Quote from: HappyDaze on July 02, 2024, 01:35:30 AM

Quote from: Orphan81 on July 01, 2024, 04:13:18 PMI see that more as being "So you can play any character you want. Dragon Hatchling, Glitterboy, Juicer and Ley Line Walker. As long as they're good."

Isn't this the exact thing that many here object to in D&D and call "wokeshit" or some other disdainful variation?

In the traditional D&D settings the cultures presented had their own internal context which most certainly didn't include the emergent modern freakshow. In fact, the whole context of "half-orcs" were always a thing because they were never considered part of the human, dwarf, halfling, or elf civilizations. They were never part of the established milieu established or implied by Greyhawk, Forgotten Realms, Dragonlance, Mystara, etc. unless otherwise specified.

The cultural deconstruction happens at the table where every single one of us has allowed someone to play that snowflake race/class combination, but if you're a good GM you contextualized it. It's when people start pretending it doesn't matter, by ignorance or lack of experience that things turn into what we have.

Spelljammer was a good example of showing how to do it right - where anything goes, and on top of it was an entire new layer of metaculture. Much like Star Wars. Rifts is in that same category. You *can* have a party with all those options cited above. But its the GM's job to contextualize it.

There is no context in "Woke D&D" other than deconstruction of what was established for the purpose of pretending all cultures and races are the same - ironically which is only diversity of appearance, not actual diversity. Tieflings, Orcs, Humans, Elves, Duergar, hey it's all one big monoculture.

It most certainly isn't that in Rifts, but of course what one does at their table is their business.

For me, if I even use the Tomorrow Legion - there most certainly will be internal issues, heh. But I doubt I'll use them.

I played Rifts extensively right after I got the book for Christmas (1990 probably? It hadn't been out long) until about 1995. Hence, the entire "meta-plot" didn't really exist for me in the same sense as it does for a lot of people (namely the whole Tolkeen thing). After Africa came out, I sort of gave up on giving a fuck about the world books beyond using them for stats, mostly because I thought I was buying a sourcebook on Africa, not a giant adventure module. I mean, Atlantis and Vampire Kingdoms set the tone; lots of cool stuff with infinite possibilities, not some rail-roady bullshit that quite frankly was idiotic. England was kinda sorta there with the entire fake Merlin/Arthur nonsense, but it was a little easier to swallow due to the implications. Yes, I could buy into supernatural entities pretending to be heroes from Earth's past as an easy way to manipulate people and gain power. But then four retards show up riding animals and yeah...stupid.

Also think about how long it took to get stats for stuff like the Xiticixxxxicicic whatever, Lone Star, or fucking NORTHERN GUN. No, instead publish two books about South America with lameass Aztec-inspired stupidity I could have just gleaned from Vampire Kingdoms. And yes, Colombian guerillas. I mean...wtf. Just phoning it in.

tl;dr, that's some context for my answer here. For world books, as stated, Vampire Kingdoms and Atlantis tell me pretty much all I need to really know about Rifts Earth. Throw in the first two sourcebooks (the Mechanoid book does everything Africa wanted to do but like a billion times better with no railroad nonsense), Mercenaries, and Wormwood. That's what I'd consider essential and would ignore pretty much everything else except maybe to get stats. Injecting the meta-plot really destroyed the entire mystique of Rifts by turning one of the most badass kitchen sink sandbox settings into a boring ass world where everyone and their dog was running some sort of overarching domination scheme every other week. Realistically, the Splugorth and the Lord of the Deep could curb stomp every other threat if they felt like it (even the vampires) but just didn't because...they literally don't give a fuck. The standoff between the Coalition and the Federation of Magic should just be that: a standoff. Infinitely long cold war because they both know they sort of need each other just in case Atlantis gates in enough demons and shit to take over. No, instead you have literal idiots running both factions, doing idiotic bullshit.

So to get to my real answer before I just keep typing pissed off drivel, I think someone else said just use the main book, and that's it. I agree. Wtf are cyberknights? Where do their powers come from? Make it up. Not everything needs to be explained in detail, much less do you need to adhere to some brain-dead plot.

Just for Shits n' Giggles, I threw together a Human Tattooed Warrior. Forgot how long it can take to make a Savage Worlds character when you're not super-familiar with it.

Sort of a up-close warrior, but also one that can work covert. Sadly, some of the Tattoos from Rifts didn't get translated (Cloud Covered in Chains is WAY more powerful than the Savage version and no Skull in Thorns).

Since I believe in showing my work:

Tattooed Warrior

Human
Agility d4+1 = d6+1 (Impressive Physical Specimens) = d8
Smarts d4+1 = d6
Spirit d4+1 = d6
Strength d4+1 = d6+1 (2pts from Hindrances) = d8
Vigor d4+1 = d6+1 (Impressive Physical Specimens) = d8
Pace: 6
Parry: 7
Toughness: 14 (12 from Tattoos, +1 Brawny, +1 Brawler)
PPE: 17
ISP: 0
Strain: 6
Size: 0

Hindrances
Loyal (Minor)
Quirk (Minor)
Stubborn (Minor)
Thin Skinned (Minor)
Wanted: Minions of Splugorth (Minor)
Tattoo Insanity: Habit - Nicotine (Major)

Edges
Brawny (Impressive Physical Specimen)
Brawler (Trained for the Arena)
Danger Sense (Experience & Wisdom)
Free Runner (Trained for the Arena)
Gladiator (Maxi-Warrior)
Martial Artist (Maxi-Warrior)
Maxi-Warrior (Human - Adaptable)
Rapid Recharge (Tattooed Man)
Upgradeable (Upgradeable)

Accustomed to Horror: Free reroll on all Fear Checks

Skills (15pts)
Athletics* d4+1 (Trained for the Arena) = d6+1 (Training) = d8
Battle d4+1 = d6
Common Knowledge* d4+1 = d6
Fighting d4+1 (Trained for the Arena) = d6+1 (Maxi-Warrior) = d8
Intimidation d4+1 (1pt Hindrance)
Notice* d4+1 (1pt Hindrance) = d6
Occult d4
Persuasion* d4
Riding d4+1 = d6
Shooting d4 (Maxi-Warrior) = d6+1 (Training) = d8
Stealth* d4+1 = d6+1 = d8
Survival d4+1 = d6
Taunt d4+1 = d6
* - Core Skill

- Hero's Journey -
1 Roll: Experience & Wisdom
1 Roll: Training: Militia (Athletics +1, Shooting+2)
Narrative Hook: Authority Issues (on the run from Splugorth)

- Tattoos -
Simple Weapon: Seax (1 PPE)
Shield, Medium Round (2 PPE)
Serpent Battle Axe (4 PPE)
Bloody: Warhammer (4 PPE)
Animal: Black Panther (4 PPE)
Animal: Bull (4 PPE)
Monster: Ostrosaurus (6 PPE)
Monster: Chimera (5 PPE)
Power: Cracked Skull (4 PPE)
Power: Eye Pierced by Dagger (4 PPE)
Power: Heart, Staked (1 PPE)
Power: Warrior in Full Armor (4 PPE)

- Equipment -
10k in Credits for Gear
Northern Gun-S2 Survival Pack

Northern Gun Hi-Tech Light Crossbow (-600cr) <Rifts Sourcebook 1> w/soft-sided carrying case & shoulder strap
- Reflex Sight (-100cr)
Quiver (-25cr) w/x8 Medium Explosive Heads (-800cr) <Rifts Sourcebook 1>, x12 Broadheads for Hunting (-24cr)
LED Camouflage Cloak (-2500cr) <Sci-Fi Companion)
Communicator (-1500cr)
Infrared Distancing Binocs (-1200cr)
x1 Medi-Gel (200cr)
Rebreather (-2500cr) <Sci-Fi Companion>
Flashlight (-10cr)
Paracord, 30yds (30cr)
Smoke Grenades x4 (-40cr)
Zippo-style Lighter & Fuel, equal to 5 Lighters (10cr)
Cigarettes & Snuff for Nicotine Habit (-30cr)
Clothing: Hiking Boots (-100cr), Camo Fatigues (-20cr)
Transporation: Riding Horse & Saddle (-310cr)

I actually like the South America books! Definitely far more than the Coalition War books.

If I was running an ARZNO campaign post Tolkeen, I would use everything in the official books as just rumors. For each rumor the PCs hear, roll 1D6. 1-2 it's True! 3-4 it's False! 5-6 it's a Mixture of Truth and False.

Quote from: Spinachcat on July 02, 2024, 09:48:48 PMI actually like the South America books! Definitely far more than the Coalition War books.

You would...but then again, the Coalition War books suck so that's not hard anyway. The most egregious thing ever to happen in Rifts is changing the badass Coalition skull motif uniforms. 100% serious.

QuoteIf I was running an ARZNO campaign post Tolkeen, I would use everything in the official books as just rumors. For each rumor the PCs hear, roll 1D6. 1-2 it's True! 3-4 it's False! 5-6 it's a Mixture of Truth and False.

Erin Tarn is never wrong! Except when she is. After the face reveal, I decided she wasn't even real and just a bunch of dudes grifting, printing up books based purely on rumors and supposition.

Quote from: Brad on July 02, 2024, 09:57:15 PMThe most egregious thing ever to happen in Rifts is changing the badass Coalition skull motif uniforms.

I agree. It was a dumb change that made no sense other than Kevin Siembieda maybe wanted to cut out Kevin Long from the royalties pipeline due to their falling out. And because Kevin didn't keep CJ Carella under tighter control, the stupidly radical increase in power just made the game unbalanced. The Ultimate Edition of the corebook was, honestly, terrible.

Quote from: Brad on July 02, 2024, 09:57:15 PM

Quote from: Spinachcat on July 02, 2024, 09:48:48 PMI actually like the South America books! Definitely far more than the Coalition War books.

You would...but then again, the Coalition War books suck so that's not hard anyway. The most egregious thing ever to happen in Rifts is changing the badass Coalition skull motif uniforms. 100% serious.

Yeah. The old style was way more evocative. Perez makes the new style look good, but it's very hit and miss depending on the artist.



And some of it is downright awful.

Quote from: HappyDaze on July 02, 2024, 01:35:30 AM

Quote from: Orphan81 on July 01, 2024, 04:13:18 PMI see that more as being "So you can play any character you want. Dragon Hatchling, Glitterboy, Juicer and Ley Line Walker. As long as they're good."

Isn't this the exact thing that many here object to in D&D and call "wokeshit" or some other disdainful variation?

Rifts is literally the game where every player is encouraged to play as weird and unique a character as they want.

Like that is the entire appeal of the game, being able to play "anything".

You play DnD because you want a fantasy story.

You play Rifts because you want to be a cybernetic psychic Ratman with missle launchers on his shoulders fighting a Vampire Dragon from Hell.

Quote from: Orphan81 on July 03, 2024, 10:56:38 AMRifts is literally the game where every player is encouraged to play as weird and unique a character as they want.

Like that is the entire appeal of the game, being able to play "anything".

You play DnD because you want a fantasy story.

You play Rifts because you want to be a cybernetic psychic Ratman with missle launchers on his shoulders fighting a Vampire Dragon from Hell.

Exactly. Rifts entire conceit is you can basically play..well..anything. It's a gonzo, grimdark technomagickal cyberpunk post-apocalyptic world with alternate dimensions, mecha, demons, madness and vagabonds running around all trying to either murder one another or stop from being murdered. The only problem has been those times its forgotten its roots. Kevin never should have moved the timeline/metaplot forward. It was okay to give the broad strokes of the 'Great Calamities', but he should have left it at that. As stated upthread, Rifts: Africa was the start of the domino of problems. Juicer Uprisings, for example, should have been better managed (again, CJ Carella's penchant for making everything way out of proportion).

Not to mention the three goods in Dwenor are apparently one god who lost his marbles went insane and split his psyche into three parts.

So not sure how the godly equivalent of howling mad Murdoch is going to be willing to fight let alone be that effective against the CS.

Quote from: Orphan81 on July 03, 2024, 10:56:38 AMYou play DnD because you want a fantasy story.

What do you mean by a "fantasy story" here? Do you mean a Tolkien-esque world? Perhaps that's why you play D&D, but don't assume that's why I play it (when I did play it). You probably shouldn't assume that others are looking for that either, as it seems that many players do play it for the joy of being able to play (almost) anything.

Quote from: Abraxus on July 03, 2024, 01:00:03 PMNot to mention the three goods in Dwenor are apparently one god who lost his marbles went insane and split his psyche into three parts.

So not sure how the godly equivalent of howling mad Murdoch is going to be willing to fight let alone be that effective against the CS.

That too. As said, the problem is the metaplot. If the Siege of Tolkeen had been presented as just that: a siege instead of a battle, with the particulars left up to the individual GMs' games, that would be one thing. It's the main problem with having a setting where you really should just detail it and let the individual GM's do their own campaigns instead of having 'word from on high!'

Quote from: HappyDaze on July 03, 2024, 03:25:38 PM

Quote from: Orphan81 on July 03, 2024, 10:56:38 AMYou play DnD because you want a fantasy story.

What do you mean by a "fantasy story" here? Do you mean a Tolkien-esque world? Perhaps that's why you play D&D, but don't assume that's why I play it (when I did play it). You probably shouldn't assume that others are looking for that either, as it seems that many players do play it for the joy of being able to play (almost) anything.

There's lots of different types of Fantasy, but D&D is for playing Fantasy, whether Conan, Tolkien, or JRPG stuff.

I wouldn't use D&D to play a Superhero game.

I do use Mutants and Masterminds but that's not D&D.

You're being ridiculous because you wanna argue pendantics for some strange reason.

I assume you play D&D for Fantasy because the game literally has a class called Wizard in it.

If you're using it to play Hard Science fiction than your doing it wrong.

Quote from: HappyDaze on July 03, 2024, 03:25:38 PMWhat do you mean by a "fantasy story" here? Do you mean a Tolkien-esque world? Perhaps that's why you play D&D, but don't assume that's why I play it (when I did play it). You probably shouldn't assume that others are looking for that either, as it seems that many players do play it for the joy of being able to play (almost) anything.

Dude, can you stop trying to derail the thread with your fucking stupidity? This is about Rifts, not about how you want D&D to be Rifts.

Quote from: Orphan81 on July 03, 2024, 07:35:31 PM

Quote from: HappyDaze on July 03, 2024, 03:25:38 PM

Quote from: Orphan81 on July 03, 2024, 10:56:38 AMYou play DnD because you want a fantasy story.

What do you mean by a "fantasy story" here? Do you mean a Tolkien-esque world? Perhaps that's why you play D&D, but don't assume that's why I play it (when I did play it). You probably shouldn't assume that others are looking for that either, as it seems that many players do play it for the joy of being able to play (almost) anything.

There's lots of different types of Fantasy, but D&D is for playing Fantasy, whether Conan, Tolkien, or JRPG stuff.

I wouldn't use D&D to play a Superhero game.

I do use Mutants and Masterminds but that's not D&D.

You're being ridiculous because you wanna argue pendantics for some strange reason.

I assume you play D&D for Fantasy because the game literally has a class called Wizard in it.

If you're using it to play Hard Science fiction than your doing it wrong.

Fantasy can include all sorts of weird shit. Early D&D included more sci-fi elements than current D&D generally does, but current D & D typically allows for a much wider (and wierder) array of races (or species or ancestries or whatever term you want to use).