I changed the Intimidating Presence to act more like the Sanctuary spell.

Quote from: Berger KingI changed the Intimidating Presence to act more like the Sanctuary spell.

Looks good to me.  Cool.  

What do you think of this?

Demoralizing Presence (Su) As a move action a sorceror can manifest a Demoralizing Presence. All enemies within a radius of 10' X 1/2 sorceror level must make a Will save (DC 10 + 1/2 sorceror level + Cha modifier) or become shaken for a number of rounds equal to twice the sorceror's Charisma modifier. A succesful save negates the effect. A potentially affected creature that succeeds on the Will save remains immune to the sorceror's Demoralizing Presence for 24 hours. This fear effect is cumulative with other fear effects but does not stack with itself.


Frightful Presence (Su) Requires Demoralizing Presence. As a standard action a sorceror can manifest a Frightful Presence. All enemies within a radius of 10' X 1/2 sorceror level must make a Will save (DC 10 + 1/2 sorceror level + Cha modifier) or become frightened for a number of rounds equal to twice the sorceror's Charisma modifier. On a succesful save the target is shaken for 1 round. A creature that succeeds on the Will save remains immune to the sorceror's Frightful Presence for 24 hours. This fear effect is cumulative with other fear effects but does not stack with itself.



Terrifying Presence (Su) Requires Demoralizing Presence and Frightful Presence. As a full round action a sorceror can manifest a Terrifying Presence. All enemies within a radius of 10' X 1/2 sorceror level must make a Will save (DC 10 + 1/2 sorceror level + Cha modifier) or become panicked for a number of rounds equal to twice the sorceror's Charisma modifier. On a succesful save the target is shaken for 1 round. A creature that succeeds on the Will save remains immune to the sorceror's Terrifying Presence for 24 hours. This fear effect is cumulative with other fear effects but does not stack with itself.

How about this as one of the choices?

Bonus Feat A sorceror may choose a bonus feat from the following list instead of a sorcery power. The sorceror must still meet all the prerequisites of the feat

-Celestial, Fiendish, or Dragon  Heritage feats
-Bloodline feats from Dragon #311, #325, and #335 (the sorceror does not need to meet the "able to summon a familiar" requirement)
-Metamagic or Item Creation feats
-Spell Focus/Greater Spell Focus
-Spell Penetration/Greater Spell Penetration
-Arcane Mastery
-Obtain Familiar

All of the above looks fine to me.    I like how you did the fear effects -- good, but it doesn't seem overwhelmingly powerful.

Something a la Magister powers (which are at 14th and 22nd level !!!??)

Supreme Willpower (Su) The sorceror's powerful personality combined with his innate magical nature allows him to overcome physical challenges with ease. The sorceror may use his Charisma bonus instead of his Constitution, Dexterity, or Strength bonus when performing physical actions like a Strength check to open a door. This ability also applies to any skill checks using skills based on Strength, Dexterity, or Constitution. The sorceror may also use his Charisma bonus instead of his Strength bonus on opposed grapple checks.


Ultimate Willpower (Su) Requires Supreme Willpower. The sorceror may use his Charisma bonus instead of his Constitution, Dexterity, or Wisdom bonus when making Fortitude, Reflex, or Will saves.

What do you think? Hmmm. Ultimate Willpower is actually worse than a Paladin's Divine Grace. I think it might be too powerful to make the two powers a single choice (especially if gained at 2nd level), but maybe it can be jazzed up a little. Ideas?

I guess one thing that bothers me about the last two is that they give you all their benefits right away and don't invite you to take more levels of sorceror. How about this change:

REAL ULTIMATE WILLPOWER!!!!(Su) Requires Supreme Willpower. The sorceror may use his Charisma bonus instead of his Constitution, Dexterity, or Wisdom bonus when making Fortitude, Reflex, or Will saves. Additionally, the sorceror gains a bonus to all three saves equal to 1/4 his sorceror level (minimum 1).

I don't know what to do with the skill related feat. I guess I just want to avoid somebody cherry picking two levels of sorceror for it. I suppose most people don't cherry pick two levels, and it would really only strongly benefit a Charisma based talky rogue. What do you think?

Well, I don't know.  They're strong abilities, yes, but they're based on everybody's favourite dump stat.  Nor would I really be unhappy to see an ability that benefits Cha-based rogues.

By the time the magister gets those abilities, they are such minor powers that they're only just worth noting.  But even at 2nd level, is supreme willpower really going to give sorcerers that much of a boost?  Especially since they still can't make Dex and Con dump stats -- they need the AC and the hp.

And since REAL ULTIMATE WILLPOWER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1one can only be taken at 6th level or higher, I'm really not worried about it being cherry picked.  If you take 6 levels of something, you're not cherry picking any more.  

NKL Sorceror

Alignment: Any.

Hit Die: d4.

Class Skills
The sorcerer’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Bluff (Cha), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (arcana) (Int), Profession (Wis),Spellcraft (Int), and Use Magic Device (Cha).

Skill Points at 1st Level: (4 + Int modifier) x 4.

Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 4 + Int modifier.

BAB: As PHB Sorceror
Saves: As PHB Sorceror

Special:
  1-Eschew Materials, Innate Spellshaping, Power from Within
  2-Sorcery
  3-
  4-
  5-
  6-Sorcery
  7-
  8-
  9-
10-Sorcery
11-
12-
13-
14-Sorcery
15-
16-
17-
18-Sorcery
19-
20-

Class Features

Weapon and Armor Proficiency

As PHB Sorceror

Spells

As PHB Sorceror, except the sorceror can select spells from the Sorceror/Wizard, Cleric, or Druid spell lists. All Sorceror spells are cast as Arcane spells. If a spell is available on more than one list (such as animate dead, which is a 3rd level cleric spell and a 4th level wizard spell), it can be taken at the earliest level that it is available (so it is a 3rd level spell for sorcerers).

Eschew Materials

At 1st level, a sorceror gains Eschew Materials as a bonus feat.

Innate Spellshaping (Su)

The sorceror's intimate connection to magic allows him to alter his spells simply through innate talent. As a full round action a sorceror may cast a spell as if altered by a single metamagic feat. The level of the spell is increasesed as described in the feat used. Only sorceror spells may be altered by this ability. These virtual feats can be used to meet the requirements for other feats or classes.

The virtual metamagic feats granted by this power (and their spell level adjustments) are:

Cooperative Spell (+0)
Energy Substitution [any] (+0)
Enlarge Spell (+1)
Extend Spell (+1)
Sculpt Spell (+1)
Silent Spell (+1)
Still Spell (+1)
Transdimensional Spell (+1)
Empower Spell (+2)
Explosive Spell (+2)
Reach Spell (+2)
Split Ray (+2)
Chain Spell (+3)
Delay Spell (+3)
Maximize Spell (+3)
Repeat Spell (+3)
Widen Spell (+3)
Twin Spell (+4)
Persistent Spell (+6)
Fortify Spell (Variable)
Heighten Spell (Variable)

The sorceror may also use metamagic feats selected as feats, bonus feats, or gained from other classes to further alter a spell. The spell level increases as described in the feat, and the casting time remains one full round. Example: A sorceror could cast magic missile using Innate Spellshaping to replicate the Still Spell feat, while also using his feat Silent Spell to further alter it. The spell would be 3rd level and require one full round to cast.

Power from Within (Ex)

Unlike the wizard, who must spend his life studying magic, a sorceror's arcane power is an inborn talent. A sorceror may use his Charisma bonus in place of his Constitution bonus when making a Concentration check involving spellcasting. Additionally, the sorceror's natural understanding of magic allows him to use his Charisma bonus instead of his Intelligence bonus when making a Spellcraft check.

Because their power comes from within, sorcerors are unable to use spell completion or spell trigger activated items like wizards or clerics. However, they may still utilize the Use Magic Device skill to attempt to activate these items.

Sorcery

At 2nd level, and again at 4th, 10th, 14th, and 18th level the sorcer may choose one power of sorcery from the following list:

Sorcerous Bloodline
The sorceror gains the benefits of an Intermediate Bloodline as described in the alternate race rules. The sorceror does not have to take Bloodline levels at 6th and 12th level as described in the rules. However, the sorceror only gains the benefits listed when he has reached that level in the sorceror class, rather than his overall character level. If this ability is chosen after 2nd level the sorceror still gains all the benefits up to his current level.

Reserves of Power (Su)
Through meditation and arcane ritual a sorceror can invest the power of any spell that he knows within himself. The base price of an invested spell is its spell level × its caster level × 25 gp. To invest a spell, you must spend 1/25 of this base price in XP and use up raw materials in the rituals costing one-half of this base price. Investing the spell takes one day of meditation for each 1,000 gp in its base price. Invested spells are activated in the same way as spell completion items.

Any invested spell with a costly material component or an XP cost also carries a commensurate cost. In addition to the costs derived from the base price, you must expend the material component or pay the XP when investing the spell.

Unlike scrolls or other items, invested spells cannot be stolen or destroyed as they have no physical form. An invested spell may be transferred to or from another sorceror. This process requires physical contact and one full round of concentration per level of the invested spell. An unwilling target must succeed at an opposed Charsima check to stop the process. Invested spells fade away completely one hour after the death of a sorceror. Transferred spells may be used by a sorceror even if he does not know that spell.

Overbearing Power (Su) As a swift action the sorceror can expend a spell slot to add a bonus to the DC of his next spell (or 1 round, whichever comes first). The bonus is equal to the level of the expended spell slot. Only sorceror spell slots can be expended, and only sorceror spells can be improved by this ability.

Irresistible Power (Su) As a swift action the sorceror can expend a spell slot to add a bonus to his next caster level check to overcome SR (or 1 round, whichever comes first). The bonus is equal to the level of the expended spell slot. Only sorceror spell slots can be expended, and only sorceror spells can be improved by this ability.

Arcane Grace (Su) As an immediate action the sorceror can expend a spell slot to add a bonus to his saving throw versus a spell or spell-like ability. The bonus is equal to the level of the expended spell slot. Only sorceror spell slots can be expended to gain the benefits of this ability.

Intimidating Command (Su) As a standard action the sorceror can make an Intimidate check against one target within range (30 feet). The target must make an opposed roll  (1d20 + character level or Hit Dice + target’s Wisdom bonus [if any] + target’s modifiers on saves against fear) or be subject to the effect of a Command spell with no saving throw. Spell resistance does apply.

Intimidating Presence (Su) As a standard action the sorceror can make an Intimidate check to project an intimidating presence. This presence lasts for a number of rounds equal to his Charisma bonus (minimum 1). Any opponent attempting to strike or otherwise directly attack the warded creature, even with a targeted spell, must attempt  a check (1d20 + character level or Hit Dice + target’s Wisdom bonus [if any] + target’s modifiers on saves against fear). The DC is the sorceror's Intimidation check. If the check succeeds, the opponent can attack normally and is unaffected by the intimidating presence. If the check fails, the opponent can’t follow through with the attack, that part of its action is lost, and it can’t directly attack the sorceror for the duration of the effect. Those not attempting to attack the subject remain unaffected. This ability does not prevent the sorceror from being attacked or affected by area or effect spells. The sorceror cannot attack without breaking the spell but may use nonattack spells or otherwise act.

Demoralizing Presence (Su) As a move action a sorceror can manifest a Demoralizing Presence. All enemies within a radius of 10' X 1/2 sorceror level must make a Will save (DC 10 + 1/2 sorceror level + Cha modifier) or become shaken for a number of rounds equal to twice the sorceror's Charisma modifier. A succesful save negates the effect. A potentially affected creature that succeeds on the Will save remains immune to the sorceror's Demoralizing Presence for 24 hours. This fear effect is cumulative with other fear effects but does not stack with itself.

Frightful Presence (Su) Requires Demoralizing Presence. As a standard action a sorceror can manifest a Frightful Presence. All enemies within a radius of 10' X 1/2 sorceror level must make a Will save (DC 10 + 1/2 sorceror level + Cha modifier) or become frightened for a number of rounds equal to twice the sorceror's Charisma modifier. On a succesful save the target is shaken for 1 round. A creature that succeeds on the Will save remains immune to the sorceror's Frightful Presence for 24 hours. This fear effect is cumulative with other fear effects but does not stack with itself.

Terrifying Presence (Su) Requires Demoralizing Presence and Frightful Presence. As a full round action a sorceror can manifest a Terrifying Presence. All enemies within a radius of 10' X 1/2 sorceror level must make a Will save (DC 10 + 1/2 sorceror level + Cha modifier) or become panicked for a number of rounds equal to twice the sorceror's Charisma modifier. On a succesful save the target is shaken for 1 round. A creature that succeeds on the Will save remains immune to the sorceror's Terrifying Presence for 24 hours. This fear effect is cumulative with other fear effects but does not stack with itself.

Bonus Feat A sorceror may choose a bonus feat from the following list instead of a sorcery power. The sorceror must still meet all the prerequisites of the feat

-Celestial, Fiendish, or Dragon  Heritage feats
-Bloodline feats from Dragon #311, #325, and #335 (the sorceror does not need to meet the "able  to summon a familiar" requirement)
-Metamagic or Item Creation feats
-Spell Focus/Greater Spell Focus
-Spell Penetration/Greater Spell Penetration
-Arcane Mastery
-Obtain Familiar

Supreme Willpower (Su) The sorceror's powerful personality combined with his innate magical nature allows him to overcome physical challenges with ease. The sorceror may use his Charisma bonus instead of his Constitution, Dexterity, or Strength bonus when performing physical actions like a Strength check to open a door. This ability also applies to any skill checks using skills based on Strength, Dexterity, or Constitution. The sorceror may also use his Charisma bonus instead of his Strength bonus on opposed grapple checks.

Ultimate Willpower (Su) Requires Supreme Willpower. The sorceror may use his Charisma bonus instead of his Constitution, Dexterity, or Wisdom bonus when making Fortitude, Reflex, or Will saves. Additionally, the sorceror gains a bonus to all three saves equal to 1/4 his sorceror level (minimum 1).

Looks darn fine, except one thing: in the Spells section, it should have the following note:

If a spell is available on more than one list (such as animate dead, which is a 3rd level cleric spell and a 4th level wizard spell), it can be taken at the earliest level that it is available (so it is a 3rd level spell for sorcerers).

Fixed.

So...now what? Should we try to make a cool alt.bard? I don't think I have the strength for that.

Quote from: Berger KingFixed.

So...now what? Should we try to make a cool alt.bard? I don't think I have the strength for that.

:heh:

I'd need a hook for that.  They're just kind of... meh.  The only time I've ever really liked bards is the 2e bard handbook -- and then it wasn't the standard bard.  I played a kick-ass half-draw jongleur (acrobat) that specialized in necromancy spells and would talk to giant spiders like they were intelligent beings.  :heh:  I loved Tsabrak.

I don't know if it's a viable project or not, but virtually all the base classes need some spiffing up at higher levels.  Sure, the spellcasters get their nifty high-level spells, but the fun level goes down for the the other classes -- unless you take a prestige class.

I like the general idea of high-level rogues, with the ability to get nifty keen powers.  Unfortunately, they don't get many of them, and they can much more efficiently get the same or better from prestige classes, usually without sacrificing anything else they'd want to get.  Like improved evasion -- the WORST way to get it is as a high-level rogue.  Hell, there are prestige classes where you can get that at 6th or 7th character level.

Really, what I'd like is a way to replace prestige classes with a caffeteria selection of leet abilities.  It'd be a fair amount of work to do, though.