So, I'm firing up a Savage Worlds Rifts game and I'm looking for Rifters out there with more knowledge about the lore than myself. But this thread is open to all Rifts (and therefore Palladium settings) and any other setting that could potentially fit into a Rifts game.
My campaign is set in Arzno months after the fall of Tolkeen. I have some players that have never played Rifts before. She's playing a Dragon hatchling (which fits since like her hatchling, she doesn't know jack shit about Rifts) that was an egg picked up by another player, an Anti-Monster from South America, who is traveling back to Arzno with a Arzno AMC team that was doing work in South America. The other players are a local Techno-Wizard from Arzno, and two newly knighted Cyberknights that are going to Arzno to look for fallen CK's that are hiding in the region to see if they can be rehabilitated or be brought to justice (and largely to suss out rumors of what precisely happened in Tolkeen). My last player is... *still deciding* - all I know is he wants to be a True Atlantean-something.
Setting Conceits
I'm playing it straight up the middle but giving myself some elbow-room to play with established lore. So Arzno is Arzno as written (I'm using all the Palladium books as deeper reference) but the events of Tolkeen I know are contentious, as I'm still plowing through the Coalition Wars books. But I'm interested in hearing people's opinions about the following:
1) Tolkeen. What are your thoughts about Tolkeen and pre/post Coalition Wars. What do you all think about what actually happened and if you have a different take or rather have a more nuanced view in your head-canon of what happened?
2) What do you think the Federation of Magic's views are on the *actual* things that went on in Tolkeen towards the end? Do you guys believe that Tolkeen would have went that hard on going to the Dark Side vs. just bailing the fuck out?
3) The Cyberknight Schism - I couldn't help but feel this feels a LOT like Knights of the Old Republic but uglier. Like it? Hate it? I find it very compelling for anyone playing a CK to deal with. 47% of the CK's went to defend Tolkeen.
4) Anyone got some cool Old West ideas I could mine for my campaign?
5) Music suggestions? Thematics you use to convey Rifts in general?
Lastly - feel free to toss in any ideas an concepts based on Rifts you like/dislike or lore-traps that I might not have sussed out yet. This is not a thread just about system (but feel free to talk about them here), I'm a little more interested in the lore. The caveat here is I *am* using Savage Worlds which has a lot of stuff converted, but there is a several metric shit-tons of OCC's and RCC's that haven't been touched yet. So if you have a pet Palladium Rift thing you want to geek out on - go for it.
Not a major Rifts expert by far, but I have friends who are and have talked a little about the Tolkeen stuff.
Probably the number one reason it's so contentious is the books detailing everything took for fucking ever to come out, some were unnecessary, and some even came out in an order that was less than helpful. So like, the maps of what the city of Tolkeen looked like came out in the last book, after it had already been destroyed. There was also a ton of major Retcons with how magic worked (Suddenly spell failure being a thing) and what the Cyberknights were even about.
I think a few years now that it's all happened you can make the actual fall make more sense. But getting away from that, these are the details as I understand them.
From what I understand, Tolkeen *WAS* the gleaming, shining, city on the Hill. It was Camelot, Minis Tirith, ect. It was the Magic and Humans all working together for the greater good...
From a design perspective, I can see why destroying it is a good move. It serves as an excellent rallying cry, gives lots of motivation against those who destroyed it, and for PCs to potentially establish something even greater.
I know lots of people loved Tolkeen, but I think a perfectly functioning Tolkeen doesn't lend itself to a lot of Drama. That's the problem lots of people don't see, a super happy functioning area with no threats isn't a great place to adventure.
Now the corruption of Tolkeen is contentious for these very same issues, but from a design and story standpoint I see why it was done. If the Shining City on the hill can fall to corruption, than anyone can. It's a nice cautionary tale that no one is above or beyond reproach, but more importantly....there are certain things not worth doing no matter how desperate you are..
Storywise, it seems the *right thing* to do for Tolkeen was to flee. That under their own power they never stood a chance against the massive army of the Coalition. Which is what made them desperate and start calling up Demons to fight on their behalf. Tolkeen was 'blinded by hatred' is the word used... and fell to the Darkside... Again from what I understand storywise... it stopped being about saving themselves and became more about killing as many of the Coalition as they could.
So I think in a post Tolkeen world... You do have the many refugees that did survive and remember how it used to be... and then you also have the cautionary tale of *why* it fell... Rather than using all their magic to flee and rebuild, they wanted to fight an impossible battle and used spite that caused them to fall to darkness.
And in a way it helps further Coalition propaganda, "This magical city everyone thought was good and tolerated DBs? Look at them, they were demon worshippers in the end."
There's a lot of fertile ground to mine there for things in the background..
Quote from: tenbones on June 28, 2024, 11:49:20 AMSetting Conceits
I'm playing it straight up the middle but giving myself some elbow-room to play with established lore. So Arzno is Arzno as written (I'm using all the Palladium books as deeper reference) but the events of Tolkeen I know are contentious, as I'm still plowing through the Coalition Wars books. But I'm interested in hearing people's opinions about the following:
1) Tolkeen. What are your thoughts about Tolkeen and pre/post Coalition Wars. What do you all think about what actually happened and if you have a different take or rather have a more nuanced view in your head-canon of what happened?
Like a lot of Rifts and Palladium Books, there's a lot of great ideas, poorly executed. I take the "lore" as broad ideas. Tolkeen used magic to counter the tech advantages of the Coalition. They had a strong start because the Coalition forces were used to small scale police actions. During the war, the Coalition toughened up and got smart and ruthless. Tolkeen, already tempted by various "evil" forces, fell to demonic sources in their desperation. The Coalition won, but at a huge cost in resources and manpower.
Quote2) What do you think the Federation of Magic's views are on the *actual* things that went on in Tolkeen towards the end? Do you guys believe that Tolkeen would have went that hard on going to the Dark Side vs. just bailing the fuck out?
The Federation of Magic is kept in check by it's fractured nature. So the idea that they stayed out and watched their rivals fall is in synch with this. Dunscon is using the fall of Tolkien to grab more power and unite the various faction within the Federation. The threat is that with the fall of Tolkien, it's going to be far easier to unite people against the Coalition. And Dunscon is just as much of an asshole as the rulers in the Coalition. If the Federation wins, Dunscon is just going to set up a magic based empire in it's place.
Quote3) The Cyberknight Schism - I couldn't help but feel this feels a LOT like Knights of the Old Republic but uglier. Like it? Hate it? I find it very compelling for anyone playing a CK to deal with. 47% of the CK's went to defend Tolkeen.
Good part of the Siege of Tolkeen storyline. All the fallout should make for great RP scenarios. Fallen knights, bitter Knights, and the order trying to put itself back together.
Quote4) Anyone got some cool Old West ideas I could mine for my campaign?
5) Music suggestions? Thematics you use to convey Rifts in general?
Lastly - feel free to toss in any ideas an concepts based on Rifts you like/dislike or lore-traps that I might not have sussed out yet. This is not a thread just about system (but feel free to talk about them here), I'm a little more interested in the lore. The caveat here is I *am* using Savage Worlds which has a lot of stuff converted, but there is a several metric shit-tons of OCC's and RCC's that haven't been touched yet. So if you have a pet Palladium Rift thing you want to geek out on - go for it.
First, I'd play into the Coalition being depleted by the war. I like my Rifts to lean into the post-apoc side of things, and any nation state in the world should be leery of a big war like this. Their existence is precarious and they have limited resources. This should be a time of consolidation and rebuilding for the Coalition for years if not decades to come. Giving other factions a chance to react to the war and plan for future Coalition aggression. Any big events like the Xiticics problem or the invasion from Hell storyline should be handled mostly by other factions. The Coalition should have their hands full just keeping the monsters off their lawn, and not be in a position to make any big moves. More likely they'll send out special forces units to tip events against the threats. If they wind up helping D-Bees and wizards in the process, well it's a situation of lesser evils for now.
I can't tell if the idea of Tolkeen running instead of standing and fighting is a good idea or not. Whenever I read the parts in the sourcebooks about Erin Tarn talking about moving Tolkeen, I just think to myself that this ceeds territory to the Coalition and makes them stronger. Eventually the enemies of the CS will fall, one by one, instead of facing a united resistance. I have a mental image of the day when Plato and Erin and everybody will be standing with their backs to the ocean while the Coalition advances to literally push them into the sea where the Splugorth are waiting to scoop them up and turn them into slaves.
But it's an intentionally contentious situation, like most of the setting, designed to generate adventures.
One thing I really like to lean into is the idea that the world is crazy. I mean literally insane. Putting skulls on your robots is the least nutty idea in a world full of magic and demons and aliens and time travellers. You can meet the actual Billy the Kid, the actual Merlin, and a host of pretenders and con men. This is a world that bases it's societies as much on TV shows and movies recovered from the previous civilizations as real history. A world where turning yourself into a cyborg or juicer or crazy may be the only viable option to save your town from demons. This is not a sane and rational world, and players shouldn't expect that. Or be pleasantly surprised at moments of sanity.
Oh, and here's a rules bugaboo that I like to nip in the bud. A lot of complaints not just in Rifts but any system with teleportation in general is the Scry/Teleport/Smite argument. My solution is Edna Mode, "No teleporting!". Not as a quick and easy mode of transportation. Keep it super rare, super hard to execute, and give it lots of limitations and restrictions.
Quote from: Orphan81 on June 28, 2024, 01:17:30 PMNot a major Rifts expert by far, but I have friends who are and have talked a little about the Tolkeen stuff.
Probably the number one reason it's so contentious is the books detailing everything took for fucking ever to come out, some were unnecessary, and some even came out in an order that was less than helpful. So like, the maps of what the city of Tolkeen looked like came out in the last book, after it had already been destroyed. There was also a ton of major Retcons with how magic worked (Suddenly spell failure being a thing) and what the Cyberknights were even about.
This is a thing. For a long time there, Rifts was all over the world and then the multiverse before finally settling down in North America. Siembieda should have focused on one region and the region with the most work put into it was North America. But we got decades of Africa and Undersea and South America, some of them fine books by themselves, but it meant, like you said, that a lot of important areas like Tolkeen never even got a world book before important events set in them.
We still don't have a gorram book for Lazlo despite it being a pretty important place.
The only thing I would suggest is to go full on B5/DS9 with the campaign and have the Mechanoids invade in such overwhelming force that the Players must gather the nations together that hate each other into an uneasy alliance to beat the Mechanoids back.
I play and GM a lot of Savage Rifts including doing a little playtesting for Pinnacle.
Ratman_tf gave a good overview of Tolkeen and the Federation of Magic. Sorcerer's Revenge from the Palldium Tolkeen War series gets into Tolkeen's dealing with demons to turn the tide in the war against the Coalition. Tolkeen is tired of fighting a defensive war and this is kind of like a nuclear option. There are some internal factions pushing for it and it comes down to the Dragon Kings not really caring who gets hurt and revealing they have the power to fracture themselves into 'shadow' versions of themselves to wreak havoc without really risking themselves and causing them to really take a 'scorched earth' approach. This is what results in the Cyber-Knights fracturing. The more war-like sticking with Tolkeen while the rest attempting to walk away. Might be fun to explore since you have a Dragon Hatchling.
As far as other ideas, the Coalition had the 'Dirty Thirty', a division of spec ops who hunted and killed D-Bees with Uranium rounds and had free reign to do whatever they wanted. You could totally do a Bleeding Kansas style post war campaign with these guys still active.
Since you mentioned Arzno, you can always default to vampires. Vampires are rampant even though no one wants to believe it. Operation Night Owl is the Coalitions undercover ops to keep them in check and there is very little information on it. You've also got Reids Rangers in Fort Tombstone not to far away with their version of a nuclear option with a zombie army. On a smaller scale, a campaign playing off John Carpenter's Vampires seems like a lot of fun to me.
Even if you don't focus on vampires, Arzno does big business with TW stuff. Gun running stuff for the Black Market or having your TW get in debt with the Black Market could be fun. TW gems are expensive, easy to get indebted that way. From a mechanical standpoint, consider giving some of the Gizmoteer/TW edges for free to your TW. It won't hurt anything and they need the boost I have found.
Finally, I highly recommend Terror on the Dark Frontier. It's modular enough to pick and choose what you want and full of good ideas. But I am a little biased here.
Quote from: Chainsaw Surgeon on June 28, 2024, 05:15:46 PMSince you mentioned Arzno, you can always default to vampires. Vampires are rampant even though no one wants to believe it. Operation Night Owl is the Coalitions undercover ops to keep them in check and there is very little information on it. You've also got Reids Rangers in Fort Tombstone not to far away with their version of a nuclear option with a zombie army. On a smaller scale, a campaign playing off John Carpenter's Vampires seems like a lot of fun to me.
Vampire Kingdoms is a really strong World Book, one of the best for Rifts, and not using Vampires in some capacity for an Arzno campaign would be a shame. Not all the time, don't want to burn out on any single threat, but they should be in the campaign somewhere.
I still have all the unfinished illustration work we did for the ill fated and never released Rifts: Arctic Circle book the designer just handed off to me and quit gaming after dealing with Kevin.
This is contrary to what you may be doing, but I just ignore the whole war thing ever happening and base the setting as it was in the very first RIFTs book. I do not love meta events and I really think having a massive full scale war for the Coalition is beyond stupid. Teleportation/magic/dragons who can appear in your bedroom are not the sort of opponents you want to declare open and total war against. That makes zero strategic sense.
Quote from: oggsmash on June 29, 2024, 02:07:06 PMThis is contrary to what you may be doing, but I just ignore the whole war thing ever happening and base the setting as it was in the very first RIFTs book. I do not love meta events and I really think having a massive full scale war for the Coalition is beyond stupid. Teleportation/magic/dragons who can appear in your bedroom are not the sort of opponents you want to declare open and total war against. That makes zero strategic sense.
If teleportation is the issue, then any anti-magic faction of sufficient size and belligerence would be wiped out long before they became a threat. Rifts would be a world of competing magic kingdoms and no Coalition as we know it would be able to exist.
Honestly, I think the main problem has been, all along, that Kevin didn't keep a tighter lid on CJ Carella's mind numbingly bad power creep. I honestly prefer the original concept hinted at that the 'Skeleton Warriors' (souped up CS Armor) were CS troops from an alternate reality that was part of the 'Coalition Conspiracy Theory' put forward in the Rifts Index & Adventures Book One (from way back in 1996). They fit perfectly with the original concept of Chaos Earth from The Rifter #7 (when it was going to be a Dimension Book instead of the past of Rifts Earth). I basically ignore the Tolkeen war since moving the timeline forward did nothing but make things worse.
Quote from: Ratman_tf on June 29, 2024, 04:33:18 PMQuote from: oggsmash on June 29, 2024, 02:07:06 PMThis is contrary to what you may be doing, but I just ignore the whole war thing ever happening and base the setting as it was in the very first RIFTs book. I do not love meta events and I really think having a massive full scale war for the Coalition is beyond stupid. Teleportation/magic/dragons who can appear in your bedroom are not the sort of opponents you want to declare open and total war against. That makes zero strategic sense.
If teleportation is the issue, then any anti-magic faction of sufficient size and belligerence would be wiped out long before they became a threat. Rifts would be a world of competing magic kingdoms and no Coalition as we know it would be able to exist.
That would be IF you forced the magic users to work together. A huge war of aggression creates that scenario and would be a poor strategic move. Now if the CS used magic/mages themselves as hard counters to that sort of thing...it makes a good deal more sense. I keep expecting to see the world book where we find out the ruling family are high level ley line walkers and that is how they have dodged getting murdered in bed for all these years. It would be the issue though, outright fights its a toss up/on the tech side insofar as raw power. However assassination being a thing the tech side would never have any leadership last more than a few weeks or months. It also made no sense to paint the coalition being full of illiterates operating and producing extreme volumes of high tech weapons and gear. You would not have to make a population illiterate to be against having aliens around after roughly a quarter of the population knows or is related to someone killed by inhuman monsters or by humanoid aliens. People would be pretty anti alien(dbee) quite on their own no matter how well read they were.
I also like the approach of the first book where they allowed Coalition PCs. This seems heavily discouraged in the current meta where the Coalition are full on the worst totalitarian nazis imaginable waging war everywhere (which logistically would be impossible) and are painted as being horribly evil for championing...humans as the inheritors of the Earth. I think having tech bad guys is a great idea...but "Human Supremacists" as being a bad thing...in a world where aliens and monsters constantly raid, invade and kill humans? It seems he was going for a WH40k vibe but wanted to be extra special sure the reader knew the CS MUST be the baddies so he made them "nazis" (which the imperium of man sort of is as well in 40k) the players MUST oppose. The problem is the setting also presents that the CS is the only reason there are substantial human populations still on the continent.
I guess the problem for me is its pretty obvious KS really wants to paint a political picture that makes zero sense with the conditions of his setting as some representation of people who want fewer immigrants as bad and people who are antimagic as some sort of zealot place holders for Christians (I get strong vibes he was around for the satanic panic and still has a jack chick grudge).
The really interesting thing though, is the rules for SW make the CS survival and odds much, much greater IMO as a game system for surviving things like those assassinations.
In any event I always run a Rifts game as a sandbox and I did use the current meta assumptions of Savage Rifts. I just have the players more in the vein of AD&D 1 characters and here in the world making their way across it and really being fairly ignorant of continental events.
My issues with the presentation of the CS I resolve by more or less treating them as a less effective version of the WH40k Imperium of man. They are more shaded grey for purposes of entering their territory (as well as their actions...no reason for them to hate blue people who look and function as humans otherwise) and whether players should interfere in their affairs or not.
Quote from: oggsmash on June 30, 2024, 08:23:43 AMThe problem is the setting also presents that the CS is the only reason there are substantial human populations still on the continent.
No, there is another...
This is Savage Rifts. In Savage Rifts, the Tomorrow Legion takes up the roll of the 'good guys' without being human-exclusive. They are very clearly a 'progressive' band out to oppose the 'conservative' CS. That isn't necessarily a bad thing except that the (relatively small amount of) material on them gushes too hard on them being just so damn goody-goody (and the same material emphasizes that the CS are oh so nasty).
Quote from: HappyDaze on June 30, 2024, 11:16:50 AMQuote from: oggsmash on June 30, 2024, 08:23:43 AMThe problem is the setting also presents that the CS is the only reason there are substantial human populations still on the continent.
No, there is another...
This is Savage Rifts. In Savage Rifts, the Tomorrow Legion takes up the roll of the 'good guys' without being human-exclusive. They are very clearly a 'progressive' band out to oppose the 'conservative' CS. That isn't necessarily a bad thing except that the (relatively small amount of) material on them gushes too hard on them being just so damn goody-goody (and the same material emphasizes that the CS are oh so nasty).
Pinnacle's Staff is more on the conservative side of the Political Spectrum than the Progressive, so I wouldn't necessarily label the Tomorrow Legion as "Progressive". It's more a default 'good guy group that goes and fights bad guys' to make the GM's job a lot easier.
It's the same reason they created the "Twilight Legion" in Deadlands. It's a purely GM centric creation in order to make running the game easier. "You're all part of Good Guy Legion. You have an HQ and people to give you missions to go and fight bad guys."
Did Savage Rifts get rid of The Vanguard and the Psi Battalion?
Quote from: KingCheops on June 30, 2024, 01:05:48 PMDid Savage Rifts get rid of The Vanguard and the Psi Battalion?
Not that I'm aware of, at least not that I remember. The CS is relatively unchanged other than mechanically due to the game being different. And there are still The Republicans/NEMA descendants out there undercover doing undercover shit.
Quote from: Orphan81 on June 30, 2024, 12:25:16 PMPinnacle's Staff is more on the conservative side of the Political Spectrum than the Progressive, so I wouldn't necessarily label the Tomorrow Legion as "Progressive". It's more a default 'good guy group that goes and fights bad guys' to make the GM's job a lot easier.
Regardless of the politics of the writers (which I know very little about), the Tomorrow Legion is heavy into diversity and everyone has a place in it fighting to change the world for the better (as they see it). They reject the current power stuctures and do things their own new way because they think it will work out better for all. That's not progressive thinking?
Is Savage Rifts intrinsically linked to the Rifts setting? I'm asking because I was thinking of using the rules for a science fantasy setting of my own making (not set on Earth), but I don't know if Savage Rifts is too dependent on the Rifts lore.
Quote from: Rhymer88 on July 01, 2024, 03:37:52 AMIs Savage Rifts intrinsically linked to the Rifts setting? I'm asking because I was thinking of using the rules for a science fantasy setting of my own making (not set on Earth), but I don't know if Savage Rifts is too dependent on the Rifts lore.
woof!Long weekend, I need to catch up to you guys.
Savage Rifts is simply the Palladium Rifts game translated to the Savage Worlds Ruleset. The Savage Worlds rules themselves *expanded* to embrace the powerlevels of Rifts. Ironically the first edition of the rules occurred before the SWADE Core rules dropped, which they then updated a year later.
The best part about this is now the SWADE Core Rules now have expansion options to truly behemoth levels. And because the rules are unified across all their lines and Companion rules, you can effectively use the ruleset easily and effectively for just about any genre.
That said - Savage Worlds is for GM's that don't mind tinkering around with their games, and they give you every option imaginable, but NONE of it is *required*. In other words the core mechanics are flexible enough to do most of what you're needing 90% of the time.
So Savage Rifts is simply the Rifts setting via the Savage Worlds rules. The only major setting additions they added was the Tomorrow Legion, which as mentioned above is for GM's that want a faction that simple are "doing Good Guy Stuff" against whatever "villains" you want to focus on. They do not shy away from anything with the CS, but you also have to take into consideration that in order for Savage Rifts books to work, they have to abbreviate the content to get to the point. The Palladium books are MUCH larger and much more dense in information. Savage Worlds books gives you a solid highlight without taking you down the insane rabbit-holes that exist in Rifts (see: True Atlanteans).
The Empires of Humanity does a decent job of portraying the complexities of the Coalition States not as simply "Space Nazis". I honestly don't get that take, when it's said over and over even in the Palladium books, where the in-game critics of the CS say explicitly: despite their fascist nature, the CS effectively saved humanity in North America. You don't have to like it, it might seem heavy handed, but it's complex because in doing the hard-thing they did a lot of bad stuff.
You can easily run a CS campaign in Savage Rifts, they give you more than enough material to do whatever you want. No they didn't have enough space to condense 35 Worldbooks worth of content into a few Savage Worlds books, but they give you all the pertinent highlights required. They don't shy away from anything.
Because it's only the highlights, it gives you tons of elbow-room to do your own thing. It's *Rifts* anything can happen. Even better, since the Savage Worlds SWADE Edition Companion rules are totally interchangeable, you can literally lift any other SWADE Content and toss them in there or take your Rifts characters elsewhere as needed. You can easily go offroading with Palladium Content that hasn't been produced yet as well.
Quote from: Ratman_tf on June 28, 2024, 04:04:16 PMLike a lot of Rifts and Palladium Books, there's a lot of great ideas, poorly executed. I take the "lore" as broad ideas. Tolkeen used magic to counter the tech advantages of the Coalition. They had a strong start because the Coalition forces were used to small scale police actions. During the war, the Coalition toughened up and got smart and ruthless. Tolkeen, already tempted by various "evil" forces, fell to demonic sources in their desperation. The Coalition won, but at a huge cost in resources and manpower.
This is my general take as well. I'll create more nuance as needed, but only if it matters.
Quote from: Ratman_tf on June 28, 2024, 04:04:16 PMThe Federation of Magic is kept in check by it's fractured nature. So the idea that they stayed out and watched their rivals fall is in synch with this. Dunscon is using the fall of Tolkien to grab more power and unite the various faction within the Federation. The threat is that with the fall of Tolkien, it's going to be far easier to unite people against the Coalition. And Dunscon is just as much of an asshole as the rulers in the Coalition. If the Federation wins, Dunscon is just going to set up a magic based empire in it's place.
I have a lot of problems with this as it pertains to the Federation. Your take is precisely as it is presented in capsule form in the Savage Rifts edition. The problem I have is this:
1) People that understand magic, at the highest level, understand its pitfalls with the dark side at *minimum* on a general level. In fact to be an Archmage or something, you'd have to know *something* about the Dark arts.
2) There is *no such thing* as "Dark Arts for Good Uses". Sure there are some side-cases you could make, but they're intensely marginal.
3) The "Fractious Nature" of the Federation makes a post-modern argument for why it's tolerated. It presumes that all things being equal, "magic is just magic". So any nation running their magical society deserves the same respect and kinship as any other in the face of something like the CS. I completely disagree with this RAW as a premise Based on #1 and #2. Mind you - I'm talking about the books as written, because what you posted above is pretty much that (so this isn't directed at you Ratman). The rulers of Dweomer KNOW how evil Dunscon is. They know it and because they know it, they know its a million times worse than anything the CS is about. By Dweomer and the other Federation members not doing anything about it - they ratify the very worst takes the CS accuses them of.
Because they are consorting with Demons that want to take over the world and devour everyone in their path, and drink their souls and go hogwild. I don't like the presentation of the Federation, and all their power - Dweomer is every bit as powerful as Chi-Town (at least defensively). They should be cleaning HOUSE. You could never hope to trust them in a fight against the CS with "allies" like Dunscon.
Quote from: Ratman_tf on June 28, 2024, 04:04:16 PMGood part of the Siege of Tolkeen storyline. All the fallout should make for great RP scenarios. Fallen knights, bitter Knights, and the order trying to put itself back together.
Agreed. I'm already cooking up some real RP conflict now.
Quote from: Ratman_tf on June 28, 2024, 04:04:16 PMFirst, I'd play into the Coalition being depleted by the war. I like my Rifts to lean into the post-apoc side of things, and any nation state in the world should be leery of a big war like this. Their existence is precarious and they have limited resources. This should be a time of consolidation and rebuilding for the Coalition for years if not decades to come. Giving other factions a chance to react to the war and plan for future Coalition aggression. Any big events like the Xiticics problem or the invasion from Hell storyline should be handled mostly by other factions. The Coalition should have their hands full just keeping the monsters off their lawn, and not be in a position to make any big moves. More likely they'll send out special forces units to tip events against the threats. If they wind up helping D-Bees and wizards in the process, well it's a situation of lesser evils for now.
I can't tell if the idea of Tolkeen running instead of standing and fighting is a good idea or not. Whenever I read the parts in the sourcebooks about Erin Tarn talking about moving Tolkeen, I just think to myself that this ceeds territory to the Coalition and makes them stronger. Eventually the enemies of the CS will fall, one by one, instead of facing a united resistance. I have a mental image of the day when Plato and Erin and everybody will be standing with their backs to the ocean while the Coalition advances to literally push them into the sea where the Splugorth are waiting to scoop them up and turn them into slaves.
But it's an intentionally contentious situation, like most of the setting, designed to generate adventures.
One thing I really like to lean into is the idea that the world is crazy. I mean literally insane. Putting skulls on your robots is the least nutty idea in a world full of magic and demons and aliens and time travellers. You can meet the actual Billy the Kid, the actual Merlin, and a host of pretenders and con men. This is a world that bases it's societies as much on TV shows and movies recovered from the previous civilizations as real history. A world where turning yourself into a cyborg or juicer or crazy may be the only viable option to save your town from demons. This is not a sane and rational world, and players shouldn't expect that. Or be pleasantly surprised at moments of sanity.
Oh, and here's a rules bugaboo that I like to nip in the bud. A lot of complaints not just in Rifts but any system with teleportation in general is the Scry/Teleport/Smite argument. My solution is Edna Mode, "No teleporting!". Not as a quick and easy mode of transportation. Keep it super rare, super hard to execute, and give it lots of limitations and restrictions.
All good advice and well taken.
Quote from: Omega on June 28, 2024, 10:44:31 PMI still have all the unfinished illustration work we did for the ill fated and never released Rifts: Arctic Circle book the designer just handed off to me and quit gaming after dealing with Kevin.
Ooo.... you wanna share any of it with us?
Quote from: HappyDaze on July 01, 2024, 01:34:54 AMQuote from: Orphan81 on June 30, 2024, 12:25:16 PMPinnacle's Staff is more on the conservative side of the Political Spectrum than the Progressive, so I wouldn't necessarily label the Tomorrow Legion as "Progressive". It's more a default 'good guy group that goes and fights bad guys' to make the GM's job a lot easier.
Regardless of the politics of the writers (which I know very little about), the Tomorrow Legion is heavy into diversity and everyone has a place in it fighting to change the world for the better (as they see it). They reject the current power stuctures and do things their own new way because they think it will work out better for all. That's not progressive thinking?
I'm not so sure it's that loosey goosey. I mean you pretty much have to be *good* to function with them, and they are militaristic - they have ranks etc. They read to me like something that might come out of Tolkeen had they not gone darkside.
I see the Tomorrow Legion good for one thing: to get nice soft D&D players into Rifts without feeling like they've been dipped in a vat of blood first.
Normally I don't care for that kind of kids-gloves shit in my campaigns. But I'm realizing just how soft a lot of modern noob gamers are. Most would run from Rifts screaming if I just tossed them into the fryer.
Quote from: tenbones on July 01, 2024, 03:07:09 PMQuote from: Ratman_tf on June 28, 2024, 04:04:16 PMThe Federation of Magic is kept in check by it's fractured nature. So the idea that they stayed out and watched their rivals fall is in synch with this. Dunscon is using the fall of Tolkien to grab more power and unite the various faction within the Federation. The threat is that with the fall of Tolkien, it's going to be far easier to unite people against the Coalition. And Dunscon is just as much of an asshole as the rulers in the Coalition. If the Federation wins, Dunscon is just going to set up a magic based empire in it's place.
I have a lot of problems with this as it pertains to the Federation. Your take is precisely as it is presented in capsule form in the Savage Rifts edition. The problem I have is this:
1) People that understand magic, at the highest level, understand its pitfalls with the dark side at *minimum* on a general level. In fact to be an Archmage or something, you'd have to know *something* about the Dark arts.
2) There is *no such thing* as "Dark Arts for Good Uses". Sure there are some side-cases you could make, but they're intensely marginal.
3) The "Fractious Nature" of the Federation makes a post-modern argument for why it's tolerated. It presumes that all things being equal, "magic is just magic". So any nation running their magical society deserves the same respect and kinship as any other in the face of something like the CS. I completely disagree with this RAW as a premise Based on #1 and #2. Mind you - I'm talking about the books as written, because what you posted above is pretty much that (so this isn't directed at you Ratman). The rulers of Dweomer KNOW how evil Dunscon is. They know it and because they know it, they know its a million times worse than anything the CS is about. By Dweomer and the other Federation members not doing anything about it - they ratify the very worst takes the CS accuses them of.
Because they are consorting with Demons that want to take over the world and devour everyone in their path, and drink their souls and go hogwild. I don't like the presentation of the Federation, and all their power - Dweomer is every bit as powerful as Chi-Town (at least defensively). They should be cleaning HOUSE. You could never hope to trust them in a fight against the CS with "allies" like Dunscon.
The problem with Dewomer is that it's ruled by a trio of aloof demigods. The kind of dudes who know bad things are afoot, but spend more time pondering the situation than doing anything about it. They're kinda like the Ents from LOTR. Powerful enough to topple Dunscon, but extremely reluctant to get involved.
Quote from: HappyDaze on July 01, 2024, 01:34:54 AMRegardless of the politics of the writers (which I know very little about), the Tomorrow Legion is heavy into diversity and everyone has a place in it fighting to change the world for the better (as they see it). They reject the current power stuctures and do things their own new way because they think it will work out better for all. That's not progressive thinking?
.......
I see that more as being "So you can play any character you want. Dragon Hatchling, Glitterboy, Juicer and Ley Line Walker. As long as they're good."
Like again, this is the group specifically made so the GM can let his players go wild with Rifts and have a reason why they go and fight bad guys. Savage Rifts specifically assumes you're playing Tomorrow Legion characters.
I just, don't see any sort of political intentions here, it's purely a device so the GM and players can get to playing as soon as possible.
"Okay so you guys are heading towards old New Mexico because there's been reports of Vampires sneaking across the border and attacking small settlements on the Rio Grande."
Well it doesn't really assume that you have to do Tomorrow Legion. They say it many times in their own podcasts. Yes it's there to introduce new players to the concept of Rifts. I don't like it, but I do get it.
Rifts is *not* an easy setting to simply dive into. Not if you intend to play it with fidelity. And consider the modern gamers that are coming over from 5e D&D. If you're bringing those players directly into Palladium Rifts it's like bringing Taylor Swift fans to go check out Sabaton.
If you intend on keeping them, you gotta give them a handhold. Then you can explore and go offroading. Then you can take them to the Sabaton concert, then go down to Vampire Kingdoms and see how they like Cannibal Corpse.
Quote from: tenbones on July 01, 2024, 04:47:46 PMWell it doesn't really assume that you have to do Tomorrow Legion. They say it many times in their own podcasts. Yes it's there to introduce new players to the concept of Rifts. I don't like it, but I do get it.
Rifts is *not* an easy setting to simply dive into. Not if you intend to play it with fidelity. And consider the modern gamers that are coming over from 5e D&D. If you're bringing those players directly into Palladium Rifts it's like bringing Taylor Swift fans to go check out Sabaton.
If you intend on keeping them, you gotta give them a handhold. Then you can explore and go offroading. Then you can take them to the Sabaton concert, then go down to Vampire Kingdoms and see how they like Cannibal Corpse.
I think this is more an issue with newer players vs experienced players in General. When you're brand new to RPGs the idea that you can do "Anything you want" is overwhelming. The whole "Old man in the Tavern with a map to treasure hiring people" is a trope for a reason.
Dungeons themselves are the original format for tabletop top rpgs entirely because they give the DM complete control of the environment with hard barriers the PCs can't go past... and a clear objective in the end of the maze.
More experienced players are able to grasp the concept of a Sandbox and build their own goals into their characters.
But there are lots of people who even with experience, still prefer to play 'on rails'. I don't see the Tomorrow Legion as 'training wheels' so much as easy way to engage with the setting and have clear goals.
Definitely though Rifts is not super easy to just run into right away., It's a very detailed setting with a lot of different things, but that's why so many people love it.
But then, I think for real RIFTS heads like you Tenbones you love the setting because you wanna *LIVE* in it (I mean not really but fantasy wise you do) and you want Players who have that same passion to explore the nooks and crannies of such a detailed and in depth world..
So the idea of "Your boss says go kill these bad guys over here" is like missing everything you love about the setting. The idea of seeing what strange weirdness over the next hill is and how your players will interact with it.
Correct me if I'm wrong though.
Quote from: Orphan81 on July 01, 2024, 06:30:00 PMQuote from: tenbones on July 01, 2024, 04:47:46 PMWell it doesn't really assume that you have to do Tomorrow Legion. They say it many times in their own podcasts. Yes it's there to introduce new players to the concept of Rifts. I don't like it, but I do get it.
Rifts is *not* an easy setting to simply dive into. Not if you intend to play it with fidelity. And consider the modern gamers that are coming over from 5e D&D. If you're bringing those players directly into Palladium Rifts it's like bringing Taylor Swift fans to go check out Sabaton.
If you intend on keeping them, you gotta give them a handhold. Then you can explore and go offroading. Then you can take them to the Sabaton concert, then go down to Vampire Kingdoms and see how they like Cannibal Corpse.
I think this is more an issue with newer players vs experienced players in General. When you're brand new to RPGs the idea that you can do "Anything you want" is overwhelming. The whole "Old man in the Tavern with a map to treasure hiring people" is a trope for a reason.
Dungeons themselves are the original format for tabletop top rpgs entirely because they give the DM complete control of the environment with hard barriers the PCs can't go past... and a clear objective in the end of the maze.
More experienced players are able to grasp the concept of a Sandbox and build their own goals into their characters.
Even experienced players need some context. I had an illuminating exchange with one of my players. I asked "What does your character want to do?" and he replied "Rule the world!", which is a valid response, but doesn't give me much to work with as a GM. After thinking about it, I realized, even if he were going to rule the world, there's got to be steps in there. Resources to gather, opponents to defeat, what are those resources? Who are those opponents?
I usually start any campaign on rails just to get things rolling and give me as the GM a chance to set up the world state and then feed rumors and clues to the players giving them context for what they want to pursue.
Quote from: Orphan81 on July 01, 2024, 04:13:18 PMI see that more as being "So you can play any character you want. Dragon Hatchling, Glitterboy, Juicer and Ley Line Walker. As long as they're good."
Isn't this the exact thing that many here object to in D&D and call "wokeshit" or some other disdainful variation?
Quote from: HappyDaze on July 02, 2024, 01:35:30 AMQuote from: Orphan81 on July 01, 2024, 04:13:18 PMI see that more as being "So you can play any character you want. Dragon Hatchling, Glitterboy, Juicer and Ley Line Walker. As long as they're good."
Isn't this the exact thing that many here object to in D&D and call "wokeshit" or some other disdainful variation?
In the traditional D&D settings the cultures presented had their own internal context which most certainly didn't include the emergent modern freakshow. In fact, the whole context of "half-orcs" were always a thing because they were never considered part of the human, dwarf, halfling, or elf civilizations. They were never part of the established milieu established or implied by Greyhawk, Forgotten Realms, Dragonlance, Mystara, etc. unless otherwise specified.
The cultural deconstruction happens at the table where every single one of us has allowed someone to play that snowflake race/class combination, but if you're a good GM you contextualized it. It's when people start pretending it doesn't matter, by ignorance or lack of experience that things turn into what we have.
Spelljammer was a good example of showing how to do it right - where anything goes, and on top of it was an entire new layer of metaculture. Much like Star Wars. Rifts is in that same category. You *can* have a party with all those options cited above. But its the GM's job to contextualize it.
There is no context in "Woke D&D" other than deconstruction of what was established for the purpose of pretending all cultures and races are the same - ironically which is only diversity of appearance, not actual diversity. Tieflings, Orcs, Humans, Elves, Duergar, hey it's all one big monoculture.
It most certainly isn't that in Rifts, but of course what one does at their table is their business.
For me, if I even use the Tomorrow Legion - there most certainly will be internal issues, heh. But I doubt I'll use them.
I played Rifts extensively right after I got the book for Christmas (1990 probably? It hadn't been out long) until about 1995. Hence, the entire "meta-plot" didn't really exist for me in the same sense as it does for a lot of people (namely the whole Tolkeen thing). After Africa came out, I sort of gave up on giving a fuck about the world books beyond using them for stats, mostly because I thought I was buying a sourcebook on Africa, not a giant adventure module. I mean, Atlantis and Vampire Kingdoms set the tone; lots of cool stuff with infinite possibilities, not some rail-roady bullshit that quite frankly was idiotic. England was kinda sorta there with the entire fake Merlin/Arthur nonsense, but it was a little easier to swallow due to the implications. Yes, I could buy into supernatural entities pretending to be heroes from Earth's past as an easy way to manipulate people and gain power. But then four retards show up riding animals and yeah...stupid.
Also think about how long it took to get stats for stuff like the Xiticixxxxicicic whatever, Lone Star, or fucking NORTHERN GUN. No, instead publish two books about South America with lameass Aztec-inspired stupidity I could have just gleaned from Vampire Kingdoms. And yes, Colombian guerillas. I mean...wtf. Just phoning it in.
tl;dr, that's some context for my answer here. For world books, as stated, Vampire Kingdoms and Atlantis tell me pretty much all I need to really know about Rifts Earth. Throw in the first two sourcebooks (the Mechanoid book does everything Africa wanted to do but like a billion times better with no railroad nonsense), Mercenaries, and Wormwood. That's what I'd consider essential and would ignore pretty much everything else except maybe to get stats. Injecting the meta-plot really destroyed the entire mystique of Rifts by turning one of the most badass kitchen sink sandbox settings into a boring ass world where everyone and their dog was running some sort of overarching domination scheme every other week. Realistically, the Splugorth and the Lord of the Deep could curb stomp every other threat if they felt like it (even the vampires) but just didn't because...they literally don't give a fuck. The standoff between the Coalition and the Federation of Magic should just be that: a standoff. Infinitely long cold war because they both know they sort of need each other just in case Atlantis gates in enough demons and shit to take over. No, instead you have literal idiots running both factions, doing idiotic bullshit.
So to get to my real answer before I just keep typing pissed off drivel, I think someone else said just use the main book, and that's it. I agree. Wtf are cyberknights? Where do their powers come from? Make it up. Not everything needs to be explained in detail, much less do you need to adhere to some brain-dead plot.
Just for Shits n' Giggles, I threw together a Human Tattooed Warrior. Forgot how long it can take to make a Savage Worlds character when you're not super-familiar with it.
Sort of a up-close warrior, but also one that can work covert. Sadly, some of the Tattoos from Rifts didn't get translated (Cloud Covered in Chains is WAY more powerful than the Savage version and no Skull in Thorns).
Since I believe in showing my work:
Tattooed Warrior
Human
Agility d4+1 = d6+1 (Impressive Physical Specimens) = d8
Smarts d4+1 = d6
Spirit d4+1 = d6
Strength d4+1 = d6+1 (2pts from Hindrances) = d8
Vigor d4+1 = d6+1 (Impressive Physical Specimens) = d8
Pace: 6
Parry: 7
Toughness: 14 (12 from Tattoos, +1 Brawny, +1 Brawler)
PPE: 17
ISP: 0
Strain: 6
Size: 0
Hindrances
Loyal (Minor)
Quirk (Minor)
Stubborn (Minor)
Thin Skinned (Minor)
Wanted: Minions of Splugorth (Minor)
Tattoo Insanity: Habit - Nicotine (Major)
Edges
Brawny (Impressive Physical Specimen)
Brawler (Trained for the Arena)
Danger Sense (Experience & Wisdom)
Free Runner (Trained for the Arena)
Gladiator (Maxi-Warrior)
Martial Artist (Maxi-Warrior)
Maxi-Warrior (Human - Adaptable)
Rapid Recharge (Tattooed Man)
Upgradeable (Upgradeable)
Accustomed to Horror: Free reroll on all Fear Checks
Skills (15pts)
Athletics* d4+1 (Trained for the Arena) = d6+1 (Training) = d8
Battle d4+1 = d6
Common Knowledge* d4+1 = d6
Fighting d4+1 (Trained for the Arena) = d6+1 (Maxi-Warrior) = d8
Intimidation d4+1 (1pt Hindrance)
Notice* d4+1 (1pt Hindrance) = d6
Occult d4
Persuasion* d4
Riding d4+1 = d6
Shooting d4 (Maxi-Warrior) = d6+1 (Training) = d8
Stealth* d4+1 = d6+1 = d8
Survival d4+1 = d6
Taunt d4+1 = d6
* - Core Skill
- Hero's Journey -
1 Roll: Experience & Wisdom
1 Roll: Training: Militia (Athletics +1, Shooting+2)
Narrative Hook: Authority Issues (on the run from Splugorth)
- Tattoos -
Simple Weapon: Seax (1 PPE)
Shield, Medium Round (2 PPE)
Serpent Battle Axe (4 PPE)
Bloody: Warhammer (4 PPE)
Animal: Black Panther (4 PPE)
Animal: Bull (4 PPE)
Monster: Ostrosaurus (6 PPE)
Monster: Chimera (5 PPE)
Power: Cracked Skull (4 PPE)
Power: Eye Pierced by Dagger (4 PPE)
Power: Heart, Staked (1 PPE)
Power: Warrior in Full Armor (4 PPE)
- Equipment -
10k in Credits for Gear
Northern Gun-S2 Survival Pack
Northern Gun Hi-Tech Light Crossbow (-600cr) <Rifts Sourcebook 1> w/soft-sided carrying case & shoulder strap
- Reflex Sight (-100cr)
Quiver (-25cr) w/x8 Medium Explosive Heads (-800cr) <Rifts Sourcebook 1>, x12 Broadheads for Hunting (-24cr)
LED Camouflage Cloak (-2500cr) <Sci-Fi Companion)
Communicator (-1500cr)
Infrared Distancing Binocs (-1200cr)
x1 Medi-Gel (200cr)
Rebreather (-2500cr) <Sci-Fi Companion>
Flashlight (-10cr)
Paracord, 30yds (30cr)
Smoke Grenades x4 (-40cr)
Zippo-style Lighter & Fuel, equal to 5 Lighters (10cr)
Cigarettes & Snuff for Nicotine Habit (-30cr)
Clothing: Hiking Boots (-100cr), Camo Fatigues (-20cr)
Transporation: Riding Horse & Saddle (-310cr)
I actually like the South America books! Definitely far more than the Coalition War books.
If I was running an ARZNO campaign post Tolkeen, I would use everything in the official books as just rumors. For each rumor the PCs hear, roll 1D6. 1-2 it's True! 3-4 it's False! 5-6 it's a Mixture of Truth and False.
Quote from: Spinachcat on July 02, 2024, 09:48:48 PMI actually like the South America books! Definitely far more than the Coalition War books.
You would...but then again, the Coalition War books suck so that's not hard anyway. The most egregious thing ever to happen in Rifts is changing the badass Coalition skull motif uniforms. 100% serious.
QuoteIf I was running an ARZNO campaign post Tolkeen, I would use everything in the official books as just rumors. For each rumor the PCs hear, roll 1D6. 1-2 it's True! 3-4 it's False! 5-6 it's a Mixture of Truth and False.
Erin Tarn is never wrong! Except when she is. After the face reveal, I decided she wasn't even real and just a bunch of dudes grifting, printing up books based purely on rumors and supposition.
Quote from: Brad on July 02, 2024, 09:57:15 PMThe most egregious thing ever to happen in Rifts is changing the badass Coalition skull motif uniforms.
I agree. It was a dumb change that made no sense other than Kevin Siembieda maybe wanted to cut out Kevin Long from the royalties pipeline due to their falling out. And because Kevin didn't keep CJ Carella under tighter control, the stupidly radical increase in power just made the game unbalanced. The Ultimate Edition of the corebook was, honestly, terrible.
Quote from: Brad on July 02, 2024, 09:57:15 PMQuote from: Spinachcat on July 02, 2024, 09:48:48 PMI actually like the South America books! Definitely far more than the Coalition War books.
You would...but then again, the Coalition War books suck so that's not hard anyway. The most egregious thing ever to happen in Rifts is changing the badass Coalition skull motif uniforms. 100% serious.
Yeah. The old style was way more evocative. Perez makes the new style look good, but it's very hit and miss depending on the artist.
(https://i.pinimg.com/564x/6b/72/52/6b72527251eaee3bde4b5af88a7488ab.jpg)
And some of it is downright awful.
(https://writeups.letsyouandhimfight.com/images/c181c910fc394ebf483ca37874c308f1a6b1497a7d2559c32f654930cb0d4662.png)
Quote from: HappyDaze on July 02, 2024, 01:35:30 AMQuote from: Orphan81 on July 01, 2024, 04:13:18 PMI see that more as being "So you can play any character you want. Dragon Hatchling, Glitterboy, Juicer and Ley Line Walker. As long as they're good."
Isn't this the exact thing that many here object to in D&D and call "wokeshit" or some other disdainful variation?
Rifts is literally the game where every player is encouraged to play as weird and unique a character as they want.
Like that is the entire appeal of the game, being able to play "anything".
You play DnD because you want a fantasy story.
You play Rifts because you want to be a cybernetic psychic Ratman with missle launchers on his shoulders fighting a Vampire Dragon from Hell.
Quote from: Orphan81 on July 03, 2024, 10:56:38 AMRifts is literally the game where every player is encouraged to play as weird and unique a character as they want.
Like that is the entire appeal of the game, being able to play "anything".
You play DnD because you want a fantasy story.
You play Rifts because you want to be a cybernetic psychic Ratman with missle launchers on his shoulders fighting a Vampire Dragon from Hell.
Exactly. Rifts entire conceit is you can basically play..well..anything. It's a gonzo, grimdark technomagickal cyberpunk post-apocalyptic world with alternate dimensions, mecha, demons, madness and vagabonds running around all trying to either murder one another or stop from being murdered. The only problem has been those times its forgotten its roots. Kevin never should have moved the timeline/metaplot forward. It was okay to give the broad strokes of the 'Great Calamities', but he should have left it at that. As stated upthread,
Rifts: Africa was the start of the domino of problems.
Juicer Uprisings, for example, should have been better managed (again, CJ Carella's penchant for making everything way out of proportion).
Not to mention the three goods in Dwenor are apparently one god who lost his marbles went insane and split his psyche into three parts.
So not sure how the godly equivalent of howling mad Murdoch is going to be willing to fight let alone be that effective against the CS.
Quote from: Orphan81 on July 03, 2024, 10:56:38 AMYou play DnD because you want a fantasy story.
What do you mean by a "fantasy story" here? Do you mean a Tolkien-esque world? Perhaps that's why you play D&D, but don't assume that's why I play it (when I did play it). You probably shouldn't assume that others are looking for that either, as it seems that many players do play it for the joy of being able to play (almost) anything.
Quote from: Abraxus on July 03, 2024, 01:00:03 PMNot to mention the three goods in Dwenor are apparently one god who lost his marbles went insane and split his psyche into three parts.
So not sure how the godly equivalent of howling mad Murdoch is going to be willing to fight let alone be that effective against the CS.
That too. As said, the problem is the metaplot. If the
Siege of Tolkeen had been presented as just that: a siege instead of a battle, with the particulars left up to the individual GMs' games, that would be one thing. It's the main problem with having a setting where you really should just detail it and let the individual GM's do their own campaigns instead of having 'word from on high!'
Quote from: HappyDaze on July 03, 2024, 03:25:38 PMQuote from: Orphan81 on July 03, 2024, 10:56:38 AMYou play DnD because you want a fantasy story.
What do you mean by a "fantasy story" here? Do you mean a Tolkien-esque world? Perhaps that's why you play D&D, but don't assume that's why I play it (when I did play it). You probably shouldn't assume that others are looking for that either, as it seems that many players do play it for the joy of being able to play (almost) anything.
There's lots of different types of Fantasy, but D&D is for playing Fantasy, whether Conan, Tolkien, or JRPG stuff.
I wouldn't use D&D to play a Superhero game.
I do use Mutants and Masterminds but that's not D&D.
You're being ridiculous because you wanna argue pendantics for some strange reason.
I assume you play D&D for Fantasy because the game literally has a class called Wizard in it.
If you're using it to play Hard Science fiction than your doing it wrong.
Quote from: HappyDaze on July 03, 2024, 03:25:38 PMWhat do you mean by a "fantasy story" here? Do you mean a Tolkien-esque world? Perhaps that's why you play D&D, but don't assume that's why I play it (when I did play it). You probably shouldn't assume that others are looking for that either, as it seems that many players do play it for the joy of being able to play (almost) anything.
Dude, can you stop trying to derail the thread with your fucking stupidity? This is about Rifts, not about how you want D&D to be Rifts.
Quote from: Orphan81 on July 03, 2024, 07:35:31 PMQuote from: HappyDaze on July 03, 2024, 03:25:38 PMQuote from: Orphan81 on July 03, 2024, 10:56:38 AMYou play DnD because you want a fantasy story.
What do you mean by a "fantasy story" here? Do you mean a Tolkien-esque world? Perhaps that's why you play D&D, but don't assume that's why I play it (when I did play it). You probably shouldn't assume that others are looking for that either, as it seems that many players do play it for the joy of being able to play (almost) anything.
There's lots of different types of Fantasy, but D&D is for playing Fantasy, whether Conan, Tolkien, or JRPG stuff.
I wouldn't use D&D to play a Superhero game.
I do use Mutants and Masterminds but that's not D&D.
You're being ridiculous because you wanna argue pendantics for some strange reason.
I assume you play D&D for Fantasy because the game literally has a class called Wizard in it.
If you're using it to play Hard Science fiction than your doing it wrong.
Fantasy can include all sorts of weird shit. Early D&D included more sci-fi elements than current D&D generally does, but current D & D typically allows for a much wider (and wierder) array of races (or species or ancestries or whatever term you want to use).
Quote from: Brad on July 03, 2024, 07:38:04 PMQuote from: HappyDaze on July 03, 2024, 03:25:38 PMWhat do you mean by a "fantasy story" here? Do you mean a Tolkien-esque world? Perhaps that's why you play D&D, but don't assume that's why I play it (when I did play it). You probably shouldn't assume that others are looking for that either, as it seems that many players do play it for the joy of being able to play (almost) anything.
Dude, can you stop trying to derail the thread with your fucking stupidity? This is about Rifts, not about how you want D&D to be Rifts.
Go fuck yourself.
Quote from: Brad on July 02, 2024, 09:57:15 PMQuote from: Spinachcat on July 02, 2024, 09:48:48 PMI actually like the South America books! Definitely far more than the Coalition War books.
You would...but then again, the Coalition War books suck so that's not hard anyway. The most egregious thing ever to happen in Rifts is changing the badass Coalition skull motif uniforms. 100% serious.
QuoteIf I was running an ARZNO campaign post Tolkeen, I would use everything in the official books as just rumors. For each rumor the PCs hear, roll 1D6. 1-2 it's True! 3-4 it's False! 5-6 it's a Mixture of Truth and False.
Erin Tarn is never wrong! Except when she is. After the face reveal, I decided she wasn't even real and just a bunch of dudes grifting, printing up books based purely on rumors and supposition.
Even if the books are accurate about Erin Tarn, I have no doubt there are fakers and pretenders making books and using her name. The NGR even idolizes her with fake pinup models since hardly anyone there knows what she looks like.
Quote from: Ratman_tf on July 04, 2024, 03:38:10 AMEven if the books are accurate about Erin Tarn, I have no doubt there are fakers and pretenders making books and using her name. The NGR even idolizes her with fake pinup models since hardly anyone there knows what she looks like.
They're probably making pornos with the fake pinups. Maybe even a way to keep the population reproducing! 'Do your duty for God & Country! Impregnate your wife!'
Quote from: Ratman_tf on June 29, 2024, 04:33:18 PMQuote from: oggsmash on June 29, 2024, 02:07:06 PMThis is contrary to what you may be doing, but I just ignore the whole war thing ever happening and base the setting as it was in the very first RIFTs book. I do not love meta events and I really think having a massive full scale war for the Coalition is beyond stupid. Teleportation/magic/dragons who can appear in your bedroom are not the sort of opponents you want to declare open and total war against. That makes zero strategic sense.
If teleportation is the issue, then any anti-magic faction of sufficient size and belligerence would be wiped out long before they became a threat. Rifts would be a world of competing magic kingdoms and no Coalition as we know it would be able to exist.
There is always some tech gadget to interdict teleport.
Quote from: Omega on July 21, 2024, 07:15:23 PMQuote from: Ratman_tf on June 29, 2024, 04:33:18 PMQuote from: oggsmash on June 29, 2024, 02:07:06 PMThis is contrary to what you may be doing, but I just ignore the whole war thing ever happening and base the setting as it was in the very first RIFTs book. I do not love meta events and I really think having a massive full scale war for the Coalition is beyond stupid. Teleportation/magic/dragons who can appear in your bedroom are not the sort of opponents you want to declare open and total war against. That makes zero strategic sense.
If teleportation is the issue, then any anti-magic faction of sufficient size and belligerence would be wiped out long before they became a threat. Rifts would be a world of competing magic kingdoms and no Coalition as we know it would be able to exist.
There is always some tech gadget to interdict teleport.
And, of course, there are the Coalition's own black ops magic-users that they never speak about...
The tomorrow legion is no issue for me because I do not use it at all. The old rifts I thought jumped the shark when it started a massive war in NA that drove a silly metaplot and led to massive power creep. I ignore any of that ever happening as well. I think Rifts for my group plays amazing from the ground up sandbox. The characters are not fighting in wars or deciding who gets to be king. They are fighting off local raiders/monsters or investigating old installations and the like.
I can appreciate the designers wanted to give a GM some tracks to drive on as well as an organization to build story around (Steve Austin had OSI, Bond has his org, etc) but alot of that infrastructure of all sides, good (TL), bad (CS), the middle (some of the more independent human kingdoms) seem way, way out of proportion to the number of brains/brawn/materials it would take to put them together in the time frame given. I toss all that and just scale everything back, make the CS much more grey overall (well players using magic still consider them black) in their actions and motives and allow the players to decide where they go and what they do with far fewer metaplots/actions in the background.
That said I do prefer a little less gonzo in my sci fi (fantasy) post apoc and right now we are loosely running around in Darwin's World. Darwin's world was the closest thing I always felt to an updated Gamma World, but less gonzo. It falls somewhere between Fallout and Gamma World as a setting and the new SWADE book for the setting is pretty good for my needs.
As for the CS's black ops magic-users...I have always felt KS was going to finally at some point reveal the Proseks are actually extremely gifted Ley Line Walkers who have learned to conceal their aura completely and utterly. This would make a great deal of sense as to why they want to eradicate magic from the continent as well as why they would wage such an open war against something they visibly have no hard counter for.
Quote from: oggsmash on July 23, 2024, 08:47:39 AMThe tomorrow legion is no issue for me because I do not use it at all. The old rifts I thought jumped the shark when it started a massive war in NA that drove a silly metaplot and led to massive power creep.
Power creep is a thing in Rifts since... Atlantis? Vampire Kingdoms was pretty subdued. Atlantis was nuts, but most of the stuff in Atlantis is meant to be monstrous opponents. But powerful enemies drives power escalation in the characters.
Though it's kinda hard to call it power creep when a character class in the core rulebook starts out with a signature power armor/mech with an insane amount of armor value and one of the most powerful guns in the game. I speak, of coure, of the infamous Glitter Boy.
QuoteI ignore any of that ever happening as well. I think Rifts for my group plays amazing from the ground up sandbox. The characters are not fighting in wars or deciding who gets to be king. They are fighting off local raiders/monsters or investigating old installations and the like.
I agree. I like my Rifts more rebuilding from the apocalypse. Some of the nation states are a little too civilized for my tastes. But again, it's a fine line, because it does give the opportunity for urban cyberpunk style adventures in the big tech cities.