Quote from: CyberzombieThat leaves open the question of what a sorcerer would get in exchange.  Perhaps the light armour/d6 HD/4 skill points/Cha skills package, along with the abilities mentioned in this thread, would make a decent class.  And a class further distinct from the wizard.

I think the skills and HD boost are good. I'm conflicted on the armor, though. My image of sorcerors just doesn't include armor. Plus that makes them more like bards, thereby attaching bardstink and making sorcerors lamer.

I'd have to actually look at those feats.  Since I never actually *use* metamagic, I'd have to go through and look.  I remember Delay Spell had such a prereq, and I don't see any reason why the sorcerer couldn't just have it.

As for energy substitution -- if you're getting all the metamagic, you're getting *all* the metamagic, including all versions of this.

Oh, just to be clear: all metamagic does not include the Sudden versions.  'Cause that would just be silly.  

Quote from: Berger KingI think the skills and HD boost are good. I'm conflicted on the armor, though. My image of sorcerors just doesn't include armor. Plus that makes them more like bards, thereby attaching bardstink and making sorcerors lamer.

Well, that brings up a whole 'nother issue of whether bards really have any purpose at all.  

Chain Spell, Sculpt Spell, Split Ray, Repeat Spell, Twin Spell, some others from CA.

I would like to see the Sorc get some minor powers that reflect internal power. I mean, you've got all this will, this charisma/force of personality, but all it does is make your spells harder to resist. Maybe something the equivalent of the paladin's divine grace.

The AE magister has some ability that allows them to replace physical checks (like a Str check to open a door) with intelligence, cus' like they use their brains and stuff. Maybe a sorceror should be able do something similar just by sheer force of will. Open Motherfucker! I command it!

Thanks.  I'll have to get out CArcane and AE tonight -- assuming I don't drop from exhaustion after shopping and cooking.  

I don't understand. Do you mean they won't have to pay the higher level slot cost?

Quote from: TrainzI don't understand. Do you mean they won't have to pay the higher level slot cost?

No, they have to pay the cost of the higher level slot -- that's why it isn't terribly useful at 1st level.  What they don't have to do is actually get the feats.  They have virtual feats for their sorcerer spells.

Interesting idea.
I'd be tempted to let these sorcerers convert slots a la AU, that is:
Rule 1: 3 slots of level n can be converted spontaneously into a  slot of level n+1
Rule 2: 1 slot of level n can be converted spontaneously into two  slots of level n-1

With the following constraints:
Constraint 1: Converted slots can't be converted again (You don't get 8 first level slots with a level 4 slot)
Constraint 2: You can't create a slot of higher level than the highest you can normally use.

I could even be persuaded of dropping the second constraint to let them use a little bit more of their metamagic. To simplify, maybe I'd also  remove the rule 2.


Chacal

Some thoughts from overnight.

1) Allow the Sorc to use his Cha bonus on Spellcraft as well as Concentration. He understands magic with an intuitive sense (which I suppose should be a Wis bonus, but...). I think Knowledge (Arcana) should stay Int, though.

2)In exchange for the familiar, I'd like to see the Sorc have something along the lines of an aura that...does something. I'm not sure. I was thinking something like a constant bane effect centered on the Sorc and only affecting rolls against the Sorc. It should be something that either scales with the Sorc's levels or allows different powers at different levels. It might also give a good way to tie in with the Sorc's power origins: dragon blood causes a fear effect, elemental blood causes elemental damage, celestial blood makes the area consecrated, etc.

With all that charisma and innate magic it just seems like the Sorc should be radiating power like a lamp.

good idea.  I like the flavor, more like mages in literature.  the have a small repertoire of spells but, as they get better, they can do more with them.  Magic missile gets better - if you're willing to spend the high level slots.  It's also makes their casting more dynamic, like in fiction.  You have your standard damaging spell for typical use but you can pump it up when you really need to expend the effort.

It also solves the issue of how weak most of the PHB metamagic is.  If you're getting it for free, no reason to complain.

Just make it clear in the write up that the free metamagic applies only to their sorcerer spells. Otherwise, you'll get munchkins taking one level of sorcerer and using all the metamagic for their 19th level spellcaster.

Looking over the metamagic feats. The only feat that requires "any other metamagic feat" and has a +0 spell level adjustment is Cooperative Spell, which doesn't seem like it would break the game. I think all the rest would probably be balanced by the spell level adjustment and longer casting time.

Okay, I like what I'm reading here.    I will ponder each of the ideas further...

Here's a thought I had last night: the Nothingland alt.sorcerer that I and a number of other people tinkered with had access to all wizard, cleric, and druid spells.  The idea was to allow even more spellcasters from legend and fiction to be duplicated.  I was thinking about that in connection with this alt.sorcerer, but I'm not sure that it wouldn't be too powerful.  It wasn't with that older version of the sorcerer, but I'm not sure about this one.

Given the Sorc's limited number of spells,that doesn't seem too bad. The ability to use scrolls/wands of any kind might be a little powerful, though.

Well, who says that sorcerers can use scrolls and wands of ANY kind?  Since their magic is innate and not studied, it just occured to me that they've got no business using scrolls.  And since 3e wands are just efficiently packaged 50 packs of scrolls, they're the same deal.

Maybe give them access to Use Magic Device -- it's as thematically appropriate for them as it is for the warlock.  It's also Cha based, so they're likely to be good at it -- but they aren't automatically able to use all scrolls and wands straight out of the gate.

That's what I was thinking, too.

What's the status of familiars, then?

Also, how do you address spells that have both arcane/divine versions at different levels? Always the higher or lower level? And the sorceror still casts spells as arcane, even if they are on the divine lists, right?