Quote from: HappyDaze on June 30, 2024, 11:16:50 AM

Quote from: oggsmash on June 30, 2024, 08:23:43 AMThe problem is the setting also presents that the CS is the only reason there are substantial human populations still on the continent.

No, there is another...

This is Savage Rifts. In Savage Rifts, the Tomorrow Legion takes up the roll of the 'good guys' without being human-exclusive. They are very clearly a 'progressive' band out to oppose the 'conservative' CS. That isn't necessarily a bad thing except that the (relatively small amount of) material on them gushes too hard on them being just so damn goody-goody (and the same material emphasizes that the CS are oh so nasty).

Pinnacle's Staff is more on the conservative side of the Political Spectrum than the Progressive, so I wouldn't necessarily label the Tomorrow Legion as "Progressive". It's more a default 'good guy group that goes and fights bad guys' to make the GM's job a lot easier.

It's the same reason they created the "Twilight Legion" in Deadlands. It's a purely GM centric creation in order to make running the game easier. "You're all part of Good Guy Legion. You have an HQ and people to give you missions to go and fight bad guys."

Did Savage Rifts get rid of The Vanguard and the Psi Battalion?

Quote from: KingCheops on June 30, 2024, 01:05:48 PMDid Savage Rifts get rid of The Vanguard and the Psi Battalion?

Not that I'm aware of, at least not that I remember. The CS is relatively unchanged other than mechanically due to the game being different. And there are still The Republicans/NEMA descendants out there undercover doing undercover shit.

Quote from: Orphan81 on June 30, 2024, 12:25:16 PMPinnacle's Staff is more on the conservative side of the Political Spectrum than the Progressive, so I wouldn't necessarily label the Tomorrow Legion as "Progressive". It's more a default 'good guy group that goes and fights bad guys' to make the GM's job a lot easier.

Regardless of the politics of the writers (which I know very little about), the Tomorrow Legion is heavy into diversity and everyone has a place in it fighting to change the world for the better (as they see it). They reject the current power stuctures and do things their own new way because they think it will work out better for all. That's not progressive thinking?

Is Savage Rifts intrinsically linked to the Rifts setting? I'm asking because I was thinking of using the rules for a science fantasy setting of my own making (not set on Earth), but I don't know if Savage Rifts is too dependent on the Rifts lore.

Quote from: Rhymer88 on July 01, 2024, 03:37:52 AMIs Savage Rifts intrinsically linked to the Rifts setting? I'm asking because I was thinking of using the rules for a science fantasy setting of my own making (not set on Earth), but I don't know if Savage Rifts is too dependent on the Rifts lore.

woof!Long weekend, I need to catch up to you guys.

Savage Rifts is simply the Palladium Rifts game translated to the Savage Worlds Ruleset. The Savage Worlds rules themselves *expanded* to embrace the powerlevels of Rifts. Ironically the first edition of the rules occurred before the SWADE Core rules dropped, which they then updated a year later.

The best part about this is now the SWADE Core Rules now have expansion options to truly behemoth levels. And because the rules are unified across all their lines and Companion rules, you can effectively use the ruleset easily and effectively for just about any genre.

That said - Savage Worlds is for GM's that don't mind tinkering around with their games, and they give you every option imaginable, but NONE of it is *required*. In other words the core mechanics are flexible enough to do most of what you're needing 90% of the time.

So Savage Rifts is simply the Rifts setting via the Savage Worlds rules. The only major setting additions they added was the Tomorrow Legion, which as mentioned above is for GM's that want a faction that simple are "doing Good Guy Stuff" against whatever "villains" you want to focus on. They do not shy away from anything with the CS, but you also have to take into consideration that in order for Savage Rifts books to work, they have to abbreviate the content to get to the point. The Palladium books are MUCH larger and much more dense in information. Savage Worlds books gives you a solid highlight without taking you down the insane rabbit-holes that exist in Rifts (see: True Atlanteans).

The Empires of Humanity does a decent job of portraying the complexities of the Coalition States not as simply "Space Nazis". I honestly don't get that take, when it's said over and over even in the Palladium books, where the in-game critics of the CS say explicitly: despite their fascist nature, the CS effectively saved humanity in North America. You don't have to like it, it might seem heavy handed, but it's complex because in doing the hard-thing they did a lot of bad stuff.

You can easily run a CS campaign in Savage Rifts, they give you more than enough material to do whatever you want. No they didn't have enough space to condense 35 Worldbooks worth of content into a few Savage Worlds books, but they give you all the pertinent highlights required. They don't shy away from anything.

Because it's only the highlights, it gives you tons of elbow-room to do your own thing. It's *Rifts* anything can happen. Even better, since the Savage Worlds SWADE Edition Companion rules are totally interchangeable, you can literally lift any other SWADE Content and toss them in there or take your Rifts characters elsewhere as needed. You can easily go offroading with Palladium Content that hasn't been produced yet as well.

Quote from: Ratman_tf on June 28, 2024, 04:04:16 PMLike a lot of Rifts and Palladium Books, there's a lot of great ideas, poorly executed. I take the "lore" as broad ideas. Tolkeen used magic to counter the tech advantages of the Coalition. They had a strong start because the Coalition forces were used to small scale police actions. During the war, the Coalition toughened up and got smart and ruthless. Tolkeen, already tempted by various "evil" forces, fell to demonic sources in their desperation. The Coalition won, but at a huge cost in resources and manpower.

This is my general take as well. I'll create more nuance as needed, but only if it matters.

Quote from: Ratman_tf on June 28, 2024, 04:04:16 PMThe Federation of Magic is kept in check by it's fractured nature. So the idea that they stayed out and watched their rivals fall is in synch with this. Dunscon is using the fall of Tolkien to grab more power and unite the various faction within the Federation. The threat is that with the fall of Tolkien, it's going to be far easier to unite people against the Coalition. And Dunscon is just as much of an asshole as the rulers in the Coalition. If the Federation wins, Dunscon is just going to set up a magic based empire in it's place.

I have a lot of problems with this as it pertains to the Federation. Your take is precisely as it is presented in capsule form in the Savage Rifts edition. The problem I have is this:

1) People that understand magic, at the highest level, understand its pitfalls with the dark side at *minimum* on a general level. In fact to be an Archmage or something, you'd have to know *something* about the Dark arts.

2) There is *no such thing* as "Dark Arts for Good Uses". Sure there are some side-cases you could make, but they're intensely marginal.

3) The "Fractious Nature" of the Federation makes a post-modern argument for why it's tolerated. It presumes that all things being equal, "magic is just magic". So any nation running their magical society deserves the same respect and kinship as any other in the face of something like the CS. I completely disagree with this RAW as a premise Based on #1 and #2. Mind you - I'm talking about the books as written, because what you posted above is pretty much that (so this isn't directed at you Ratman). The rulers of Dweomer KNOW how evil Dunscon is. They know it and because they know it, they know its a million times worse than anything the CS is about. By Dweomer and the other Federation members not doing anything about it - they ratify the very worst takes the CS accuses them of.

Because they are consorting with Demons that want to take over the world and devour everyone in their path, and drink their souls and go hogwild. I don't like the presentation of the Federation, and all their power - Dweomer is every bit as powerful as Chi-Town (at least defensively). They should be cleaning HOUSE. You could never hope to trust them in a fight against the CS with "allies" like Dunscon.

Quote from: Ratman_tf on June 28, 2024, 04:04:16 PMGood part of the Siege of Tolkeen storyline. All the fallout should make for great RP scenarios. Fallen knights, bitter Knights, and the order trying to put itself back together.

Agreed. I'm already cooking up some real RP conflict now.

Quote from: Ratman_tf on June 28, 2024, 04:04:16 PMFirst, I'd play into the Coalition being depleted by the war. I like my Rifts to lean into the post-apoc side of things, and any nation state in the world should be leery of a big war like this. Their existence is precarious and they have limited resources. This should be a time of consolidation and rebuilding for the Coalition for years if not decades to come. Giving other factions a chance to react to the war and plan for future Coalition aggression. Any big events like the Xiticics problem or the invasion from Hell storyline should be handled mostly by other factions. The Coalition should have their hands full just keeping the monsters off their lawn, and not be in a position to make any big moves. More likely they'll send out special forces units to tip events against the threats. If they wind up helping D-Bees and wizards in the process, well it's a situation of lesser evils for now.

I can't tell if the idea of Tolkeen running instead of standing and fighting is a good idea or not. Whenever I read the parts in the sourcebooks about Erin Tarn talking about moving Tolkeen, I just think to myself that this ceeds territory to the Coalition and makes them stronger. Eventually the enemies of the CS will fall, one by one, instead of facing a united resistance. I have a mental image of the day when Plato and Erin and everybody will be standing with their backs to the ocean while the Coalition advances to literally push them into the sea where the Splugorth are waiting to scoop them up and turn them into slaves.
But it's an intentionally contentious situation, like most of the setting, designed to generate adventures.

One thing I really like to lean into is the idea that the world is crazy. I mean literally insane. Putting skulls on your robots is the least nutty idea in a world full of magic and demons and aliens and time travellers. You can meet the actual Billy the Kid, the actual Merlin, and a host of pretenders and con men. This is a world that bases it's societies as much on TV shows and movies recovered from the previous civilizations as real history. A world where turning yourself into a cyborg or juicer or crazy may be the only viable option to save your town from demons. This is not a sane and rational world, and players shouldn't expect that. Or be pleasantly surprised at moments of sanity.

Oh, and here's a rules bugaboo that I like to nip in the bud. A lot of complaints not just in Rifts but any system with teleportation in general is the Scry/Teleport/Smite argument.  My solution is Edna Mode, "No teleporting!". Not as a quick and easy mode of transportation. Keep it super rare, super hard to execute, and give it lots of limitations and restrictions.

All good advice and well taken.

Quote from: Omega on June 28, 2024, 10:44:31 PMI still have all the unfinished illustration work we did for the ill fated and never released Rifts: Arctic Circle book the designer just handed off to me and quit gaming after dealing with Kevin.

Ooo.... you wanna share any of it with us?

Quote from: HappyDaze on July 01, 2024, 01:34:54 AM

Quote from: Orphan81 on June 30, 2024, 12:25:16 PMPinnacle's Staff is more on the conservative side of the Political Spectrum than the Progressive, so I wouldn't necessarily label the Tomorrow Legion as "Progressive". It's more a default 'good guy group that goes and fights bad guys' to make the GM's job a lot easier.

Regardless of the politics of the writers (which I know very little about), the Tomorrow Legion is heavy into diversity and everyone has a place in it fighting to change the world for the better (as they see it). They reject the current power stuctures and do things their own new way because they think it will work out better for all. That's not progressive thinking?

I'm not so sure it's that loosey goosey. I mean you pretty much have to be *good* to function with them, and they are militaristic - they have ranks etc. They read to me like something that might come out of Tolkeen had they not gone darkside.

I see the Tomorrow Legion good for one thing: to get nice soft D&D players into Rifts without feeling like they've been dipped in a vat of blood first.

Normally I don't care for that kind of kids-gloves shit in my campaigns. But I'm realizing just how soft a lot of modern noob gamers are. Most would run from Rifts screaming if I just tossed them into the fryer.

Quote from: tenbones on July 01, 2024, 03:07:09 PM

Quote from: Ratman_tf on June 28, 2024, 04:04:16 PMThe Federation of Magic is kept in check by it's fractured nature. So the idea that they stayed out and watched their rivals fall is in synch with this. Dunscon is using the fall of Tolkien to grab more power and unite the various faction within the Federation. The threat is that with the fall of Tolkien, it's going to be far easier to unite people against the Coalition. And Dunscon is just as much of an asshole as the rulers in the Coalition. If the Federation wins, Dunscon is just going to set up a magic based empire in it's place.

I have a lot of problems with this as it pertains to the Federation. Your take is precisely as it is presented in capsule form in the Savage Rifts edition. The problem I have is this:

1) People that understand magic, at the highest level, understand its pitfalls with the dark side at *minimum* on a general level. In fact to be an Archmage or something, you'd have to know *something* about the Dark arts.

2) There is *no such thing* as "Dark Arts for Good Uses". Sure there are some side-cases you could make, but they're intensely marginal.

3) The "Fractious Nature" of the Federation makes a post-modern argument for why it's tolerated. It presumes that all things being equal, "magic is just magic". So any nation running their magical society deserves the same respect and kinship as any other in the face of something like the CS. I completely disagree with this RAW as a premise Based on #1 and #2. Mind you - I'm talking about the books as written, because what you posted above is pretty much that (so this isn't directed at you Ratman). The rulers of Dweomer KNOW how evil Dunscon is. They know it and because they know it, they know its a million times worse than anything the CS is about. By Dweomer and the other Federation members not doing anything about it - they ratify the very worst takes the CS accuses them of.

Because they are consorting with Demons that want to take over the world and devour everyone in their path, and drink their souls and go hogwild. I don't like the presentation of the Federation, and all their power - Dweomer is every bit as powerful as Chi-Town (at least defensively). They should be cleaning HOUSE. You could never hope to trust them in a fight against the CS with "allies" like Dunscon.

The problem with Dewomer is that it's ruled by a trio of aloof demigods. The kind of dudes who know bad things are afoot, but spend more time pondering the situation than doing anything about it. They're kinda like the Ents from LOTR. Powerful enough to topple Dunscon, but extremely reluctant to get involved.

Quote from: HappyDaze on July 01, 2024, 01:34:54 AMRegardless of the politics of the writers (which I know very little about), the Tomorrow Legion is heavy into diversity and everyone has a place in it fighting to change the world for the better (as they see it). They reject the current power stuctures and do things their own new way because they think it will work out better for all. That's not progressive thinking?

.......
I see that more as being "So you can play any character you want. Dragon Hatchling, Glitterboy, Juicer and Ley Line Walker. As long as they're good."

Like again, this is the group specifically made so the GM can let his players go wild with Rifts and have a reason why they go and fight bad guys. Savage Rifts specifically assumes you're playing Tomorrow Legion characters.

I just, don't see any sort of political intentions here, it's purely a device so the GM and players can get to playing as soon as possible.

"Okay so you guys are heading towards old New Mexico because there's been reports of Vampires sneaking across the border and attacking small settlements on the Rio Grande."

Well it doesn't really assume that you have to do Tomorrow Legion. They say it many times in their own podcasts. Yes it's there to introduce new players to the concept of Rifts. I don't like it, but I do get it.

Rifts is *not* an easy setting to simply dive into. Not if you intend to play it with fidelity. And consider the modern gamers that are coming over from 5e D&D. If you're bringing those players directly into Palladium Rifts it's like bringing Taylor Swift fans to go check out Sabaton.

If you intend on keeping them, you gotta give them a handhold. Then you can explore and go offroading. Then you can take them to the Sabaton concert, then go down to Vampire Kingdoms and see how they like Cannibal Corpse.

Quote from: tenbones on July 01, 2024, 04:47:46 PMWell it doesn't really assume that you have to do Tomorrow Legion. They say it many times in their own podcasts. Yes it's there to introduce new players to the concept of Rifts. I don't like it, but I do get it.

Rifts is *not* an easy setting to simply dive into. Not if you intend to play it with fidelity. And consider the modern gamers that are coming over from 5e D&D. If you're bringing those players directly into Palladium Rifts it's like bringing Taylor Swift fans to go check out Sabaton.

If you intend on keeping them, you gotta give them a handhold. Then you can explore and go offroading. Then you can take them to the Sabaton concert, then go down to Vampire Kingdoms and see how they like Cannibal Corpse.

I think this is more an issue with newer players vs experienced players in General. When you're brand new to RPGs the idea that you can do "Anything you want" is overwhelming. The whole "Old man in the Tavern with a map to treasure hiring people" is a trope for a reason.

Dungeons themselves are the original format for tabletop top rpgs entirely because they give the DM complete control of the environment with hard barriers the PCs can't go past... and a clear objective in the end of the maze.

More experienced players are able to grasp the concept of a Sandbox and build their own goals into their characters.

But there are lots of people who even with experience, still prefer to play 'on rails'. I don't see the Tomorrow Legion as 'training wheels' so much as easy way to engage with the setting and have clear goals.

Definitely though Rifts is not super easy to just run into right away., It's a very detailed setting with a lot of different things, but that's why so many people love it.

But then, I think for real RIFTS heads like you Tenbones you love the setting because you wanna *LIVE* in it (I mean not really but fantasy wise you do) and you want Players who have that same passion to explore the nooks and crannies of such a detailed and in depth world..

So the idea of "Your boss says go kill these bad guys over here" is like missing everything you love about the setting. The idea of seeing what strange weirdness over the next hill is and how your players will interact with it.

Correct me if I'm wrong though.

Quote from: Orphan81 on July 01, 2024, 06:30:00 PM

Quote from: tenbones on July 01, 2024, 04:47:46 PMWell it doesn't really assume that you have to do Tomorrow Legion. They say it many times in their own podcasts. Yes it's there to introduce new players to the concept of Rifts. I don't like it, but I do get it.

Rifts is *not* an easy setting to simply dive into. Not if you intend to play it with fidelity. And consider the modern gamers that are coming over from 5e D&D. If you're bringing those players directly into Palladium Rifts it's like bringing Taylor Swift fans to go check out Sabaton.

If you intend on keeping them, you gotta give them a handhold. Then you can explore and go offroading. Then you can take them to the Sabaton concert, then go down to Vampire Kingdoms and see how they like Cannibal Corpse.

I think this is more an issue with newer players vs experienced players in General. When you're brand new to RPGs the idea that you can do "Anything you want" is overwhelming. The whole "Old man in the Tavern with a map to treasure hiring people" is a trope for a reason.

Dungeons themselves are the original format for tabletop top rpgs entirely because they give the DM complete control of the environment with hard barriers the PCs can't go past... and a clear objective in the end of the maze.

More experienced players are able to grasp the concept of a Sandbox and build their own goals into their characters.

Even experienced players need some context. I had an illuminating exchange with one of my players. I asked "What does your character want to do?" and he replied "Rule the world!", which is a valid response, but doesn't give me much to work with as a GM. After thinking about it, I realized, even if he were going to rule the world, there's got to be steps in there. Resources to gather, opponents to defeat, what are those resources? Who are those opponents?
I usually start any campaign on rails just to get things rolling and give me as the GM a chance to set up the world state and then feed rumors and clues to the players giving them context for what they want to pursue.

Quote from: Orphan81 on July 01, 2024, 04:13:18 PMI see that more as being "So you can play any character you want. Dragon Hatchling, Glitterboy, Juicer and Ley Line Walker. As long as they're good."

Isn't this the exact thing that many here object to in D&D and call "wokeshit" or some other disdainful variation?