TheRPGSite

Okay, so approximately 453,000 alt.sorcerers have been created since 3e D&D first came out.  Some of them, especially the ones based on bloodlines, stretch for pages – one even stretched about 30, if I remember right.  But I think I just came up with an alt no one else has hit yet!

The idea is simple: the sorcerer class functions exactly as it does currently, except that the sorcerer is considered to have access to *all* metamagic feats.  "All" means all the PHB feats for sure; I see no reason to not throw all the other feats in, too, but I'm sure there are at least a few that wouldn't work.

Everything else about the sorcerer stays the same.  One essential thing that would stay the same is that it would take a full action to use metamagic – they cast the spell using their standard action and "shape" it using their move action, if you will.

To give them something to use feats on, they could still choose metamagic feats.  They could use their feat while using their "free" metamagic.  For example, a sorcerer with the still spell feat could spontaneously use the silent spell feat on a magic missile spell.  It would use a 3rd level spell slot, take a full round action to cast, and appear with no evidence tying it to the sorcerer.

Looking over this, I think I'd throw Eschew in free for sorcerers, too.  Everything else is standard.  They have few spells, but they can bend those spells to their will.

Thoughts?

I like it. I might even be willing to keep their spell progression as-is instead of bumping 2nd-level spells to 3rd level instead of 4th.

I'd be interested to see this in practice, but as a DM, I'd be up for letter a player try it out.

Really interesting idea CZ. I like it!

I like it.  I might be inclined to give them a progression as they go up in level.  It wouldn't make much difference, since the feats need higher level slots, but it would make the player feel like they're gaining something.

Quote from: Harry JoyNow that I am deep into my study of Sorcerors, Eschew Materials should be Erratta'd in one way or the other.

Why do you say that?


Well, so far the response is positive.  Cool.  It just struck me that this would better model what they're trying to do with sorcerers -- have casters that only do a few things, but they sure do it well.  :)

I'd instead let them choose a metamagic feat every couple levels. That way they feel like they're getting abilities spread out over time. You also won't get people taking 1 level of sorcerer just for the assload of free feats. In addition, a low level sorcerer won't be burdened with an excess of feats he's incapable of using.

Quote from: CyberzombieWell, so far the response is positive.

Oh, fuck, yeah.  I had a similar thought, myself, after reading that thread.  You're just a bit better prepared.

Quote from: CyberzombieWhy do you say that?


Well, so far the response is positive.  Cool.  It just struck me that this would better model what they're trying to do with sorcerers -- have casters that only do a few things, but they sure do it well.  :)

CZ, have you seen the PHB2? They have an option for Sorcerer to swap the ability to gain a familiar with the ability to add metamagic feats to spells without lengthening the casting time (provided the spell is a 1SA cast time). Not only that, Quicken Spell can be used normally.

Combine that with your idea, and Sorcerers might actually be too good.

Quote from: Name LipsI'd instead let them choose a metamagic feat every couple levels. That way they feel like they're getting abilities spread out over time. You also won't get people taking 1 level of sorcerer just for the assload of free feats. In addition, a low level sorcerer won't be burdened with an excess of feats he's incapable of using.

You're missing the point, mang!  Put the bong down and reconsider.  :p


The sorcerer doesn't get *any* feats for free (except Eschew).  They only get the metamagic feats if they take them normally.  What they get is the ability to spontaneously add a single metamagic effect to a spell that they cast as a full round action.  The ability wouldn't even have much effect if you only took one level of sorcerer.  The more levels of sorcerer you take, the more effect it has.

Go back and reread what I wrote.  :p


Renna: I don't have the PHB2 and I'm not likely to get it unless the reviews start improving.  :D

Cool idea.

'Course they can't really use any of those metamagic feats until 4th level when they get 2nd level spells. Though I suppose you could metamagic a 0-level, but why would you want to.

Well, the utility of this at 1st level really depends on whether you allow metamagic from other WotC books and/or 3rd party sources.  If you allow Complete Arcane, for instance, you can use energy substitution to make your burning hands spell four times as useful.  (Or five times, if you use the 3.0 version of the feat.)

But, yeah, the low-level sorcerer is still looking kind of weak.  Yeesh.  :eek:

What about replacing familiars with something? I've never liked sorceror's with familiars from a thematic standpoint.

Some kind of low level power that stems from the inner power of a sorceror. Something like free Spell Penetration, implying that the sorceror's spells are more powerful than a wizards, except overcoming SR is pretty useless at low levels.

How about a) free Combat Casting at low level, or b) can use CHA bonus on Concentration checks because casting the spell is more natural/coming from within/ blah blah blah than a wizard?

Hmm.  I like the idea of adding the Cha bonus to Concentration checks -- keep it a sorcerer-spell-only bonus.

Hopefully, spell resistance is NOT something you're seeing at 1st level.  Yeek!

As for familiars, I think *either* sorcerers should have them, or wizards should -- not both.  Because of D&D's history, I'd have wizards keep 'em myself.

That leaves open the question of what a sorcerer would get in exchange.  Perhaps the light armour/d6 HD/4 skill points/Cha skills package, along with the abilities mentioned in this thread, would make a decent class.  And a class further distinct from the wizard.

Of course, after Arcana Evolved, I'm pretty much on the side of giving wizards a d6 HD, too.  :)

Quote from: CyberzombieIf you allow Complete Arcane, for instance, you can use energy substitution to make your burning hands spell four times as useful.  (Or five times, if you use the 3.0 version of the feat.)

The way it is described, you have to pick one energy type for energy substitution, so you only make your spells twice as useful.

How would you deal with some of the metamagic feats that require "at least X metamagic feats", assuming that they're including those pre-reqs to force the feats to higher levels?

Quote from: CyberzombieThat leaves open the question of what a sorcerer would get in exchange.  Perhaps the light armour/d6 HD/4 skill points/Cha skills package, along with the abilities mentioned in this thread, would make a decent class.  And a class further distinct from the wizard.

I think the skills and HD boost are good. I'm conflicted on the armor, though. My image of sorcerors just doesn't include armor. Plus that makes them more like bards, thereby attaching bardstink and making sorcerors lamer.

I'd have to actually look at those feats.  Since I never actually *use* metamagic, I'd have to go through and look.  I remember Delay Spell had such a prereq, and I don't see any reason why the sorcerer couldn't just have it.

As for energy substitution -- if you're getting all the metamagic, you're getting *all* the metamagic, including all versions of this.

Oh, just to be clear: all metamagic does not include the Sudden versions.  'Cause that would just be silly.  :p

Quote from: Berger KingI think the skills and HD boost are good. I'm conflicted on the armor, though. My image of sorcerors just doesn't include armor. Plus that makes them more like bards, thereby attaching bardstink and making sorcerors lamer.

Well, that brings up a whole 'nother issue of whether bards really have any purpose at all.  :)

Chain Spell, Sculpt Spell, Split Ray, Repeat Spell, Twin Spell, some others from CA.

I would like to see the Sorc get some minor powers that reflect internal power. I mean, you've got all this will, this charisma/force of personality, but all it does is make your spells harder to resist. Maybe something the equivalent of the paladin's divine grace.

The AE magister has some ability that allows them to replace physical checks (like a Str check to open a door) with intelligence, cus' like they use their brains and stuff. Maybe a sorceror should be able do something similar just by sheer force of will. Open Motherfucker! I command it!

Thanks.  I'll have to get out CArcane and AE tonight -- assuming I don't drop from exhaustion after shopping and cooking.  :)

I don't understand. Do you mean they won't have to pay the higher level slot cost?

Quote from: TrainzI don't understand. Do you mean they won't have to pay the higher level slot cost?

No, they have to pay the cost of the higher level slot -- that's why it isn't terribly useful at 1st level.  What they don't have to do is actually get the feats.  They have virtual feats for their sorcerer spells.

Interesting idea.
I'd be tempted to let these sorcerers convert slots a la AU, that is:
Rule 1: 3 slots of level n can be converted spontaneously into a  slot of level n+1
Rule 2: 1 slot of level n can be converted spontaneously into two  slots of level n-1

With the following constraints:
Constraint 1: Converted slots can't be converted again (You don't get 8 first level slots with a level 4 slot)
Constraint 2: You can't create a slot of higher level than the highest you can normally use.

I could even be persuaded of dropping the second constraint to let them use a little bit more of their metamagic. To simplify, maybe I'd also  remove the rule 2.


Chacal

Some thoughts from overnight.

1) Allow the Sorc to use his Cha bonus on Spellcraft as well as Concentration. He understands magic with an intuitive sense (which I suppose should be a Wis bonus, but...). I think Knowledge (Arcana) should stay Int, though.

2)In exchange for the familiar, I'd like to see the Sorc have something along the lines of an aura that...does something. I'm not sure. I was thinking something like a constant bane effect centered on the Sorc and only affecting rolls against the Sorc. It should be something that either scales with the Sorc's levels or allows different powers at different levels. It might also give a good way to tie in with the Sorc's power origins: dragon blood causes a fear effect, elemental blood causes elemental damage, celestial blood makes the area consecrated, etc.

With all that charisma and innate magic it just seems like the Sorc should be radiating power like a lamp.

good idea.  I like the flavor, more like mages in literature.  the have a small repertoire of spells but, as they get better, they can do more with them.  Magic missile gets better - if you're willing to spend the high level slots.  It's also makes their casting more dynamic, like in fiction.  You have your standard damaging spell for typical use but you can pump it up when you really need to expend the effort.

It also solves the issue of how weak most of the PHB metamagic is.  If you're getting it for free, no reason to complain.

Just make it clear in the write up that the free metamagic applies only to their sorcerer spells. Otherwise, you'll get munchkins taking one level of sorcerer and using all the metamagic for their 19th level spellcaster.

Looking over the metamagic feats. The only feat that requires "any other metamagic feat" and has a +0 spell level adjustment is Cooperative Spell, which doesn't seem like it would break the game. I think all the rest would probably be balanced by the spell level adjustment and longer casting time.

Okay, I like what I'm reading here.  :)  I will ponder each of the ideas further...

Here's a thought I had last night: the Nothingland alt.sorcerer that I and a number of other people tinkered with had access to all wizard, cleric, and druid spells.  The idea was to allow even more spellcasters from legend and fiction to be duplicated.  I was thinking about that in connection with this alt.sorcerer, but I'm not sure that it wouldn't be too powerful.  It wasn't with that older version of the sorcerer, but I'm not sure about this one.

Given the Sorc's limited number of spells,that doesn't seem too bad. The ability to use scrolls/wands of any kind might be a little powerful, though.

Well, who says that sorcerers can use scrolls and wands of ANY kind?  Since their magic is innate and not studied, it just occured to me that they've got no business using scrolls.  And since 3e wands are just efficiently packaged 50 packs of scrolls, they're the same deal.

Maybe give them access to Use Magic Device -- it's as thematically appropriate for them as it is for the warlock.  It's also Cha based, so they're likely to be good at it -- but they aren't automatically able to use all scrolls and wands straight out of the gate.

That's what I was thinking, too.

What's the status of familiars, then?

Also, how do you address spells that have both arcane/divine versions at different levels? Always the higher or lower level? And the sorceror still casts spells as arcane, even if they are on the divine lists, right?

Dead.  Not like most sorcerers take familiars, anyway.  And if they really want one, there's a feat out there that will let them do it.

I'm just not sure what would be the best thing to replace 'em.  Something cool.  I like your innate magic idea, maybe something Cha-based, but I'm not sure what.  Maybe a series of minor, mostly flavour-based powers -- like the magister, though not stolen wholesale from them.

Well, I think removing wands and scrolls is going to make lower level sorceror's suck even more. They won't be able to use their cool metamagic stuff yet, and they no longer have the magic missile pistol wand to use after they expend their limited spells. So, I think the familiar replacement should be something that helps at lower levels.

Hmm.  Well, let me think about it for a while.  I've got AE with me today, so maybe something will jump out at me from it.  :)

Random crazy idea about scrolls and wands for sorcerers:
how about allowing them to use the craft/scribe feats to store power in themselves  (you could rationalize it by focusing on oneself and transcending stuff or whatever weird magical theory you could think of...). Creation costs and activation would be left unchanged.

Some pros :
- when you're the wand/scroll, you can't be stealed/removed (well, almost :p)
- no equipment slot is needed (though a maximum of "wands/scrolls"  related to the levels should exist, or maybe having too much energy stored in a body could have potentially harmful side effects)

Some cons :
you can't buy or sell your "wands/scrolls"  (A strange ritual/ feat /power given by a prestige class/organization) could help transfering charges from one sorcerer to another, though.)

 
Chacal

Another idea: add Intimidate to skill list (with increase in skill points), allow sorcerors to make Intimidate check in combat as free action against all enemies within X feet. This would be a function of the powerful aura I was talking about.

Hmm.  That is an intriguing idea.

I was thinking of maybe having a selection of different abilities to choose from.  I usually play fighters in 3e because they get to choose their abilities.  We've already got a number of ideas in this thread, so it wouldn't be hard to set up something like that.

I'm going to have to get offline soon (I get to train my new supervisor, whee!), but I'll think about this and post more tomorrow.  :)

Another idea about the aura thing. Perhaps have it act like the auras for clerics/paladins, except for detect magic (using the magic item caster level chart). Perhaps at some point the sorceror's personal aura is so powerful that it masks auras from magic items/effects on his person.

I've thought of a possible exploit with the Intimidation aura thing. A creature demoralized (shaken) by the intimidate could be hit with a spell that causes it to become shaken again, turning the effect into frightened. One spell that does this is doom a 1st level cleric spell, which this brand of sorceror would have access to. Is it a problem? I don't know.

I also think the ability should start at 2nd level to stop some cheese-dick rogue with an assload of intimidate from taking one level of sorc to benefit. First level abilities could be the CHA bonus to Concentration and Spellcraft, which I suppose a bard could exploit, but who cares.

Further thoughts about the intimidation aura: as a free action  it would be used every round, and an opposed roll is a clunky mechanic to do every round. So it should either a)have a different "save" mechanic or b) change to a move action. I'd lean towards the move action because it still ties it to the skill, tones it down some, but still allows for spellcasting in the same round.

Well, it would also make sense for the Intimidate to be a free action available only once per scene.  (You'll have to forgive me for using the Exalted time unit.  :p )  There's a limit to how many times a single person can actually try to scare you.

Still thinking.  I'll post more later.  :)

As a riff of Chacal's idea about internal scrolls:

These invested spells can be transferred between sorcerors requiring physical contact and  one full round of concentration per spell level. An unwilling target gets a save/opposed cha check. Deceased targets lose these invested spells after X hours. Abilities/feats could change this ability making the time shorter, allowing it to be done at range, etc.

This could add a bit of a dark, ghoulish element to the class as evil sorcerors suck the stored spells out of their victims.

final fantasy VIII....

The Draw System...

:shudder:

Quote from: Berger KingThis could add a bit of a dark, ghoulish element to the class as evil sorcerors suck the stored spells out of their victims.

Oooh... I like ! :)


Chacal

Quote from: CyberzombieWell, it would also make sense for the Intimidate to be a free action available only once per scene.  (You'll have to forgive me for using the Exalted time unit.  :p )  There's a limit to how many times a single person can actually try to scare you.

Still thinking.  I'll post more later.  :)

They call that encounter in D&D :)

Just check the text in the barbarian rage.

Quote from: ChacalOooh... I like ! :)


Chacal

It also allows a party to loot these "scrolls" from enemy sorcerors, but only if there is a PC sorceror to take them. Making the "scrolls" totally untouchable seems a little unfair.

@Cyberzombie: if it is just once per encounter, then a free action sounds good. Perhaps have it target all enemies within 50' (the radius of a bane spell). Since it's only once, should we make the duration of the shakeness be longer than 1 round?

Cyberzombie, you should post a summary of what you're thinking about at this point.

Another idea for a selectable sorceror power: (this may exist as a feat somewhere, I don't know)

Overbearing Power (Su):As a swift action the Sorc can expend a spell slot to add a bonus to the DC of one spell. The bonus is equal to the level of the expended spell slot. Only sorceror spell slots can be expended, and only sorceror spells can be improved by this ability.

A similar power could be developed to increase caster level checks to defeat SR.


Edit-changed free action to swift action, and limit to one spell

The logical extension would be:

Arcane Grace (Su): As an immediate action the Sorc can expend a spell slot to add a bonus to his saving throw versus a spell or spell-like ability. The bonus is equal to the level of the expended spell slot. Only sorceror spell slots can be expended to gain the benefits of this ability.


The PHB2 has a heritage feat called Celestial Sorceror Aura that creates an effect similar to demoralizing through intimidate. The sorc has to expend a spell slot and all the hostiles within 20 feet have to make a Will save. The effect lasts until the target hits the sorceror.

Quote from: Berger KingCyberzombie, you should post a summary of what you're thinking about at this point.

I'll try to get that done today; tomorrow at the latest.  I got distracted yesterday by Civ IV.  I think I played for 10 hours.  :heh:

Of course one of the selectable powers could be the ubiquitous (triple word score!) bonus feat. What feats would be appropriate?

-Celestial/Fiendish Heritage feats from PHB2 ,  Draconic Heritage feats from Complete Arcane, Bloodline feats from Dragon Mag
-Metamagic or Item Creation-should Sorcs be able to create items?
-Spell Focus/Greater Spell Focus?
-Spell Penetration/Greater Spell Penetration?
-Persuasive, other Cha related feats that seem appropriate?
-Arcane Mastery, Arcane Strike, Arcane Defense?

Other idea: grant the sorceror the benefits of a bloodline from UA without having to pay the level costs. Not sure how the balance would work for this, maybe only give benefits of a minor bloodline, or make it use up ability choices at higher levels (i.e. the sorc can select one of these powers at 2, 6, and 15th level-if he chooses minor than he loses the 2nd, intermediate 2 and 6, major 2, 6, and 15).

Edit-Could be exploited by multiclassing though. Hmmm. Perhaps he only gains the benefits of the bloodline level at that level of sorceror.

Quote from: Berger KingEdit-Could be exploited by multiclassing though. Hmmm. Perhaps he only gains the benefits of the bloodline level at that level of sorceror.

I could see using the bloodlines.  And it would make sense for the bloodline powers to only show up on levels where you're taking a level of sorcerer.  Hell, that might make more sense than the bloodlines do normally.  :)

I'd have to actually look at the bloodlines to tell you what level would be appropriate.  My gut feeling is intermediate, but I'd want to look at 'em.  Intermediate would also open up most of the bloodlines, since a number of cool ones don't have major bloodlines.

They're at http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/bloodlines.htm (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/bloodlines.htm)

Cool.  I gotta look at that site more.  :)

I'd have no problem giving sorcerers the Intermediate abilities, with no level cost or anything -- but only for sorcerer levels.  They would get some decent feats out of it, but they don't have much choice on what feat they get.  And intermediate would open up all the dragon types, too.

What do you think?

Quote from: CyberzombieI'd have to actually look at the bloodlines to tell you what level would be appropriate.  My gut feeling is intermediate, but I'd want to look at 'em.  Intermediate would also open up most of the bloodlines, since a number of cool ones don't have major bloodlines.

This would work because almost all of the bloodlines have intermediate, and most of the dragon bloodlines don't have major. I think having the bloodlines is flavorful given the default origin of sorcerous powers. I don't think any of the bloodlines would be super useful to a spellcaster. We have a vampire major bloodline rogue in our group( lvl 9) and he takes a big hurtin' because he lost 2 levels of hit points. He does like that cold resistance, though

Quote from: CyberzombieCool.  I gotta look at that site more.  :)

I'd have no problem giving sorcerers the Intermediate abilities, with no level cost or anything -- but only for sorcerer levels.  They would get some decent feats out of it, but they don't have much choice on what feat they get.  And intermediate would open up all the dragon types, too.

What do you think?

This also works if you make the multiple choice power selection available at Sorceror level 2.

Cool idea, CZ.

Now, I'm a big advocate of using what's already there, slightly modified...  Why make up something new, if we've already got something that works just fine.  With that in mind, here's a few ideas...

1) Metamagic.  Give the alt.sorcerer a bonus feat progression like that of a fighter (One at 1st level, and one at every even level thereafter).  Bonus feats may be selected from the Metamagic or Item Creation lists.  It's simple, straightforward, rewards continued levels in Sorcerer, penalizes taking a PrC, and provides a magical equivalent of the Fighter class.

2) Spell List.  I like the idea of being able to pick spells off of multiple spell lists, but you'll need to address the fact that some spells are different levels for different classes.  Also, you'll need to specify that all spells cast by the Sorcerer are considered Arcane spells.

3) Spell Trigger and Spell Activation Magic items.  For the purposes of
spell trigger and spell activation, a Sorcerer's known spells are considered to be his spell list...  In other words, he can use scrolls and wands, but only for those spells he already knows.  Also, I think giving Sorcerers the Use Magic Device skill as a class skill is a great idea.  It gives him a less reliable chance to use scrolls and wands that he aren't on his known spell list.

4) Familiars.  Can 'em.  If used poorly, they're just another bonus.  If used properly, they're nearly useless and a liability.

5) Intimidating Aura.  Just use Fear Aura (Su) or Frightful Presence (Ex) both are listed in the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#fear) and are commonly used as special abilities for monsters.  Of the two, I'd recommend Frightful Presence.

Quote from: Cyclotron3) Spell Trigger and Spell Activation Magic items.[/B]  For the purposes of
spell trigger and spell activation, a Sorcerer's known spells are considered to be his spell list...  In other words, he can use scrolls and wands, but only for those spells he already knows.  Also, I think giving Sorcerers the Use Magic Device skill as a class skill is a great idea.  It gives him a less reliable chance to use scrolls and wands that he aren't on his known spell list.

This would work. I like Chacal's ideas for making things a little more flavorful for the sorceror, but if we want to stay simple I like this

Quote from: Cyclotron 5) Intimidating Aura.  Just use Fear Aura (Su) or Frightful Presence (Ex) both are listed in the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#fear) and are commonly used as special abilities for monsters.  Of the two, I'd recommend Frightful Presence.

This is good. I'd tone down the listed duration of 5d6 rounds. I'd also list the specific actions a sorceror would have to take to initiate the Frightful Presence. I can't see him "charging" or "snarling" as described in SRD. At DC 10+1/2 Sorc level +Cha that could make for a nasty Will save. Perhaps also limit the effect to shaken (with no advance to frightened)

Quote from: Berger KingThis would work. I like Chacal's ideas for making things a little more flavorful for the sorceror, but if we want to stay simple I like this

I'm very fond of simple...  Or at least consistent...  rules.

Quote from: Berger KingThis is good. I'd tone down the listed duration of 5d6 rounds.

That's easy enough, and probably a good idea.

Quote from: Berger KingI'd also list the specific actions a sorceror would have to take to initiate the Frightful Presence. I can't see him "charging" or "snarling" as described in SRD.

Oh, no, of course not... Those are only suggestions from the Monster Manual, since the ability is geared mainly as a special ability for monsters.

For a Sorcerer, you could make it a move equivalent or standard action to activate, as the Sorcerer "manifests his unearthly powers" or some such... His eyes glow red, or his hair stands on end and crackles with electricity, or the lights dim and he seems to grow in stature as his voice reverberates ominously (COUGH! Gandalf COUGH!), or rainbow-colored disco lights shoot out of his ass, or whatever.

Quote from: Berger KingAt DC 10+1/2 Sorc level +Cha that could make for a nasty Will save.

It's not as bad as it seems...  That DC will be roughly equal to the DC
(maybe slightly higher, due to that 3rd-level spell delay in the Sorcerer's spellcasting progression) of the highest level spells the Sorcerer can cast.

Also, don't forget that PrC levels won't advance that DC.

Quote from: Berger KingPerhaps also limit the effect to shaken (with no advance to frightened)

That would probably be best... Of course you could always increase Shaken to Frightened via class ability (Improved Frightful Presence) at, say, 10th level, and then to Panicked at 20th (Greater Frightful Presence), as a bonus for staying with the class.

As a reference, the only two MM creatures I can find that have frightful presence are Dragons, and the Tarrasque...

Frightful Presence (Ex): A young adult or older dragon can unsettle foes with its mere presence. The ability takes effect automatically whenever the dragon attacks, charges, or flies overhead. Creatures within a radius of 30 feet x the dragon’s age category are subject to the effect if they have fewer HD than the dragon. A potentially affected creature that succeeds on a Will save (DC 10 + 1/2 dragon’s HD + dragon’s Cha modifier) remains immune to that dragon’s frightful presence for 24 hours. On a failure, creatures with 4 or less HD become panicked for 4d6 rounds and those with 5 or more HD become shaken for 4d6 rounds. Dragons ignore the frightful presence of other dragons.

Frightful Presence (Su): The tarrasque can inspire terror by charging or attacking. Affected creatures must succeed on a DC 36 Will save or become shaken, remaining in that condition as long as they remain with 60 feet of the tarrasque. The save DC is Charisma-based.

Quote from: Cyclotron 1) Metamagic.  Give the alt.sorcerer a bonus feat progression like that of a fighter (One at 1st level, and one at every even level thereafter).  Bonus feats may be selected from the Metamagic or Item Creation lists.  It's simple, straightforward, rewards continued levels in Sorcerer, penalizes taking a PrC, and provides a magical equivalent of the Fighter class.

Actually, I think I might use that idea for the *wizard*.  I like my metamagic idea better -- though I think I'll rename it "spellshaping" and make the differences from the feats clear -- but that sounds like a fine idea to make the wizard more flavourful.  It would also make it easier to make prestige classes that don't suck, since you'd actually *have* an ability to take away.  :)

Quote from: Cyclotron 2) Spell List.  I like the idea of being able to pick spells off of multiple spell lists, but you'll need to address the fact that some spells are different levels for different classes.  Also, you'll need to specify that all spells cast by the Sorcerer are considered Arcane spells.

Point two first -- "All sorcerer spells are considered Arcane spells."  There.  Done!  :heh:  As for the first part, I'd give them the spell at the lowest level it is available on the cleric, druid, or wizard list.  I think they can live without the handful of paladin spells not on those lists, and I'd intentionally not include the bard spells.

Quote from: Cyclotron3) Spell Trigger and Spell Activation Magic items.  For the purposes of
spell trigger and spell activation, a Sorcerer's known spells are considered to be his spell list...  In other words, he can use scrolls and wands, but only for those spells he already knows.  Also, I think giving Sorcerers the Use Magic Device skill as a class skill is a great idea.  It gives him a less reliable chance to use scrolls and wands that he aren't on his known spell list.

I'd just simplify it and not let them use scrolls or wands.  Not that that is going to be a big handicap -- with Use Magic Device as a class skill, they'll still be able to use them easily enough.  :)

Quote from: Cyclotron 4) Familiars.  Can 'em.  If used poorly, they're just another bonus.  If used properly, they're nearly useless and a liability.

Done!  :D

Quote from: Cyclotron 5) Intimidating Aura.  Just use Fear Aura (Su) or Frightful Presence (Ex) both are listed in the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#fear) and are commonly used as special abilities for monsters.  Of the two, I'd recommend Frightful Presence.

I'd have to look over which version to use, but that sounds like a great 1st level ability.  The spellshaping and the bloodline are great for higher levels, but the class still needs something at 1st level.  Since they're supposed to be scary loners, anyway, why not back it up with game stats?  :D

Quote from: CyberzombieActually, I think I might use that idea for the *wizard*.  I like my metamagic idea better -- though I think I'll rename it "spellshaping" and make the differences from the feats clear -- but that sounds like a fine idea to make the wizard more flavourful.  It would also make it easier to make prestige classes that don't suck, since you'd actually *have* an ability to take away.  :)

I think this is the core that makes it cool.  Extra bonus feats would entail planning out which metamagic works for you.  Being able to wing it is more in line with a the idea of a sorcerer to me.  They are already heavily limited by spell list, they need to be able to stretch out a bit in other ways.

Cyberzombie, if you want to have a set of powers to pick from at certain levels, which levels would you use?

Quote from: Berger KingCyberzombie, if you want to have a set of powers to pick from at certain levels, which levels would you use?

Currently, I'm kind of enamored with the bloodlines idea.  If I run with that, I'd go ahead and give the sorcerer a normal spell progression, where they get new spell levels on every odd level.

Ah, fuck it.  Consider that done, in any case.  :D

The bloodlines would give powers on every even level.  If we go with a choice of powers, I think I'd want the same.  If they were really cool powers, and it seemed like every other level was too powerful, I'd go with every 4th level.

I'm impatient and bored at work. Is this a pretty good summary of what you're thinking CZ?



NKL Sorceror

Alignment: Any.

Hit Die: d4.

Class Skills
The sorcerer’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Bluff (Cha), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (arcana) (Int), Profession (Wis),  Spellcraft (Int), and Use Magic Device (Cha).

Skill Points at 1st Level: (4 + Int modifier) x 4.

Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 4 + Int modifier.

BAB: As PHB Sorceror
Saves: As PHB Sorceror
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: As PHB Sorceror
Spells Known and Spells/Day: As PHB Sorceror, except Sorceror can select spells from Sorceror/Wizard, Cleric, or Druid spell lists. When a spell is on multiple lists, the Sorceror gains the spell at the lowest listed level. All Sorceror spells are cast as Arcane spells.

Special:
1-Eschew Materials, Innate Metamagic, Sorcerous Bloodline, No Scroll/Wand Use,
2-Bloodline Ability, Sorceror Ability
3-
4-Bloodline Ability, Sorceror Ability
5-
6-Bloodline Ability, Sorceror Ability
7-
8-Bloodline Ability, Sorceror Ability
9-
10-Bloodline Ability, Sorceror Ability
11-
12-Bloodline Ability, Sorceror Ability
13-
14-Bloodline Ability, Sorceror Ability
15-
16-Bloodline Ability, Sorceror Ability
17-
18-Bloodline Ability, Sorceror Ability
19-
20-Bloodline Ability, Sorceror Ability

Edit-Added skills

Wow.  I'm busy at work, which is why I haven't done such an update yet, but that's more or less what I had in mind.  :)

I was going to add more Cha skills -- Intimidate is a must-have, I think.  Handle Animal is right out -- mages of lore often scared the bejesus out of critters.  Diplomacy would be perfect for a Cha monster, but I'm not sure whether it fits the class or not.

What do you think of having some sort of intimidation ability at 1st level?

Do you think it would be *too* much to have a bloodline and other abilities, too?

Quote from: CyberzombieWow.  I'm busy at work, which is why I haven't done such an update yet, but that's more or less what I had in mind.  :)

I was going to add more Cha skills -- Intimidate is a must-have, I think.  Handle Animal is right out -- mages of lore often scared the bejesus out of critters.  Diplomacy would be perfect for a Cha monster, but I'm not sure whether it fits the class or not.

What do you think of having some sort of intimidation ability at 1st level?

Do you think it would be *too* much to have a bloodline and other abilities, too?

Yeah. It's been a slow week for me.

I think if the other abilities were spread farther apart it might be better. Plus, then we don't have to think of ten cool abilities.

I'll edit in Intimidate. I don't really like Diplomacy either, as it seems more based on the fact that a Sorc has charisma than on theme or style. Leave the nice-nice to the Paladins and the Bards.

Quote from: CyberzombieWhat do you think of having some sort of intimidation ability at 1st level?

How about something that replicates the effects of a Command spell, but tied to Intimidate? Commanding Presence or Voice of Power or something. Possibly make the "save" an opposed check using (1d20 + character level or Hit Dice + target’s Wisdom bonus [if any] + target’s modifiers on saves against fear) which is the check for demoralizing in combat.

QuoteYou give the subject a single command, which it obeys to the best of its ability at its earliest opportunity. You may select from the following options.

Approach
On its turn, the subject moves toward you as quickly and directly as possible for 1 round. The creature may do nothing but move during its turn, and it provokes attacks of opportunity for this movement as normal.

Drop
On its turn, the subject drops whatever it is holding. It can’t pick up any dropped item until its next turn.

Fall
On its turn, the subject falls to the ground and remains prone for 1 round. It may act normally while prone but takes any appropriate penalties.

Flee
On its turn, the subject moves away from you as quickly as possible for 1 round. It may do nothing but move during its turn, and it provokes attacks of opportunity for this movement as normal.

Halt
The subject stands in place for 1 round. It may not take any actions but is not considered helpless.

If the subject can’t carry out your command on its next turn, the spell automatically fails.

Or maybe Detect Magic at will because the Sorc is so in tune with magical power? That's not really tied to Intimidate, though.

Another idea, which might be replicated by feats/abilities I've seen somewhere:

As a standard action the Sorc makes an Intimidate check to project an aura of menace until the beginning of his next turn. Any enemy must make a check (1d20 + character level or Hit Dice + target’s Wisdom bonus [if any] + target’s modifiers on saves against fear) in order to target the sorceror with spells or attacks (including Attacks of Opportunity). This ability has no effect on spells or attacks that affect an area that the sorceror is included in.

This would allow the sorceror to stride through his foes, or cover his ass...I mean take time to assess the situation. Of course this opens up more abuse from multiclass, as a rogue/sorc could just skip tumble and intimidate his way into flanking position, though he wouldn't be able to do any sneak attacking 'til his next turn...

Edit-added bit about AoO

I've been thinking. Cyberzombie, you say you want this sorceror to be customizable like a sorceror and able to replicate magic types from myth and legend. Perhaps we're leaning too heavily on the D&D "sorceror's power comes from dragon/celestial/etc. blood"  gimmick. I think we should make the bloodline one of the selectable powers, so people can play a non-bloodline style sorceror if they want.

I think the extra skill points, spells from any list, Eschew Materials, and free Energy Substitution [any] is a pretty decent first level. Then give choosable abilities at level2,6,10,14, and 18.

I also think we should list the virtual metamagic feats the Sorc gets just to be explicit and clear. I'll be bored at work again today, so I can try to summarize the feats and powers.

Quote from: Berger KingI've been thinking. Cyberzombie, you say you want this sorceror to be customizable like a sorceror and able to replicate magic types from myth and legend. Perhaps we're leaning too heavily on the D&D "sorceror's power comes from dragon/celestial/etc. blood"  gimmick. I think we should make the bloodline one of the selectable powers, so people can play a non-bloodline style sorceror if they want.

Good point, really.  It's overly D&D-centric, as you say.  I just got overexcited over the prospect of making the bloodlines more useful.  :)

Quote from: Berger KingI think the extra skill points, spells from any list, Eschew Materials, and free Energy Substitution [any] is a pretty decent first level. Then give choosable abilities at level2,6,10,14, and 18.

Again, correct.  And if they have Intimidate as a class skill, that gives them some fear abilities, even if they're minor.  They'll be decent, since it's a Cha skill.

Quote from: Berger KingI also think we should list the virtual metamagic feats the Sorc gets just to be explicit and clear. I'll be bored at work again today, so I can try to summarize the feats and powers.

Yeah, that's why I was talking about calling it "spellshaping" in one of my posts -- make it clear exactly what they can do, and make it obvious that they aren't getting free metamagic to use for all their classes.

Thanks for your interest in this!  I love working on this kind of shit with other people.  :win:

NKL Sorceror

Alignment: Any.

Hit Die: d4.

Class Skills
The sorcerer’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Bluff (Cha), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (arcana) (Int), Profession (Wis),Spellcraft (Int), and Use Magic Device (Cha).

Skill Points at 1st Level: (4 + Int modifier) x 4.

Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 4 + Int modifier.

BAB: As PHB Sorceror
Saves: As PHB Sorceror

Special:
  1-Eschew Materials, Innate Spellshaping, Power from Within
  2-Sorcery
  3-
  4-
  5-
  6-Sorcery
  7-
  8-
  9-
10-Sorcery
11-
12-
13-
14-Sorcery
15-
16-
17-
18-Sorcery
19-
20-

Class Features

Weapon and Armor Proficiency

As PHB Sorceror

Spells

As PHB Sorceror, except the sorceror can select spells from the Sorceror/Wizard, Cleric, or Druid spell lists. All Sorceror spells are cast as Arcane spells.

Eschew Materials

At 1st level, a sorceror gains Eschew Materials as a bonus feat.

Innate Spellshaping (Su)

The sorceror's intimate connection to magic allows him to alter his spells simply through innate talent. As a full round action a sorceror may cast a spell as if altered by a single metamagic feat. The level of the spell is increasesed as described in the feat used. Only sorceror spells may be altered by this ability. These virtual feats can be used to meet the requirements for other feats or classes.

The virtual metamagic feats granted by this power (and their spell level adjustments) are:

Cooperative Spell (+0)
Energy Substitution [any] (+0)
Enlarge Spell (+1)
Extend Spell (+1)
Sculpt Spell (+1)
Silent Spell (+1)
Still Spell (+1)
Transdimensional Spell (+1)
Empower Spell (+2)
Explosive Spell (+2)
Reach Spell (+2)
Split Ray (+2)
Chain Spell (+3)
Delay Spell (+3)
Maximize Spell (+3)
Repeat Spell (+3)
Widen Spell (+3)
Twin Spell (+4)
Persistent Spell (+6)
Fortify Spell (Variable)
Heighten Spell (Variable)

The sorceror may also use metamagic feats selected as feats, bonus feats, or gained from other classes to further alter a spell. The spell level increases as described in the feat, and the casting time remains one full round. Example: A sorceror could cast magic missile using Innate Spellshaping to replicate the Still Spell feat, while also using his feat Silent Spell to further alter it. The spell would be 3rd level and require one full round to cast.

Power from Within (Ex)

Unlike the wizard, who must spend his life studying magic, a sorceror's arcane power is an inborn talent. A sorceror may use his Charisma bonus in place of his Constitution bonus when making a Concentration check involving spellcasting. Additionally, the sorceror's natural understanding of magic allows him to use his Charisma bonus instead of his Intelligence bonus when making a Spellcraft check.

Because their power comes from within, sorcerors are unable to use spell completion or spell trigger activated items like wizards or clerics. However, they may still utilize the Use Magic Device skill to attempt to activate these items.

Sorcery

At 2nd level, and again at 4th, 10th, 14th, and 18th level the sorcer may choose one power of sorcery from the following list:

Sorcerous Bloodline
The sorceror gains the benefits of an Intermediate Bloodline as described in the alternate race rules. The sorceror does not have to take Bloodline levels at 6th and 12th level as described in the rules. However, the sorceror only gains the benefits listed when he has reached that level in the sorceror class, rather than his overall character level. If this ability is chosen after 2nd level the sorceror still gains all the benefits up to his current level.



Reserves of Power (Su)
Through meditation and arcane ritual a sorceror can invest the power of any spell that he knows within himself. The base price of an invested spell is its spell level × its caster level × 25 gp. To invest a spell, you must spend 1/25 of this base price in XP and use up raw materials in the rituals costing one-half of this base price. Investing the spell takes one day of meditation for each 1,000 gp in its base price. Invested spells are activated in the same way as spell completion items.

Any invested spell with a costly material component or an XP cost also carries a commensurate cost. In addition to the costs derived from the base price, you must expend the material component or pay the XP when investing the spell.

Unlike scrolls or other items, invested spells cannot be stolen or destroyed as they have no physical form. An invested spell may be transferred to or from another sorceror. This process requires physical contact and one full round of concentration per level of the invested spell. An unwilling target must succeed at an opposed Charsima check to stop the process. Invested spells fade away completely one hour after the death of a sorceror. Transferred spells may be used by a sorceror even if he does not know that spell.



Overbearing Power (Su) As a swift action the sorceror can expend a spell slot to add a bonus to the DC of his next spell (or 1 round, whichever comes first). The bonus is equal to the level of the expended spell slot. Only sorceror spell slots can be expended, and only sorceror spells can be improved by this ability.


Irresistible Power (Su) As a swift action the sorceror can expend a spell slot to add a bonus to his next caster level check to overcome SR (or 1 round, whichever comes first). The bonus is equal to the level of the expended spell slot. Only sorceror spell slots can be expended, and only sorceror spells can be improved by this ability.


Arcane Grace (Su) As an immediate action the sorceror can expend a spell slot to add a bonus to his saving throw versus a spell or spell-like ability. The bonus is equal to the level of the expended spell slot. Only sorceror spell slots can be expended to gain the benefits of this ability.


Intimidating Command (Su) As a standard action the sorceror can make an Intimidate check against one target within range (30 feet). The target must make an opposed roll  (1d20 + character level or Hit Dice + target’s Wisdom bonus [if any] + target’s modifiers on saves against fear) or be subject to the effect of a Command spell with no saving throw. Spell resistance does apply.


Intimidating Presence (Su) As a standard action the sorceror can make an Intimidate check to project an intimidating presence. This presence lasts for a number of rounds equal to his Charisma bonus (minimum 1). Any opponent attempting to strike or otherwise directly attack the warded creature, even with a targeted spell, must attempt  a check (1d20 + character level or Hit Dice + target’s Wisdom bonus [if any] + target’s modifiers on saves against fear). The DC is the sorceror's Intimidation check. If the check succeeds, the opponent can attack normally and is unaffected by the intimidating presence. If the check fails, the opponent can’t follow through with the attack, that part of its action is lost, and it can’t directly attack the sorceror for the duration of the effect. Those not attempting to attack the subject remain unaffected. This ability does not prevent the sorceror from being attacked or affected by area or effect spells. The sorceror cannot attack without breaking the spell but may use nonattack spells or otherwise act.

Demoralizing Presence (Su) Makes target/targets shaken. Unsure of mechanics

Frightful Presence (Su) Makes targets frightened. Requires Demoralizing Presence ability. Unsure of mechanics

Terrifying Presence (Su) Makes targets panicked. Requires Demoralizing Presence and Frightful Presence abilities. Unsure of mechanics.

-Edit 1)Changed Intimidating Presence to work like Sanctuary

The class looks great.  :win:  And a lot more interesting than the base sorcerer.

On the powers -- one I'd like to see is the magister-stylez powers to use Cha for physical abilities.  I think those powers could just be lifted directly, changing "Int" to "Cha".

I'm not sure whether sorcerous bloodline is too powerful in comparison to the other abilities or not.  The intermediate bloodlines really aren't that potent, so I'm leaning towards it not being too powerful, but I'm still not 100% sure.

Overbearing Power and Irresistable Power -- I was going to say that they sounded weak, but then I noticed that they're swift actions.  If you can do that *and* use spellshaping, it's far from weak.

Intimidating Presence -- it's similar to sanctuary, but doesn't require a spell slot to use and probably has a better saving throw.  I'm not sure about the duration, though.  That seems awfully short for something you're giving up your action for.

The fear abilities -- I'm not sure of the mechanics, either.  When fear effects come up in my games, the players usually save, so it doesn't come up much.  :)

Quote from: CyberzombieOn the powers -- one I'd like to see is the magister-stylez powers to use Cha for physical abilities.  I think those powers could just be lifted directly, changing "Int" to "Cha".

Cool. Should it replace all physical checks or just Str? And just ability checks, right? Not skills?

Quote from: CyberzombieI'm not sure whether sorcerous bloodline is too powerful in comparison to the other abilities or not.  The intermediate bloodlines really aren't that potent, so I'm leaning towards it not being too powerful, but I'm still not 100% sure."

The bonuses are nice, but I don't think they add directly to a sorceror's strengths. Any Cha bonuses are usually +1 and at the higher levels.

Quote from: CyberzombieOverbearing Power and Irresistable Power -- I was going to say that they sounded weak, but then I noticed that they're swift actions.  If you can do that *and* use spellshaping, it's far from weak.

Yup. You could burn through your spells pretty quickly, though.

Quote from: CyberzombieIntimidating Presence -- it's similar to sanctuary, but doesn't require a spell slot to use and probably has a better saving throw.  I'm not sure about the duration, though.  That seems awfully short for something you're giving up your action for.

I envisioned it as more of a protection/escape ability. If you are threatened or just don't want to dick around with some enemy you can use the power and either stand there laughing at them, or walk right past their impotent asses. If you make it last longer you'd have to add a sanctuary-style limitation and make attacking end the effect. Otherwise you'd be an unassailable spellcasting fortress.

Quote from: CyberzombieThe fear abilities -- I'm not sure of the mechanics, either.  When fear effects come up in my games, the players usually save, so it doesn't come up much.  :)

This is a hard one to balance. Make it too potent and all your challenges are running away, too weak and it's...uh...too weak.

Quote from: Berger KingCool. Should it replace all physical checks or just Str? And just ability checks, right? Not skills?

I can't remember the exact wording.  If I remember right, there is a base power and an improved version.  I'll have to look it up tonight when I get home.

Quote from: Berger KingThe bonuses are nice, but I don't think they add directly to a sorceror's strengths. Any Cha bonuses are usually +1 and at the higher levels.

That's true.  And the feats, while nice, are rarely really useful to a sorcerer.

Quote from: Berger KingYup. You could burn through your spells pretty quickly, though.

The spellshaping could burn through high-level slots quickly, too.  But I think it's appropriate to a lot of genre stories -- you've got a lot of power, but you can also use it up too quickly, leaving yourself open.  

Quote from: Berger KingI envisioned it as more of a protection/escape ability. If you are threatened or just don't want to dick around with some enemy you can use the power and either stand there laughing at them, or walk right past their impotent asses. If you make it last longer you'd have to add a sanctuary-style limitation and make attacking end the effect. Otherwise you'd be an unassailable spellcasting fortress.

True.  If it's for getaways, though, I think it might be good to have it last Cha bonus rounds and have the sanctuary limitations.  A decent sorcerer should be able to get away in 3 or 4 rounds; in one, quite possibly not.

Quote from: Berger KingThis is a hard one to balance. Make it too potent and all your challenges are running away, too weak and it's...uh...too weak.

Yeah.  And it's hard to determine what is a really good duration for it.

Time to look at the SRD and ponder.  :)

I changed the Intimidating Presence to act more like the Sanctuary spell.

Quote from: Berger KingI changed the Intimidating Presence to act more like the Sanctuary spell.

Looks good to me.  Cool.  :)

What do you think of this?

Demoralizing Presence (Su) As a move action a sorceror can manifest a Demoralizing Presence. All enemies within a radius of 10' X 1/2 sorceror level must make a Will save (DC 10 + 1/2 sorceror level + Cha modifier) or become shaken for a number of rounds equal to twice the sorceror's Charisma modifier. A succesful save negates the effect. A potentially affected creature that succeeds on the Will save remains immune to the sorceror's Demoralizing Presence for 24 hours. This fear effect is cumulative with other fear effects but does not stack with itself.


Frightful Presence (Su) Requires Demoralizing Presence. As a standard action a sorceror can manifest a Frightful Presence. All enemies within a radius of 10' X 1/2 sorceror level must make a Will save (DC 10 + 1/2 sorceror level + Cha modifier) or become frightened for a number of rounds equal to twice the sorceror's Charisma modifier. On a succesful save the target is shaken for 1 round. A creature that succeeds on the Will save remains immune to the sorceror's Frightful Presence for 24 hours. This fear effect is cumulative with other fear effects but does not stack with itself.



Terrifying Presence (Su) Requires Demoralizing Presence and Frightful Presence. As a full round action a sorceror can manifest a Terrifying Presence. All enemies within a radius of 10' X 1/2 sorceror level must make a Will save (DC 10 + 1/2 sorceror level + Cha modifier) or become panicked for a number of rounds equal to twice the sorceror's Charisma modifier. On a succesful save the target is shaken for 1 round. A creature that succeeds on the Will save remains immune to the sorceror's Terrifying Presence for 24 hours. This fear effect is cumulative with other fear effects but does not stack with itself.

How about this as one of the choices?

Bonus Feat A sorceror may choose a bonus feat from the following list instead of a sorcery power. The sorceror must still meet all the prerequisites of the feat

-Celestial, Fiendish, or Dragon  Heritage feats
-Bloodline feats from Dragon #311, #325, and #335 (the sorceror does not need to meet the "able to summon a familiar" requirement)
-Metamagic or Item Creation feats
-Spell Focus/Greater Spell Focus
-Spell Penetration/Greater Spell Penetration
-Arcane Mastery
-Obtain Familiar

All of the above looks fine to me.  :)  I like how you did the fear effects -- good, but it doesn't seem overwhelmingly powerful.

Something a la Magister powers (which are at 14th and 22nd level !!!??)

Supreme Willpower (Su) The sorceror's powerful personality combined with his innate magical nature allows him to overcome physical challenges with ease. The sorceror may use his Charisma bonus instead of his Constitution, Dexterity, or Strength bonus when performing physical actions like a Strength check to open a door. This ability also applies to any skill checks using skills based on Strength, Dexterity, or Constitution. The sorceror may also use his Charisma bonus instead of his Strength bonus on opposed grapple checks.


Ultimate Willpower (Su) Requires Supreme Willpower. The sorceror may use his Charisma bonus instead of his Constitution, Dexterity, or Wisdom bonus when making Fortitude, Reflex, or Will saves.

What do you think? Hmmm. Ultimate Willpower is actually worse than a Paladin's Divine Grace. I think it might be too powerful to make the two powers a single choice (especially if gained at 2nd level), but maybe it can be jazzed up a little. Ideas?

I guess one thing that bothers me about the last two is that they give you all their benefits right away and don't invite you to take more levels of sorceror. How about this change:

REAL ULTIMATE WILLPOWER!!!!(Su) Requires Supreme Willpower. The sorceror may use his Charisma bonus instead of his Constitution, Dexterity, or Wisdom bonus when making Fortitude, Reflex, or Will saves. Additionally, the sorceror gains a bonus to all three saves equal to 1/4 his sorceror level (minimum 1).

I don't know what to do with the skill related feat. I guess I just want to avoid somebody cherry picking two levels of sorceror for it. I suppose most people don't cherry pick two levels, and it would really only strongly benefit a Charisma based talky rogue. What do you think?

Well, I don't know.  They're strong abilities, yes, but they're based on everybody's favourite dump stat.  Nor would I really be unhappy to see an ability that benefits Cha-based rogues.

By the time the magister gets those abilities, they are such minor powers that they're only just worth noting.  But even at 2nd level, is supreme willpower really going to give sorcerers that much of a boost?  Especially since they still can't make Dex and Con dump stats -- they need the AC and the hp.

And since REAL ULTIMATE WILLPOWER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1one can only be taken at 6th level or higher, I'm really not worried about it being cherry picked.  If you take 6 levels of something, you're not cherry picking any more.  :D

NKL Sorceror

Alignment: Any.

Hit Die: d4.

Class Skills
The sorcerer’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Bluff (Cha), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (arcana) (Int), Profession (Wis),Spellcraft (Int), and Use Magic Device (Cha).

Skill Points at 1st Level: (4 + Int modifier) x 4.

Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 4 + Int modifier.

BAB: As PHB Sorceror
Saves: As PHB Sorceror

Special:
  1-Eschew Materials, Innate Spellshaping, Power from Within
  2-Sorcery
  3-
  4-
  5-
  6-Sorcery
  7-
  8-
  9-
10-Sorcery
11-
12-
13-
14-Sorcery
15-
16-
17-
18-Sorcery
19-
20-

Class Features

Weapon and Armor Proficiency

As PHB Sorceror

Spells

As PHB Sorceror, except the sorceror can select spells from the Sorceror/Wizard, Cleric, or Druid spell lists. All Sorceror spells are cast as Arcane spells. If a spell is available on more than one list (such as animate dead, which is a 3rd level cleric spell and a 4th level wizard spell), it can be taken at the earliest level that it is available (so it is a 3rd level spell for sorcerers).

Eschew Materials

At 1st level, a sorceror gains Eschew Materials as a bonus feat.

Innate Spellshaping (Su)

The sorceror's intimate connection to magic allows him to alter his spells simply through innate talent. As a full round action a sorceror may cast a spell as if altered by a single metamagic feat. The level of the spell is increasesed as described in the feat used. Only sorceror spells may be altered by this ability. These virtual feats can be used to meet the requirements for other feats or classes.

The virtual metamagic feats granted by this power (and their spell level adjustments) are:

Cooperative Spell (+0)
Energy Substitution [any] (+0)
Enlarge Spell (+1)
Extend Spell (+1)
Sculpt Spell (+1)
Silent Spell (+1)
Still Spell (+1)
Transdimensional Spell (+1)
Empower Spell (+2)
Explosive Spell (+2)
Reach Spell (+2)
Split Ray (+2)
Chain Spell (+3)
Delay Spell (+3)
Maximize Spell (+3)
Repeat Spell (+3)
Widen Spell (+3)
Twin Spell (+4)
Persistent Spell (+6)
Fortify Spell (Variable)
Heighten Spell (Variable)

The sorceror may also use metamagic feats selected as feats, bonus feats, or gained from other classes to further alter a spell. The spell level increases as described in the feat, and the casting time remains one full round. Example: A sorceror could cast magic missile using Innate Spellshaping to replicate the Still Spell feat, while also using his feat Silent Spell to further alter it. The spell would be 3rd level and require one full round to cast.

Power from Within (Ex)

Unlike the wizard, who must spend his life studying magic, a sorceror's arcane power is an inborn talent. A sorceror may use his Charisma bonus in place of his Constitution bonus when making a Concentration check involving spellcasting. Additionally, the sorceror's natural understanding of magic allows him to use his Charisma bonus instead of his Intelligence bonus when making a Spellcraft check.

Because their power comes from within, sorcerors are unable to use spell completion or spell trigger activated items like wizards or clerics. However, they may still utilize the Use Magic Device skill to attempt to activate these items.

Sorcery

At 2nd level, and again at 4th, 10th, 14th, and 18th level the sorcer may choose one power of sorcery from the following list:

Sorcerous Bloodline
The sorceror gains the benefits of an Intermediate Bloodline as described in the alternate race rules. The sorceror does not have to take Bloodline levels at 6th and 12th level as described in the rules. However, the sorceror only gains the benefits listed when he has reached that level in the sorceror class, rather than his overall character level. If this ability is chosen after 2nd level the sorceror still gains all the benefits up to his current level.

Reserves of Power (Su)
Through meditation and arcane ritual a sorceror can invest the power of any spell that he knows within himself. The base price of an invested spell is its spell level × its caster level × 25 gp. To invest a spell, you must spend 1/25 of this base price in XP and use up raw materials in the rituals costing one-half of this base price. Investing the spell takes one day of meditation for each 1,000 gp in its base price. Invested spells are activated in the same way as spell completion items.

Any invested spell with a costly material component or an XP cost also carries a commensurate cost. In addition to the costs derived from the base price, you must expend the material component or pay the XP when investing the spell.

Unlike scrolls or other items, invested spells cannot be stolen or destroyed as they have no physical form. An invested spell may be transferred to or from another sorceror. This process requires physical contact and one full round of concentration per level of the invested spell. An unwilling target must succeed at an opposed Charsima check to stop the process. Invested spells fade away completely one hour after the death of a sorceror. Transferred spells may be used by a sorceror even if he does not know that spell.

Overbearing Power (Su) As a swift action the sorceror can expend a spell slot to add a bonus to the DC of his next spell (or 1 round, whichever comes first). The bonus is equal to the level of the expended spell slot. Only sorceror spell slots can be expended, and only sorceror spells can be improved by this ability.

Irresistible Power (Su) As a swift action the sorceror can expend a spell slot to add a bonus to his next caster level check to overcome SR (or 1 round, whichever comes first). The bonus is equal to the level of the expended spell slot. Only sorceror spell slots can be expended, and only sorceror spells can be improved by this ability.

Arcane Grace (Su) As an immediate action the sorceror can expend a spell slot to add a bonus to his saving throw versus a spell or spell-like ability. The bonus is equal to the level of the expended spell slot. Only sorceror spell slots can be expended to gain the benefits of this ability.

Intimidating Command (Su) As a standard action the sorceror can make an Intimidate check against one target within range (30 feet). The target must make an opposed roll  (1d20 + character level or Hit Dice + target’s Wisdom bonus [if any] + target’s modifiers on saves against fear) or be subject to the effect of a Command spell with no saving throw. Spell resistance does apply.

Intimidating Presence (Su) As a standard action the sorceror can make an Intimidate check to project an intimidating presence. This presence lasts for a number of rounds equal to his Charisma bonus (minimum 1). Any opponent attempting to strike or otherwise directly attack the warded creature, even with a targeted spell, must attempt  a check (1d20 + character level or Hit Dice + target’s Wisdom bonus [if any] + target’s modifiers on saves against fear). The DC is the sorceror's Intimidation check. If the check succeeds, the opponent can attack normally and is unaffected by the intimidating presence. If the check fails, the opponent can’t follow through with the attack, that part of its action is lost, and it can’t directly attack the sorceror for the duration of the effect. Those not attempting to attack the subject remain unaffected. This ability does not prevent the sorceror from being attacked or affected by area or effect spells. The sorceror cannot attack without breaking the spell but may use nonattack spells or otherwise act.

Demoralizing Presence (Su) As a move action a sorceror can manifest a Demoralizing Presence. All enemies within a radius of 10' X 1/2 sorceror level must make a Will save (DC 10 + 1/2 sorceror level + Cha modifier) or become shaken for a number of rounds equal to twice the sorceror's Charisma modifier. A succesful save negates the effect. A potentially affected creature that succeeds on the Will save remains immune to the sorceror's Demoralizing Presence for 24 hours. This fear effect is cumulative with other fear effects but does not stack with itself.

Frightful Presence (Su) Requires Demoralizing Presence. As a standard action a sorceror can manifest a Frightful Presence. All enemies within a radius of 10' X 1/2 sorceror level must make a Will save (DC 10 + 1/2 sorceror level + Cha modifier) or become frightened for a number of rounds equal to twice the sorceror's Charisma modifier. On a succesful save the target is shaken for 1 round. A creature that succeeds on the Will save remains immune to the sorceror's Frightful Presence for 24 hours. This fear effect is cumulative with other fear effects but does not stack with itself.

Terrifying Presence (Su) Requires Demoralizing Presence and Frightful Presence. As a full round action a sorceror can manifest a Terrifying Presence. All enemies within a radius of 10' X 1/2 sorceror level must make a Will save (DC 10 + 1/2 sorceror level + Cha modifier) or become panicked for a number of rounds equal to twice the sorceror's Charisma modifier. On a succesful save the target is shaken for 1 round. A creature that succeeds on the Will save remains immune to the sorceror's Terrifying Presence for 24 hours. This fear effect is cumulative with other fear effects but does not stack with itself.

Bonus Feat A sorceror may choose a bonus feat from the following list instead of a sorcery power. The sorceror must still meet all the prerequisites of the feat

-Celestial, Fiendish, or Dragon  Heritage feats
-Bloodline feats from Dragon #311, #325, and #335 (the sorceror does not need to meet the "able  to summon a familiar" requirement)
-Metamagic or Item Creation feats
-Spell Focus/Greater Spell Focus
-Spell Penetration/Greater Spell Penetration
-Arcane Mastery
-Obtain Familiar

Supreme Willpower (Su) The sorceror's powerful personality combined with his innate magical nature allows him to overcome physical challenges with ease. The sorceror may use his Charisma bonus instead of his Constitution, Dexterity, or Strength bonus when performing physical actions like a Strength check to open a door. This ability also applies to any skill checks using skills based on Strength, Dexterity, or Constitution. The sorceror may also use his Charisma bonus instead of his Strength bonus on opposed grapple checks.

Ultimate Willpower (Su) Requires Supreme Willpower. The sorceror may use his Charisma bonus instead of his Constitution, Dexterity, or Wisdom bonus when making Fortitude, Reflex, or Will saves. Additionally, the sorceror gains a bonus to all three saves equal to 1/4 his sorceror level (minimum 1).

Looks darn fine, except one thing: in the Spells section, it should have the following note:

If a spell is available on more than one list (such as animate dead, which is a 3rd level cleric spell and a 4th level wizard spell), it can be taken at the earliest level that it is available (so it is a 3rd level spell for sorcerers).

Fixed.

So...now what? Should we try to make a cool alt.bard? I don't think I have the strength for that.

Quote from: Berger KingFixed.

So...now what? Should we try to make a cool alt.bard? I don't think I have the strength for that.

:heh:

I'd need a hook for that.  They're just kind of... meh.  The only time I've ever really liked bards is the 2e bard handbook -- and then it wasn't the standard bard.  I played a kick-ass half-draw jongleur (acrobat) that specialized in necromancy spells and would talk to giant spiders like they were intelligent beings.  :heh:  I loved Tsabrak.

I don't know if it's a viable project or not, but virtually all the base classes need some spiffing up at higher levels.  Sure, the spellcasters get their nifty high-level spells, but the fun level goes down for the the other classes -- unless you take a prestige class.

I like the general idea of high-level rogues, with the ability to get nifty keen powers.  Unfortunately, they don't get many of them, and they can much more efficiently get the same or better from prestige classes, usually without sacrificing anything else they'd want to get.  Like improved evasion -- the WORST way to get it is as a high-level rogue.  Hell, there are prestige classes where you can get that at 6th or 7th character level.

Really, what I'd like is a way to replace prestige classes with a caffeteria selection of leet abilities.  It'd be a fair amount of work to do, though.  :)