have any easy answers?!

Quote from: RPGPundit;290414Well, I would say that if the industry shrinks away to nothing, then the hobby will shrink too; new product not being sold means that the only possible new players will come by word-of-mouth (or occasionally maybe used bookstores and such), and you'd better believe that this will make it harder to have a hobby.

Personally, I wonder whether RPGs haven't been surviving on word-of-mouth for the last few decades. I suspect more people come into gaming through friends than through stumbling across a book and learning to play from that.

Quote from: Warthur;290704Personally, I wonder whether RPGs haven't been surviving on word-of-mouth for the last few decades. I suspect more people come into gaming through friends than through stumbling across a book and learning to play from that.

That right there means that Role Playing Games will be around for quite awhile.  People are more likely to do things when friends are encouraging them and they get to spend time with folks that they like.


- Ed C.

Quote from: CavScout;290503Everyone knows that Y2K was a plan by hard-core table-top RPGers to elevate their games to the premier hobby of the world... damm over-paid code fixers ruined everything! Now they've turned to the instabilities of the power grid!

That would be ironic given the heavy overlap between the two communities but oddly plausible given some of the debates that occur

Quote from: Koltar;290707That right there means that Role Playing Games will be around for quite awhile.  People are more likely to do things when friends are encouraging them and they get to spend time with folks that they like.

Yeah, plus there hasn't been a majorly successful newbie-friendly RPG since TSR stopped making decent D&D basic sets.

There have been successful RPGs since then; those have tended to "preach to the choir". There have been attempts at introductory RPGs for newbies since then; I can't think of any which managed to actually catch on amongst people who weren't already fully aware of the RPG scene. There hasn't been a game which has managed to be sufficiently approachable to attract nongamers (note that "approachable" does not necessarily mean "oversimplified", which is a mistake I think people commonly make), and at the same time has been successful enough to get any kind of attention beyond the crowd who already play RPGs anyway.

Ultimately the things that bolsters Table-top RPGs will work along with the traditional way of play and not supplant it.

Allen Varney talks about one of them and that is Virtual Table Top Software like Fantasy Grounds. He misses two other items e-books and surface computing. All of three will have a profound impact on table-top RPGs without altering it fundamental nature.

The three technologies will also cause table-top RPGs to go down two reinforcing paths.

The first path revolves around Virtual Table Top software. The ability of the Internet to provide a communication pathway anywhere is the key to the success of VTT software. Currently VTT Software is focused on one narrow but important problem. Allowing player that are spread out geographically to play a true table-top game.

While not precisely the same VTT software is very close to the experience of sitting around a table with your friends. The main problem of using VTTs is the same problem with communication over the internet, it is hard to see the other person talking to you and look at their body language. You also have some more prep work as you need stuff typed in or scanned in in order to use them with the software.

VTTs brings some advantages. It can do automatic logging of sessions, has true fog of war, truly private messaging to individual players and so on. One thing that hasn't played out yet is coupling the VTT software to decent content generation. For example being able to make a map of a forest with a path through on the fly. Or a 3D rendering of minatures and a dungeon.

The biggest impact of VTTs will be the network effect. This is what makes Wizard's stumbles in DDI so frustrating. The VTT that allows it users access to hundreds of gamers has the potential of putting the industry on a stable footing. As those who can't find players or can only play at odd times can find a group to play the game with.

The second path will revolve around Surface computing. Basically a game console plays on a vertical surface. In contrast a surface can display on a horizontal surface. Combined with a touch interface it can make RPGs (and wargames) more accessible to the general public.

Combined with flexible display technology a surface could be taken wherever a laptop can go. Games using miniatures can embed RFID chips and interact with the engine running in the surface. RPGs will have a great system for battleboards.

The last technology is e-book. The kindle is a great way to read a book. It's display looks like paper and nothing like a computer screen. I read probably twice as many books and magazines since getting my Kindle a year ago than the previous year. The big problems with e-book readers are the price (too high) and the screen size.

E-book readers will start to have a major impact on our hobby when e-books capable of 8.5 by 11 displays go below the $200 mark. At that point they will be affordable enough for most of the general public. E-books also have some advantages in regards to RPGs. The ability to accept updates so that errata and additions can be included Seamlessly. And most important to allow bookmarks and links to important rule sections.

Unlike Vinyl records vs CDs, I doubt books will ever disappear. Where e-books will have the biggest impact is on marginal markets. Where production runs are too small to get a cost break. Markets like RPGs. This will make RPGs more affordable and increase the diversity of the industry. I mentioned two paths that computing will have on Table-top RPGs. E-books impact both.

Which of these technologies will impact first? Currently it is a race between VTT software and E-books. Wizards has a chance at creating a second generation VTT software with access to thousands of gamers. If they succeed at doing this then look for a sea change in our hobby.  If they open up the VTT to other game systems the network effect will cause it to swamp all other competitors. If they don't then look for a strong third party competitor to emerge. If the software is notoriously crappy and/or people don't sign up then any impact will be pushed to the third generation of VTT software.

None of these technologies supplant anything you doing now. With E-books you can use your regular books along side a reader. With a surface you can still pull out paper battle boards and use regular miniatures. For those who dislike miniatures it can be useful as a presentation display for pictures or sketches. VTTs are focused on united geographically separated gamers and can be ignored by the people who game locally.

Quote from: estar;290739Allen Varney talks about one of them and that is Virtual Table Top Software like Fantasy Grounds. He misses two other items e-books and surface computing. All of three will have a profound impact on table-top RPGs without altering it fundamental nature.

I really disagree with this.  It's the whole "Paperless Office" thing applied to tabletop gaming.  Tech stuff is fun and all... but when most people choose to play a tabletop game it's for different reasons than they want to play on the computer.

virtual table top < videogames
surface computing < real boardgames
e-books < real books
but
e-books --> printing --> real books

Which is why you see PDF sales for game books do very well, but given the choice most people would choose sitting at a real table with real people to play a tabletop game over any virtual table top thing instead of playing an MMO.

People excited about tech and tabletop gaming usually miss:

online social media > talking with the guy who hangs out at the (F)LGS all day
online ordering > driving long distances if you have no (F)LGS in town
gaming blog > writing to yourself in your journal about your D&D game :D

If I'm going to play on the computer, why wouldn't I play a videogame?

Quote from: Stuart;290746If I'm going to play on the computer, why wouldn't I play a videogame?

Because video games are essentially multiple choice tests and some people like more options.  This is why interfaces for playing wargames through the internet have become somewhat popular as they've gotten better.  When you get down to it, AIs are generally dumb, going against another person is more fun.  
 
I think some people also like the stay at home aspect of mmorpgs.  You don't have to travel or even put on clothes to interact with others.

Quote from: Warthur;290353Contradictory, eh?

Not really. The internet killed tabletop RPGs as a mainstream commercial hobby. However, the internet is also keeping the fractured remnants of the hobby connected as tiny, greying, niche communities.

@Nicephorus: I use 'videogame' to mean any game on the computer, including multi-player MMORPGs.

Quote from: Stuart;290746I really disagree with this.  It's the whole "Paperless Office" thing applied to tabletop gaming.  Tech stuff is fun and all... but when most people choose to play a tabletop game it's for different reasons than they want to play on the computer.

VTTs allow people to play RPGs that otherwise CAN'T. The key work is CAN'T. For example I have two friend that I known since high school. One of them lives in New Orleans. Two years ago we resumed playing a regular table top game because Skype + Fantasy Grounds allow us to do this.

E-books work because THEY LOOK LIKE PAPER. I can't emphasize this enough. It is the key point to their acceptance. It looks like paper and reads like paper and handles like book. Again it won't supplant book like CDs did with vinyl records. It will be more like live performance vs CDs. Many will continue with books especially for recreational reading. However many  will use e-books and the two will overlap particularly for technical stuff like RPG rulebooks.

Surfaces is more into the future than the above but having a interactive horizontal table-top will allow different forms of gaming than sitting in front of a tv with a game console. If you asked whether a six degree of freedom hand controller would cause a underperforming game console to become a market leader several years ago people would look at me like I was stupid. The impact of a surface will be Wii-like because a circle of people can sit around and play with it while talking to each other. This appealing on several levels. If the surface platform is open then marginal industries (like RPGs) can have applications developed for it to take advantage of it

Again it will be an additional too not supplanting traditional board games.

Quote from: Stuart;290746If I'm going to play on the computer, why wouldn't I play a videogame?

Because these technologies offer things the traditional methods don't. Understand I am NOT saying these these technologies will replace traditional roleplaying. These technologies will increase DIVERSITY of roleplaying. Allow table-top roleplaying to be more ADAPTABLE to more circumstances. In addition they will lower the barriers of entry into the industry and lower costs.

The paperless office was a failure because it tried to replace paper. Instead these technologies are more like the fax machine or desktop publishing software in that they allow me to use paper more efficiently.

Quote from: Nicephorus;290749I think some people also like the stay at home aspect of mmorpgs.  You don't have to travel or even put on clothes to interact with others.

It is easier to sit down in front of a computer and get going with a VTT than driving even 15 minutes to a friend's house. Basically it will be like a greyscale running from Black to White with all the shade of gray. On one end there are people who can't stand talking over the internet (interesting to see advocates of this approach here), and on the other end people who really dislike getting out of their house to drive 5 minutes to a game. The reality is that most are in the middle. Most prefer to interact with people face to face but will accept alternatives.

The important enabling feature of these technologies is that they will allow people more choices in how they can do tabletop. It won't be limited to just sitting around a table in one location with people.

Quote from: Haffrung;290757Not really. The internet killed tabletop RPGs as a mainstream commercial hobby. However, the internet is also keeping the fractured remnants of the hobby connected as tiny, greying, niche communities.

Really? I see lots of young people on the internet interested in roleplaying, including tabletop games. They post to their livejournals about gaming, they include gaming references in their webcomics, they're interested.

The 8-15 demographic that Red Box captured is lost, but let's face it, capturing it in the first place was a bit of a fluke. Tabletop RPGs were originally pitched at people of college age or above, and as far as I can tell at that age there's still a decent amount of interest.

In what year would you put the death of tabletop RPGs as a mainstream commercial hobby?

I don't think Stuart understands that virtual tabletops are not at all videogamelike. They're more like a chatroom, but with dice, maps, and miniatures that all of the chatroom participants can use.

It isn't that virtual tabletops aren't "as good as" videogames. They accomplish completely different things. That is like saying  "why would I use email when I could just play cards..?"

One is a communication tool (which can be used to facilitate a game), and one is a game (which can be played with others or solitaire).

Apologies if the image comes in a bit big: this is what FantasyGrounds looks like:

(http://www.fantasygrounds.com/images/screenshots/fg2-screenshot-03.jpg)

Now, match that up with a Skype conference call and you have a way to play a roleplaying game over the internet. Notice the dice at the bottom left. You can actually "grab" them and roll them and they bounce around in the virtual tabletop. The map can be revealed and hidden as the Dm wishes. It's pretty cool.

Abyssal Maw gets it right. MMORPG software is focused on game play like video games while VTT software is focused on communication.

Quote from: Abyssal Maw;290809I don't think Stuart understands that virtual tabletops are not at all videogamelike.

You're not going to start stalking me outside of 4e threads now, are you?

It's pretty easy to find out what a Virtual Tabletop (http://tinyurl.com/dd8enj) is and what they look like.  I think they look an awful lot like the videogames I used to play in the late 80s / early 90s.  I just don't find it appealing at all. I'd rather do something else like play WoW (for the first time) instead of playing my favourite edition of D&D with a VTT.

Quote from: Stuart;290758@Nicephorus: I use 'videogame' to mean any game on the computer, including multi-player MMORPGs.

I was grouping mmmorpg with video game as there's a difference between people pooling to fight a computer controlled opponent and playing a game through the internet with a humans on both sides.  
 
One of the big adopters of various vtt that I've noticed is former gaming groups - people who used to play face to face but not live far apart and missing gaming with their buddies.  Given how important player mix is, it's understandable to prefer a friend a thousand miles away over the jerk who happens to live a mile away.

Quote from: Stuart;290825You're not going to start stalking me outside of 4e threads now, are you?

It's pretty easy to find out what a Virtual Tabletop (http://tinyurl.com/dd8enj) is and what they look like.  I think they look an awful lot like the videogames I used to play in the late 80s / early 90s.  I just don't find it appealing at all. I'd rather do something else like play WoW (for the first time) instead of playing my favourite edition of D&D with a VTT.

Wow, one guy gets banned and you guys suddenly see this as your big opportunity?

I am mainly explaining what a VTT is since you were comparing it to a video game.Your statement is equivalent to someone saying "I just don't see why anyone would talk on the phone when they could just play nintendo. A phone looks almost like a nintendo! Plus, isn't talking in person better than talking on a phone? And if someone is far away you can just yell..I don't see why anyone would ever use a phone.."

It is, without a doubt, one of the dumbest statements I've ever heard.

Quote from: Abyssal Maw;290829Wow, one guy gets banned and you guys suddenly see this as your big opportunity?

If you think we all want you to get banned, why not take the hint and piss off? Either that or just reign in your idiotic impulses and stop thread crapping.

Quote from: Abyssal Maw;290829It is, without a doubt, one of the dumbest statements I've ever heard.

That someone would dare to have a different set of preferences than you.  It's preposterous!

Quote from: Stuart;290825I think they look an awful lot like the videogames I used to play in the late 80s / early 90s.  I just don't find it appealing at all. I'd rather do something else like play WoW (for the first time) instead of playing my favourite edition of D&D
with a VTT.

You mean this?

(http://www.adamantyr.com/crpg/images/u4los.png)

I think Fantasy Grounds is a little better looking than that.

You are missing the point. Fantasy Grounds is a communication tool designed to chat, send dice rolls, display images, and manage counters/markers/ It not a game. It can automate certain applications of rules but that not it's main function.

That you would give up table-top in favor of WoW rather than play it over the internet seems a little silly. I understand that some people dislike talking or chatting with other people over the internet and have nothing wrong with that. But to play WoW instead of a VTT, that being a bit stubborn.

Quote from: Stuart;290835If you think we all want you to get banned, why not take the hint and piss off? Either that or just reign in your idiotic impulses and stop thread crapping.

That someone would dare to have a different set of preferences than you.  It's preposterous!

Actually I was kinda posting about virtual tabletops because I happen to know how they work, and I wanted to post a screenshot of one of the better ones, because I had the impression that people reading something idiotic like "VTT are comparable to videogames" would get the wrong impression. If you go back and read the thread this is exactly what I did. Comparing a communication app to a video game is absolutely moronic. If it makes any difference they have these for non-gaming applications as well (Adobe Connect being a pretty good example).

Adobe Connect does the exact same thing that FantasyGrounds does, but it is primarily used to teach classes and conduct business meetings over the internet. But somehow (don't ask me how!) it never gets compared to a video game. Mostly because people aren't naturally idiots.

In any case, I think you might be off topic.  And if you want me to be banned, just advise the mods I guess.

Ok. I honestly do get that it's a chat client and a voice-over-ip service and a shared whiteboard and all that stuff.  I understand that there is no AI running things and it's all based on the GM running the game.  The graphics are better than what you'd get on your Atari 2600.  Great.

Quote from: estar;290836That you would give up table-top in favor of WoW rather than play it over the internet seems a little silly. I understand that some people dislike talking or chatting with other people over the internet and have nothing wrong with that. But to play WoW instead of a VTT, that being a bit stubborn.

I chat with people online all the time.  I've been on an RPG podcast and will be posting more Skype interview stuff in the near future.  I used to spend a lot of time with MUDs and MUSHes when I was younger too.  Talk and Chat online aren't the issue.

Neither VTT or WoW is tabletop - by which I mean a real-world experience with your friends, in your house, with snacks, face-to-face interaction, real dice you hold in your real hand, real books you flip through, real graph-paper you draw on with a real pencil or pen, and general socializing.  All the 'cheetoist' stuff that Kyle talks about.  My job (and much of my spare time) is spent on the computer.  What I like about tabletop games is that they are 'unplugged'.

If I'm going to spend gaming time on my computer why wouldn't I choose WoW, City of Heroes or some other MMO over VTT? Millions of other people have made a similar choice.  The things I like about tabletop games you don't get from a VTT.  Without those things then a VTT doesn't win out over an MMO for me.  Your preferences are your own - and if you like VTT then that's cool.  It's not for me though.

AM's stalking aside...

I've gamed via voice chat a bit over the past 8 or 9 years using various programs.  Like many others on this thread, most of this online gaming was done with my old group (one of whom worked for a software firm so we had access to a fantastic videoconferencing tool).  It most definitely did not replace the experience of face-to-face gaming even if we did roll our own dice, but it was miles better than not getting to game together at all.

I did run a few games with total strangers using the old WebRPG or OpenRPG program when I was in college.  Again, not a replacement for the real deal, but it was a great game and I still correspond occasionally with a few of my players from those days.

Also, being a die-hard hex-and-chit wargamer, I can match wits (well, with my skill level I rarely match...) with hundreds of folks worldwide or do a one-turn-a-day pickup game with my regular ftf wargame opponent during the week via Cyberboard.

So, yeah, while it will never be as good as the real thing, programs that facilitate online gaming have been great for me.  But I can totally understand Stuart's position that it's not for him.

Quote from: Stuart;290843Neither VTT or WoW is tabletop.

I think everyone here gets that.  You phrased things as if you couldn't believe anyone would choose vtt over tabletop.  Most responses were answering that.  I don't think anyone here thinks face to face gaming will disappear as there are aspects that no computer based system can emlulate.  However, many in the thread think that VTT will offer a viable alternative or addition for many, even if you're not one of them.
 
Actually, I think one of the values of VTT and things like it will be smoother face to face games.  Rather than drawing things out, you can reveal the map as it's explored and have it stored between sessions.  Keeping track of what was killed and what was found would be nice.  Many GMs already use a laptop to show pictures.  PDFs of rules make for quick searching of rules in session.    Some people won't like this intrusion, some will.

Read Doc Rotwangs recent thread about the Gamer Who Wasn't.

Gaming requires people, facilities (a place to sit and actually conduct the game), and coordinated time. With any game that doesn't have a very large community, this becomes a bit complicated. The more people you have, the more coordinated you have to be..everyone has to link up, and make the same time appointments, and if anyone drops out, it can adversely affect the group. Virtual tabletops can ease those requirements, and can do some interesting things like allow geographically dislocated people to play together. I've been in games with Settembrini, Deaduematsu and James Skach,-- all at the same table--  despite the fact that they were hundreds (and sometimes thousands) of miles away.

The only reliable alternative is to simply live amongst a lot of people who are interested in gaming, or have access to a number of people interested in the same game as you are. At that point, the situation reverses. Instead of the more people, the more complicated-- it becomes 'the more people, the easier', because now you have a greater chance of having your free time match up with one or more of the people in the larger pool. This is why more gaming happens in college and in themilitary than in the general population.

The reason a person might choose to use a tool to facilitate/participate in a roleplaying game over the internet rather than play an online game like WoW is simply personal preference, as it is with most things.  Why do people roleplay when they could just arm wrestle? Personal preference. I don't know, figure it out.

Quote from: Stuart;290843All the 'cheetoist' stuff that Kyle talks about.  My job (and much of my spare time) is spent on the computer.  What I like about tabletop games is that they are 'unplugged'.

That understandable and a reasonable choice.

Quote from: Stuart;290843If I'm going to spend gaming time on my computer why wouldn't I choose WoW, City of Heroes or some other MMO over VTT? Millions of other people have made a similar choice.  The things I like about tabletop games you don't get from a VTT.  Without those things then a VTT doesn't win out over an MMO for me.  Your preferences are your own - and if you like VTT then that's cool.  It's not for me though.

So you are saying that you play table-top for the 'cheetoist' stuff. As for the game you couldn't care less about (although my guess you do care about somethings like genre). If you just wanted to play a game then WoW and other RPG videogames are better choices than a tabletop ruleset.

Nothing wrong with that either. I had many players that wouldn't be at a table-top game it wasn't for the 'cheetoist' stuff. As for me, I like being with my friends but I am there to play the game as well. So for somebody like me a VTT is an adequate substitute.

My day job is that I am the head programmer of a company making metal cutting software. Sometimes I do get sick of the computer as well. However with VTT software during the game feels more like I using a fancy phone than mucking around with a videogame or doing some type of work like creating a document.

However if I am GMing then there is work involving the computer during prep. Primarily scanning stuff. But during the actual game again it is more like a fancy phone.

Quote from: Nicephorus;290852Actually, I think one of the values of VTT and things like it will be smoother face to face games.  Rather than drawing things out, you can reveal the map as it's explored and have it stored between sessions.  Keeping track of what was killed and what was found would be nice.  Many GMs already use a laptop to show pictures.  PDFs of rules make for quick searching of rules in session.    Some people won't like this intrusion, some will.

I read about people use VTT software as an aide during play. Project the map down onto the table via a projector. Some tech savvy groups has everybody networked together and instead of pen and paper do the record keeping with the VTT. Here it is used as an aide not a substitute.

Quote from: estar;290854So you are saying that you play table-top for the 'cheetoist' stuff. As for the game you couldn't care less about (although my guess you do care about somethings like genre). If you just wanted to play a game then WoW and other RPG videogames are better choices than a tabletop ruleset.

I think it's a major factor in the appeal of tabletop games for me.  Not the only thing I like about them though, otherwise it wouldn't matter what game I play - and I definitely have preferences. :)

Since I've known about virtual tables and MMOs for a long time and don't play with either, and I think about how I choose to spend my free time I'd say my gaming related preferences usually run something like this:

• TT RPG I Like
• Boardgame / Wargame
• TT RPG I don't Like
• Genre Movies / Books
• Gamecube
• MMO
• VT RPG I Like
• CRPG
• VT RPG I don't Like

Quote from: KenHR;290846AM's stalking aside...

.

I don't think he was stalking at all.

Quote from: Broken-Serenity;290424yeh i agree on the general pointlessness of trying to rp on mmo's, thing is the companies who run the games could easily add some kinda filter to the roleplay based servers to stop idiots who lack an imagination from calling there toons stupid shit but they dont seem to give enough of a damn to do so.  thats why i no longer bother with city of heroes, i just cant buy into a city who's citizens want to be protected by a guy calling himself ilikecookies or xxxcaptainbigshlongxxx.

Now we're talkin'. Those are gonna be the names of my next two D&D characters...


...what? ;):D

Quote from: jeff37923;290485They were made from bone before, so they will again...

Sweet!  

Quote from: Warthur;290704I suspect more people come into gaming through friends than through stumbling across a book and learning to play from that.

I deeply agree.   However, game stores are very important.   A lot of people who are in our 4e Meetup group were AD&Ders who dropped out of the hobby, then as a whim popped into the game store and got pointed to the 4e books and told to drop by our regular monthly game.

Quote from: Koltar;290707That right there means that Role Playing Games will be around for quite awhile.

I hope you are right!

Quote from: estar;290739The VTT that allows it users access to hundreds of gamers has the potential of putting the industry on a stable footing. As those who can't find players or can only play at odd times can find a group to play the game with.

I agree.  BTW, thank you for the detailed and insightful post about VTTs!

Quote from: estar;290739Wizards has a chance at creating a second generation VTT software with access to thousands of gamers. If they succeed at doing this then look for a sea change in our hobby.  If they open up the VTT to other game systems the network effect will cause it to swamp all other competitors. If they don't then look for a strong third party competitor to emerge.

I doubt Hasbro is sharp enough open DDI to non-4e.  

However, if DDI is a hit, I could see Fantasy Grounds getting investors to create a more open VTT.

Quote from: Stuart;290746given the choice most people would choose sitting at a real table with real people to play a tabletop game over any virtual table top thing instead of playing an MMO.

I agree that most people would choose Real Table (RT) over VTT.   However, I believe that VTT could compete aggressively with MMOs - especially with people who used to play RT.  

Also, I can see people having their weekly/monthly RT experience, but also doing VTT once a week (or more) as their other gaming.

Quote from: Nicephorus;290749I think some people also like the stay at home aspect of mmorpgs.  You don't have to travel or even put on clothes to interact with others.

Icky...but true.

One of my old RT groups disintegrated when WoW began.   Three of the group were decent gamers, but social interaction was difficult for them.   WoW gave them a shield of protection between themselves and their gaming and off they went.

Quote from: Abyssal Maw;290809Apologies if the image comes in a bit big: this is what FantasyGrounds looks like:

Wow.   I did not know it looked that good.   Thanks for the image!

Let's not use the word "stalking" lightly here folks; just like a certain someone is summoned up anytime someone says the word "Nobilis", AM shows up to defend 4e; and that's fine, as long as it is relevant to the discussion and not derailing a thread.

The term stalking should really be reserved for someone following someone around from thread to thread to engage in personal attacks or off-topic behaviour.

I do see AM being really obsessed with 4e; and trying very hard to defend it in a place that's overall quite hostile to it, but I do not see that he's stalking anyone in that latter sense.  Unless he radically changed his behaviours, I don't think he'd ever have anything to worry about from me.

RPGPundit

Quote from: Aos;290865I don't think he was stalking at all.

I don't, either.  That was just more of me being an ass.

Apologies, AM, for the failed attempt at humor here.

@RPGPundit:  All well and good... except this thread isn't about 4e.

My reply to Abyssal Maw was:

QuoteYou're not going to start stalking me outside of 4e threads now, are you?

And I hope that he doesn't. If I were asking the admins to do something about him I would have contacted them directly. Which I haven't done.

Quote from: Stuart;290897And I hope that he doesn't. If I were asking the admins to do something about him I would have contacted them directly. Which I haven't done.

...Eerily reminiscent of that passive aggressive RPGnet thing where someone weak will try to goad people into making personal attacks so you can jump up and down and squeal like a cur for the mods. Considering the timing and the fact that you actually are a cur, I thought that was probably what was up.

Anyhow, back to VTTs.

FantasyGrounds by default is optimized for D&D, but they allow alternate rulesets and character sheets to be created and imported. This isn't just a reskin, they use XML to create how the dice come up with successes and such. Like if your character rolls to attack it can automate whether or not a hit is a hit, or handle behind the scenes calculations.

There's a specialized ruleset for Traveller (http://oberoten.dyndns.org/fgwiki/index.php/Traveller), one for Labyrinth Lord (http://oberoten.dyndns.org/fgwiki/index.php/Labyrinth_Lord), one for Gurps (http://oberoten.dyndns.org/fgwiki/index.php/GURPS)...and others (http://oberoten.dyndns.org/fgwiki/index.php/Category:Rulesets). The ability to create your own ruleset is available as well, if you can handle XML.

There's almost zero chance that DDI (if and when the online play app ever gets completed) will be extensible like this (although the version I saw allowed for house rules), but I'd hate to see this great resource go to waste just because people don't know about it.

Quote from: Abyssal Maw;290901:rant:

Considering the timing and the fact that you actually are an anti-social idiot, I think I was spot on in asking if you've decided to stalk me outside of 4e threads.  How that helps 'the cause' I have no idea.  Whatever.

Thanks for threadcrapping.

Since we've drifted into talking about Roleplaying games played online, did many other people spend much time with MUDs and MUSHes?  I played *a lot* of those back in the early 90s -- mostly KobraMUD and various World of Darkness MUSHes.

Lots of fun at the time, but not something I have the time or inclination for now. :)

I played a few MUDs when I first got an online account.  I can't even remember the names of them anymore, to be honest.  Gah, there was one in particular I liked that had a RoleMaster-like system, and a decent player base that role-played well.  Aklovestes the Wood Elf Druid was always handy with a Faerie Fire to help his comrades... :)

I just could never get into them enough to attain the highest levels.

I played a Vampire/Werewolf hunter on a WoD site with a friend from highschool who's in my D&D group now.  One of the random retainers he rolled for has the same name as one of his character's henchmen on the MUSH. :)

Looks like the day of the Surface is a little closer than I figured.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QflrIK-m4Ts

Rob Conley

Quote from: estar;290952Looks like the day of the Surface is a little closer than I figured.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QflrIK-m4Ts

Rob Conley

All I can say is... wow!

could that music be any more melodramatic?

Quote from: Ghost Whistler;291068could that music be any more melodramatic?

LOL, I thought they should of led off with the section where the guys were playing and THEN show the fiddly setup portion. I doubt the first Surfaces we are able to buy will be that complex. Likely at first we will be bringing up maps, and zooming in with hand gestures. Then putting miniatures on top of that.

I found the timed move allowance indicator interesting.

I also read on the technical details. Basically the table is has a video camera underneath for projection and recording. There are symbols printed on the objects you put on the table. The computer looks at them through the video recorder and is able to draw accordingly through the projector.

The symbols are created in such a way that not only they are unique to each type of object you put on the table that their orientation can be easily be distinguished. From what I understand the hard part was optical recognition to look reliably at those symbols. Once that part was stable the rest of the coding was pretty straight forward.

The surface was originally built as a music synthesizer. With the table objects able to control and alter sound in specific ways.

Quote from: Stuart;290919Since we've drifted into talking about Roleplaying games played online, did many other people spend much time with MUDs and MUSHes?

What do you mean, "did"? I still do. Sure, it's ancient technology by today's standards; but hey, isn't old school gaming supposed to be hip these days?

The Fantasy Grounds stuff looks pretty impressive...
I play in a local group, face to face, but FG (with the Call of Cthulhu rules addition) looks like it would be a great thing for my friend in Seattle and I to use for gaming...
We play WOW and COH together sometimes... but lament that those games will always be subject to someone else's design... whereas PNP (or VTT) RPGs allow us whatever our cretinous hearts desire. Plus we aren't forced to share our game time with wankerous strangers.