Cyberzombie, you should post a summary of what you're thinking about at this point.

Another idea for a selectable sorceror power: (this may exist as a feat somewhere, I don't know)

Overbearing Power (Su):As a swift action the Sorc can expend a spell slot to add a bonus to the DC of one spell. The bonus is equal to the level of the expended spell slot. Only sorceror spell slots can be expended, and only sorceror spells can be improved by this ability.

A similar power could be developed to increase caster level checks to defeat SR.


Edit-changed free action to swift action, and limit to one spell

The logical extension would be:

Arcane Grace (Su): As an immediate action the Sorc can expend a spell slot to add a bonus to his saving throw versus a spell or spell-like ability. The bonus is equal to the level of the expended spell slot. Only sorceror spell slots can be expended to gain the benefits of this ability.


The PHB2 has a heritage feat called Celestial Sorceror Aura that creates an effect similar to demoralizing through intimidate. The sorc has to expend a spell slot and all the hostiles within 20 feet have to make a Will save. The effect lasts until the target hits the sorceror.

Quote from: Berger KingCyberzombie, you should post a summary of what you're thinking about at this point.

I'll try to get that done today; tomorrow at the latest.  I got distracted yesterday by Civ IV.  I think I played for 10 hours.  :heh:

Of course one of the selectable powers could be the ubiquitous (triple word score!) bonus feat. What feats would be appropriate?

-Celestial/Fiendish Heritage feats from PHB2 ,  Draconic Heritage feats from Complete Arcane, Bloodline feats from Dragon Mag
-Metamagic or Item Creation-should Sorcs be able to create items?
-Spell Focus/Greater Spell Focus?
-Spell Penetration/Greater Spell Penetration?
-Persuasive, other Cha related feats that seem appropriate?
-Arcane Mastery, Arcane Strike, Arcane Defense?

Other idea: grant the sorceror the benefits of a bloodline from UA without having to pay the level costs. Not sure how the balance would work for this, maybe only give benefits of a minor bloodline, or make it use up ability choices at higher levels (i.e. the sorc can select one of these powers at 2, 6, and 15th level-if he chooses minor than he loses the 2nd, intermediate 2 and 6, major 2, 6, and 15).

Edit-Could be exploited by multiclassing though. Hmmm. Perhaps he only gains the benefits of the bloodline level at that level of sorceror.

Quote from: Berger KingEdit-Could be exploited by multiclassing though. Hmmm. Perhaps he only gains the benefits of the bloodline level at that level of sorceror.

I could see using the bloodlines.  And it would make sense for the bloodline powers to only show up on levels where you're taking a level of sorcerer.  Hell, that might make more sense than the bloodlines do normally.  

I'd have to actually look at the bloodlines to tell you what level would be appropriate.  My gut feeling is intermediate, but I'd want to look at 'em.  Intermediate would also open up most of the bloodlines, since a number of cool ones don't have major bloodlines.

They're at http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/bloodlines.htm

Cool.  I gotta look at that site more.  

I'd have no problem giving sorcerers the Intermediate abilities, with no level cost or anything -- but only for sorcerer levels.  They would get some decent feats out of it, but they don't have much choice on what feat they get.  And intermediate would open up all the dragon types, too.

What do you think?

Quote from: CyberzombieI'd have to actually look at the bloodlines to tell you what level would be appropriate.  My gut feeling is intermediate, but I'd want to look at 'em.  Intermediate would also open up most of the bloodlines, since a number of cool ones don't have major bloodlines.

This would work because almost all of the bloodlines have intermediate, and most of the dragon bloodlines don't have major. I think having the bloodlines is flavorful given the default origin of sorcerous powers. I don't think any of the bloodlines would be super useful to a spellcaster. We have a vampire major bloodline rogue in our group( lvl 9) and he takes a big hurtin' because he lost 2 levels of hit points. He does like that cold resistance, though

Quote from: CyberzombieCool.  I gotta look at that site more.  

I'd have no problem giving sorcerers the Intermediate abilities, with no level cost or anything -- but only for sorcerer levels.  They would get some decent feats out of it, but they don't have much choice on what feat they get.  And intermediate would open up all the dragon types, too.

What do you think?

This also works if you make the multiple choice power selection available at Sorceror level 2.

Cool idea, CZ.

Now, I'm a big advocate of using what's already there, slightly modified...  Why make up something new, if we've already got something that works just fine.  With that in mind, here's a few ideas...

1) Metamagic.  Give the alt.sorcerer a bonus feat progression like that of a fighter (One at 1st level, and one at every even level thereafter).  Bonus feats may be selected from the Metamagic or Item Creation lists.  It's simple, straightforward, rewards continued levels in Sorcerer, penalizes taking a PrC, and provides a magical equivalent of the Fighter class.

2) Spell List.  I like the idea of being able to pick spells off of multiple spell lists, but you'll need to address the fact that some spells are different levels for different classes.  Also, you'll need to specify that all spells cast by the Sorcerer are considered Arcane spells.

3) Spell Trigger and Spell Activation Magic items.  For the purposes of
spell trigger and spell activation, a Sorcerer's known spells are considered to be his spell list...  In other words, he can use scrolls and wands, but only for those spells he already knows.  Also, I think giving Sorcerers the Use Magic Device skill as a class skill is a great idea.  It gives him a less reliable chance to use scrolls and wands that he aren't on his known spell list.

4) Familiars.  Can 'em.  If used poorly, they're just another bonus.  If used properly, they're nearly useless and a liability.

5) Intimidating Aura.  Just use Fear Aura (Su) or Frightful Presence (Ex) both are listed in the SRD and are commonly used as special abilities for monsters.  Of the two, I'd recommend Frightful Presence.

Quote from: Cyclotron3) Spell Trigger and Spell Activation Magic items.[/B]  For the purposes of
spell trigger and spell activation, a Sorcerer's known spells are considered to be his spell list...  In other words, he can use scrolls and wands, but only for those spells he already knows.  Also, I think giving Sorcerers the Use Magic Device skill as a class skill is a great idea.  It gives him a less reliable chance to use scrolls and wands that he aren't on his known spell list.

This would work. I like Chacal's ideas for making things a little more flavorful for the sorceror, but if we want to stay simple I like this

Quote from: Cyclotron 5) Intimidating Aura.  Just use Fear Aura (Su) or Frightful Presence (Ex) both are listed in the SRD and are commonly used as special abilities for monsters.  Of the two, I'd recommend Frightful Presence.

This is good. I'd tone down the listed duration of 5d6 rounds. I'd also list the specific actions a sorceror would have to take to initiate the Frightful Presence. I can't see him "charging" or "snarling" as described in SRD. At DC 10+1/2 Sorc level +Cha that could make for a nasty Will save. Perhaps also limit the effect to shaken (with no advance to frightened)

Quote from: Berger KingThis would work. I like Chacal's ideas for making things a little more flavorful for the sorceror, but if we want to stay simple I like this

I'm very fond of simple...  Or at least consistent...  rules.

Quote from: Berger KingThis is good. I'd tone down the listed duration of 5d6 rounds.

That's easy enough, and probably a good idea.

Quote from: Berger KingI'd also list the specific actions a sorceror would have to take to initiate the Frightful Presence. I can't see him "charging" or "snarling" as described in SRD.

Oh, no, of course not... Those are only suggestions from the Monster Manual, since the ability is geared mainly as a special ability for monsters.

For a Sorcerer, you could make it a move equivalent or standard action to activate, as the Sorcerer "manifests his unearthly powers" or some such... His eyes glow red, or his hair stands on end and crackles with electricity, or the lights dim and he seems to grow in stature as his voice reverberates ominously (COUGH! Gandalf COUGH!), or rainbow-colored disco lights shoot out of his ass, or whatever.

Quote from: Berger KingAt DC 10+1/2 Sorc level +Cha that could make for a nasty Will save.

It's not as bad as it seems...  That DC will be roughly equal to the DC
(maybe slightly higher, due to that 3rd-level spell delay in the Sorcerer's spellcasting progression) of the highest level spells the Sorcerer can cast.

Also, don't forget that PrC levels won't advance that DC.

Quote from: Berger KingPerhaps also limit the effect to shaken (with no advance to frightened)

That would probably be best... Of course you could always increase Shaken to Frightened via class ability (Improved Frightful Presence) at, say, 10th level, and then to Panicked at 20th (Greater Frightful Presence), as a bonus for staying with the class.

As a reference, the only two MM creatures I can find that have frightful presence are Dragons, and the Tarrasque...

Frightful Presence (Ex): A young adult or older dragon can unsettle foes with its mere presence. The ability takes effect automatically whenever the dragon attacks, charges, or flies overhead. Creatures within a radius of 30 feet x the dragon’s age category are subject to the effect if they have fewer HD than the dragon. A potentially affected creature that succeeds on a Will save (DC 10 + 1/2 dragon’s HD + dragon’s Cha modifier) remains immune to that dragon’s frightful presence for 24 hours. On a failure, creatures with 4 or less HD become panicked for 4d6 rounds and those with 5 or more HD become shaken for 4d6 rounds. Dragons ignore the frightful presence of other dragons.

Frightful Presence (Su): The tarrasque can inspire terror by charging or attacking. Affected creatures must succeed on a DC 36 Will save or become shaken, remaining in that condition as long as they remain with 60 feet of the tarrasque. The save DC is Charisma-based.

Quote from: Cyclotron 1) Metamagic.  Give the alt.sorcerer a bonus feat progression like that of a fighter (One at 1st level, and one at every even level thereafter).  Bonus feats may be selected from the Metamagic or Item Creation lists.  It's simple, straightforward, rewards continued levels in Sorcerer, penalizes taking a PrC, and provides a magical equivalent of the Fighter class.

Actually, I think I might use that idea for the *wizard*.  I like my metamagic idea better -- though I think I'll rename it "spellshaping" and make the differences from the feats clear -- but that sounds like a fine idea to make the wizard more flavourful.  It would also make it easier to make prestige classes that don't suck, since you'd actually *have* an ability to take away.  

Quote from: Cyclotron 2) Spell List.  I like the idea of being able to pick spells off of multiple spell lists, but you'll need to address the fact that some spells are different levels for different classes.  Also, you'll need to specify that all spells cast by the Sorcerer are considered Arcane spells.

Point two first -- "All sorcerer spells are considered Arcane spells."  There.  Done!  :heh:  As for the first part, I'd give them the spell at the lowest level it is available on the cleric, druid, or wizard list.  I think they can live without the handful of paladin spells not on those lists, and I'd intentionally not include the bard spells.

Quote from: Cyclotron3) Spell Trigger and Spell Activation Magic items.  For the purposes of
spell trigger and spell activation, a Sorcerer's known spells are considered to be his spell list...  In other words, he can use scrolls and wands, but only for those spells he already knows.  Also, I think giving Sorcerers the Use Magic Device skill as a class skill is a great idea.  It gives him a less reliable chance to use scrolls and wands that he aren't on his known spell list.

I'd just simplify it and not let them use scrolls or wands.  Not that that is going to be a big handicap -- with Use Magic Device as a class skill, they'll still be able to use them easily enough.  

Quote from: Cyclotron 4) Familiars.  Can 'em.  If used poorly, they're just another bonus.  If used properly, they're nearly useless and a liability.

Done!  

Quote from: Cyclotron 5) Intimidating Aura.  Just use Fear Aura (Su) or Frightful Presence (Ex) both are listed in the SRD and are commonly used as special abilities for monsters.  Of the two, I'd recommend Frightful Presence.

I'd have to look over which version to use, but that sounds like a great 1st level ability.  The spellshaping and the bloodline are great for higher levels, but the class still needs something at 1st level.  Since they're supposed to be scary loners, anyway, why not back it up with game stats?  

Quote from: CyberzombieActually, I think I might use that idea for the *wizard*.  I like my metamagic idea better -- though I think I'll rename it "spellshaping" and make the differences from the feats clear -- but that sounds like a fine idea to make the wizard more flavourful.  It would also make it easier to make prestige classes that don't suck, since you'd actually *have* an ability to take away.  

I think this is the core that makes it cool.  Extra bonus feats would entail planning out which metamagic works for you.  Being able to wing it is more in line with a the idea of a sorcerer to me.  They are already heavily limited by spell list, they need to be able to stretch out a bit in other ways.