Cyberzombie, if you want to have a set of powers to pick from at certain levels, which levels would you use?

Quote from: Berger KingCyberzombie, if you want to have a set of powers to pick from at certain levels, which levels would you use?

Currently, I'm kind of enamored with the bloodlines idea.  If I run with that, I'd go ahead and give the sorcerer a normal spell progression, where they get new spell levels on every odd level.

Ah, fuck it.  Consider that done, in any case.  

The bloodlines would give powers on every even level.  If we go with a choice of powers, I think I'd want the same.  If they were really cool powers, and it seemed like every other level was too powerful, I'd go with every 4th level.

I'm impatient and bored at work. Is this a pretty good summary of what you're thinking CZ?



NKL Sorceror

Alignment: Any.

Hit Die: d4.

Class Skills
The sorcerer’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Bluff (Cha), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (arcana) (Int), Profession (Wis),  Spellcraft (Int), and Use Magic Device (Cha).

Skill Points at 1st Level: (4 + Int modifier) x 4.

Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 4 + Int modifier.

BAB: As PHB Sorceror
Saves: As PHB Sorceror
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: As PHB Sorceror
Spells Known and Spells/Day: As PHB Sorceror, except Sorceror can select spells from Sorceror/Wizard, Cleric, or Druid spell lists. When a spell is on multiple lists, the Sorceror gains the spell at the lowest listed level. All Sorceror spells are cast as Arcane spells.

Special:
1-Eschew Materials, Innate Metamagic, Sorcerous Bloodline, No Scroll/Wand Use,
2-Bloodline Ability, Sorceror Ability
3-
4-Bloodline Ability, Sorceror Ability
5-
6-Bloodline Ability, Sorceror Ability
7-
8-Bloodline Ability, Sorceror Ability
9-
10-Bloodline Ability, Sorceror Ability
11-
12-Bloodline Ability, Sorceror Ability
13-
14-Bloodline Ability, Sorceror Ability
15-
16-Bloodline Ability, Sorceror Ability
17-
18-Bloodline Ability, Sorceror Ability
19-
20-Bloodline Ability, Sorceror Ability

Edit-Added skills

Wow.  I'm busy at work, which is why I haven't done such an update yet, but that's more or less what I had in mind.  

I was going to add more Cha skills -- Intimidate is a must-have, I think.  Handle Animal is right out -- mages of lore often scared the bejesus out of critters.  Diplomacy would be perfect for a Cha monster, but I'm not sure whether it fits the class or not.

What do you think of having some sort of intimidation ability at 1st level?

Do you think it would be *too* much to have a bloodline and other abilities, too?

Quote from: CyberzombieWow.  I'm busy at work, which is why I haven't done such an update yet, but that's more or less what I had in mind.  

I was going to add more Cha skills -- Intimidate is a must-have, I think.  Handle Animal is right out -- mages of lore often scared the bejesus out of critters.  Diplomacy would be perfect for a Cha monster, but I'm not sure whether it fits the class or not.

What do you think of having some sort of intimidation ability at 1st level?

Do you think it would be *too* much to have a bloodline and other abilities, too?

Yeah. It's been a slow week for me.

I think if the other abilities were spread farther apart it might be better. Plus, then we don't have to think of ten cool abilities.

I'll edit in Intimidate. I don't really like Diplomacy either, as it seems more based on the fact that a Sorc has charisma than on theme or style. Leave the nice-nice to the Paladins and the Bards.

Quote from: CyberzombieWhat do you think of having some sort of intimidation ability at 1st level?

How about something that replicates the effects of a Command spell, but tied to Intimidate? Commanding Presence or Voice of Power or something. Possibly make the "save" an opposed check using (1d20 + character level or Hit Dice + target’s Wisdom bonus [if any] + target’s modifiers on saves against fear) which is the check for demoralizing in combat.

QuoteYou give the subject a single command, which it obeys to the best of its ability at its earliest opportunity. You may select from the following options.

Approach
On its turn, the subject moves toward you as quickly and directly as possible for 1 round. The creature may do nothing but move during its turn, and it provokes attacks of opportunity for this movement as normal.

Drop
On its turn, the subject drops whatever it is holding. It can’t pick up any dropped item until its next turn.

Fall
On its turn, the subject falls to the ground and remains prone for 1 round. It may act normally while prone but takes any appropriate penalties.

Flee
On its turn, the subject moves away from you as quickly as possible for 1 round. It may do nothing but move during its turn, and it provokes attacks of opportunity for this movement as normal.

Halt
The subject stands in place for 1 round. It may not take any actions but is not considered helpless.

If the subject can’t carry out your command on its next turn, the spell automatically fails.

Or maybe Detect Magic at will because the Sorc is so in tune with magical power? That's not really tied to Intimidate, though.

Another idea, which might be replicated by feats/abilities I've seen somewhere:

As a standard action the Sorc makes an Intimidate check to project an aura of menace until the beginning of his next turn. Any enemy must make a check (1d20 + character level or Hit Dice + target’s Wisdom bonus [if any] + target’s modifiers on saves against fear) in order to target the sorceror with spells or attacks (including Attacks of Opportunity). This ability has no effect on spells or attacks that affect an area that the sorceror is included in.

This would allow the sorceror to stride through his foes, or cover his ass...I mean take time to assess the situation. Of course this opens up more abuse from multiclass, as a rogue/sorc could just skip tumble and intimidate his way into flanking position, though he wouldn't be able to do any sneak attacking 'til his next turn...

Edit-added bit about AoO

I've been thinking. Cyberzombie, you say you want this sorceror to be customizable like a sorceror and able to replicate magic types from myth and legend. Perhaps we're leaning too heavily on the D&D "sorceror's power comes from dragon/celestial/etc. blood"  gimmick. I think we should make the bloodline one of the selectable powers, so people can play a non-bloodline style sorceror if they want.

I think the extra skill points, spells from any list, Eschew Materials, and free Energy Substitution [any] is a pretty decent first level. Then give choosable abilities at level2,6,10,14, and 18.

I also think we should list the virtual metamagic feats the Sorc gets just to be explicit and clear. I'll be bored at work again today, so I can try to summarize the feats and powers.

Quote from: Berger KingI've been thinking. Cyberzombie, you say you want this sorceror to be customizable like a sorceror and able to replicate magic types from myth and legend. Perhaps we're leaning too heavily on the D&D "sorceror's power comes from dragon/celestial/etc. blood"  gimmick. I think we should make the bloodline one of the selectable powers, so people can play a non-bloodline style sorceror if they want.

Good point, really.  It's overly D&D-centric, as you say.  I just got overexcited over the prospect of making the bloodlines more useful.  

Quote from: Berger KingI think the extra skill points, spells from any list, Eschew Materials, and free Energy Substitution [any] is a pretty decent first level. Then give choosable abilities at level2,6,10,14, and 18.

Again, correct.  And if they have Intimidate as a class skill, that gives them some fear abilities, even if they're minor.  They'll be decent, since it's a Cha skill.

Quote from: Berger KingI also think we should list the virtual metamagic feats the Sorc gets just to be explicit and clear. I'll be bored at work again today, so I can try to summarize the feats and powers.

Yeah, that's why I was talking about calling it "spellshaping" in one of my posts -- make it clear exactly what they can do, and make it obvious that they aren't getting free metamagic to use for all their classes.

Thanks for your interest in this!  I love working on this kind of shit with other people.  :win:

NKL Sorceror

Alignment: Any.

Hit Die: d4.

Class Skills
The sorcerer’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Bluff (Cha), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (arcana) (Int), Profession (Wis),Spellcraft (Int), and Use Magic Device (Cha).

Skill Points at 1st Level: (4 + Int modifier) x 4.

Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 4 + Int modifier.

BAB: As PHB Sorceror
Saves: As PHB Sorceror

Special:
  1-Eschew Materials, Innate Spellshaping, Power from Within
  2-Sorcery
  3-
  4-
  5-
  6-Sorcery
  7-
  8-
  9-
10-Sorcery
11-
12-
13-
14-Sorcery
15-
16-
17-
18-Sorcery
19-
20-

Class Features

Weapon and Armor Proficiency

As PHB Sorceror

Spells

As PHB Sorceror, except the sorceror can select spells from the Sorceror/Wizard, Cleric, or Druid spell lists. All Sorceror spells are cast as Arcane spells.

Eschew Materials

At 1st level, a sorceror gains Eschew Materials as a bonus feat.

Innate Spellshaping (Su)

The sorceror's intimate connection to magic allows him to alter his spells simply through innate talent. As a full round action a sorceror may cast a spell as if altered by a single metamagic feat. The level of the spell is increasesed as described in the feat used. Only sorceror spells may be altered by this ability. These virtual feats can be used to meet the requirements for other feats or classes.

The virtual metamagic feats granted by this power (and their spell level adjustments) are:

Cooperative Spell (+0)
Energy Substitution [any] (+0)
Enlarge Spell (+1)
Extend Spell (+1)
Sculpt Spell (+1)
Silent Spell (+1)
Still Spell (+1)
Transdimensional Spell (+1)
Empower Spell (+2)
Explosive Spell (+2)
Reach Spell (+2)
Split Ray (+2)
Chain Spell (+3)
Delay Spell (+3)
Maximize Spell (+3)
Repeat Spell (+3)
Widen Spell (+3)
Twin Spell (+4)
Persistent Spell (+6)
Fortify Spell (Variable)
Heighten Spell (Variable)

The sorceror may also use metamagic feats selected as feats, bonus feats, or gained from other classes to further alter a spell. The spell level increases as described in the feat, and the casting time remains one full round. Example: A sorceror could cast magic missile using Innate Spellshaping to replicate the Still Spell feat, while also using his feat Silent Spell to further alter it. The spell would be 3rd level and require one full round to cast.

Power from Within (Ex)

Unlike the wizard, who must spend his life studying magic, a sorceror's arcane power is an inborn talent. A sorceror may use his Charisma bonus in place of his Constitution bonus when making a Concentration check involving spellcasting. Additionally, the sorceror's natural understanding of magic allows him to use his Charisma bonus instead of his Intelligence bonus when making a Spellcraft check.

Because their power comes from within, sorcerors are unable to use spell completion or spell trigger activated items like wizards or clerics. However, they may still utilize the Use Magic Device skill to attempt to activate these items.

Sorcery

At 2nd level, and again at 4th, 10th, 14th, and 18th level the sorcer may choose one power of sorcery from the following list:

Sorcerous Bloodline
The sorceror gains the benefits of an Intermediate Bloodline as described in the alternate race rules. The sorceror does not have to take Bloodline levels at 6th and 12th level as described in the rules. However, the sorceror only gains the benefits listed when he has reached that level in the sorceror class, rather than his overall character level. If this ability is chosen after 2nd level the sorceror still gains all the benefits up to his current level.



Reserves of Power (Su)
Through meditation and arcane ritual a sorceror can invest the power of any spell that he knows within himself. The base price of an invested spell is its spell level × its caster level × 25 gp. To invest a spell, you must spend 1/25 of this base price in XP and use up raw materials in the rituals costing one-half of this base price. Investing the spell takes one day of meditation for each 1,000 gp in its base price. Invested spells are activated in the same way as spell completion items.

Any invested spell with a costly material component or an XP cost also carries a commensurate cost. In addition to the costs derived from the base price, you must expend the material component or pay the XP when investing the spell.

Unlike scrolls or other items, invested spells cannot be stolen or destroyed as they have no physical form. An invested spell may be transferred to or from another sorceror. This process requires physical contact and one full round of concentration per level of the invested spell. An unwilling target must succeed at an opposed Charsima check to stop the process. Invested spells fade away completely one hour after the death of a sorceror. Transferred spells may be used by a sorceror even if he does not know that spell.



Overbearing Power (Su) As a swift action the sorceror can expend a spell slot to add a bonus to the DC of his next spell (or 1 round, whichever comes first). The bonus is equal to the level of the expended spell slot. Only sorceror spell slots can be expended, and only sorceror spells can be improved by this ability.


Irresistible Power (Su) As a swift action the sorceror can expend a spell slot to add a bonus to his next caster level check to overcome SR (or 1 round, whichever comes first). The bonus is equal to the level of the expended spell slot. Only sorceror spell slots can be expended, and only sorceror spells can be improved by this ability.


Arcane Grace (Su) As an immediate action the sorceror can expend a spell slot to add a bonus to his saving throw versus a spell or spell-like ability. The bonus is equal to the level of the expended spell slot. Only sorceror spell slots can be expended to gain the benefits of this ability.


Intimidating Command (Su) As a standard action the sorceror can make an Intimidate check against one target within range (30 feet). The target must make an opposed roll  (1d20 + character level or Hit Dice + target’s Wisdom bonus [if any] + target’s modifiers on saves against fear) or be subject to the effect of a Command spell with no saving throw. Spell resistance does apply.


Intimidating Presence (Su) As a standard action the sorceror can make an Intimidate check to project an intimidating presence. This presence lasts for a number of rounds equal to his Charisma bonus (minimum 1). Any opponent attempting to strike or otherwise directly attack the warded creature, even with a targeted spell, must attempt  a check (1d20 + character level or Hit Dice + target’s Wisdom bonus [if any] + target’s modifiers on saves against fear). The DC is the sorceror's Intimidation check. If the check succeeds, the opponent can attack normally and is unaffected by the intimidating presence. If the check fails, the opponent can’t follow through with the attack, that part of its action is lost, and it can’t directly attack the sorceror for the duration of the effect. Those not attempting to attack the subject remain unaffected. This ability does not prevent the sorceror from being attacked or affected by area or effect spells. The sorceror cannot attack without breaking the spell but may use nonattack spells or otherwise act.

Demoralizing Presence (Su) Makes target/targets shaken. Unsure of mechanics

Frightful Presence (Su) Makes targets frightened. Requires Demoralizing Presence ability. Unsure of mechanics

Terrifying Presence (Su) Makes targets panicked. Requires Demoralizing Presence and Frightful Presence abilities. Unsure of mechanics.

-Edit 1)Changed Intimidating Presence to work like Sanctuary

The class looks great.  :win:  And a lot more interesting than the base sorcerer.

On the powers -- one I'd like to see is the magister-stylez powers to use Cha for physical abilities.  I think those powers could just be lifted directly, changing "Int" to "Cha".

I'm not sure whether sorcerous bloodline is too powerful in comparison to the other abilities or not.  The intermediate bloodlines really aren't that potent, so I'm leaning towards it not being too powerful, but I'm still not 100% sure.

Overbearing Power and Irresistable Power -- I was going to say that they sounded weak, but then I noticed that they're swift actions.  If you can do that *and* use spellshaping, it's far from weak.

Intimidating Presence -- it's similar to sanctuary, but doesn't require a spell slot to use and probably has a better saving throw.  I'm not sure about the duration, though.  That seems awfully short for something you're giving up your action for.

The fear abilities -- I'm not sure of the mechanics, either.  When fear effects come up in my games, the players usually save, so it doesn't come up much.  

Quote from: CyberzombieOn the powers -- one I'd like to see is the magister-stylez powers to use Cha for physical abilities.  I think those powers could just be lifted directly, changing "Int" to "Cha".

Cool. Should it replace all physical checks or just Str? And just ability checks, right? Not skills?

Quote from: CyberzombieI'm not sure whether sorcerous bloodline is too powerful in comparison to the other abilities or not.  The intermediate bloodlines really aren't that potent, so I'm leaning towards it not being too powerful, but I'm still not 100% sure."

The bonuses are nice, but I don't think they add directly to a sorceror's strengths. Any Cha bonuses are usually +1 and at the higher levels.

Quote from: CyberzombieOverbearing Power and Irresistable Power -- I was going to say that they sounded weak, but then I noticed that they're swift actions.  If you can do that *and* use spellshaping, it's far from weak.

Yup. You could burn through your spells pretty quickly, though.

Quote from: CyberzombieIntimidating Presence -- it's similar to sanctuary, but doesn't require a spell slot to use and probably has a better saving throw.  I'm not sure about the duration, though.  That seems awfully short for something you're giving up your action for.

I envisioned it as more of a protection/escape ability. If you are threatened or just don't want to dick around with some enemy you can use the power and either stand there laughing at them, or walk right past their impotent asses. If you make it last longer you'd have to add a sanctuary-style limitation and make attacking end the effect. Otherwise you'd be an unassailable spellcasting fortress.

Quote from: CyberzombieThe fear abilities -- I'm not sure of the mechanics, either.  When fear effects come up in my games, the players usually save, so it doesn't come up much.  

This is a hard one to balance. Make it too potent and all your challenges are running away, too weak and it's...uh...too weak.

Quote from: Berger KingCool. Should it replace all physical checks or just Str? And just ability checks, right? Not skills?

I can't remember the exact wording.  If I remember right, there is a base power and an improved version.  I'll have to look it up tonight when I get home.

Quote from: Berger KingThe bonuses are nice, but I don't think they add directly to a sorceror's strengths. Any Cha bonuses are usually +1 and at the higher levels.

That's true.  And the feats, while nice, are rarely really useful to a sorcerer.

Quote from: Berger KingYup. You could burn through your spells pretty quickly, though.

The spellshaping could burn through high-level slots quickly, too.  But I think it's appropriate to a lot of genre stories -- you've got a lot of power, but you can also use it up too quickly, leaving yourself open.  

Quote from: Berger KingI envisioned it as more of a protection/escape ability. If you are threatened or just don't want to dick around with some enemy you can use the power and either stand there laughing at them, or walk right past their impotent asses. If you make it last longer you'd have to add a sanctuary-style limitation and make attacking end the effect. Otherwise you'd be an unassailable spellcasting fortress.

True.  If it's for getaways, though, I think it might be good to have it last Cha bonus rounds and have the sanctuary limitations.  A decent sorcerer should be able to get away in 3 or 4 rounds; in one, quite possibly not.

Quote from: Berger KingThis is a hard one to balance. Make it too potent and all your challenges are running away, too weak and it's...uh...too weak.

Yeah.  And it's hard to determine what is a really good duration for it.

Time to look at the SRD and ponder.