Okay, so approximately 453,000 alt.sorcerers have been created since 3e D&D first came out.  Some of them, especially the ones based on bloodlines, stretch for pages – one even stretched about 30, if I remember right.  But I think I just came up with an alt no one else has hit yet!

The idea is simple: the sorcerer class functions exactly as it does currently, except that the sorcerer is considered to have access to *all* metamagic feats.  "All" means all the PHB feats for sure; I see no reason to not throw all the other feats in, too, but I'm sure there are at least a few that wouldn't work.

Everything else about the sorcerer stays the same.  One essential thing that would stay the same is that it would take a full action to use metamagic – they cast the spell using their standard action and "shape" it using their move action, if you will.

To give them something to use feats on, they could still choose metamagic feats.  They could use their feat while using their "free" metamagic.  For example, a sorcerer with the still spell feat could spontaneously use the silent spell feat on a magic missile spell.  It would use a 3rd level spell slot, take a full round action to cast, and appear with no evidence tying it to the sorcerer.

Looking over this, I think I'd throw Eschew in free for sorcerers, too.  Everything else is standard.  They have few spells, but they can bend those spells to their will.

Thoughts?

I like it. I might even be willing to keep their spell progression as-is instead of bumping 2nd-level spells to 3rd level instead of 4th.

I'd be interested to see this in practice, but as a DM, I'd be up for letter a player try it out.

Really interesting idea CZ. I like it!

I like it.  I might be inclined to give them a progression as they go up in level.  It wouldn't make much difference, since the feats need higher level slots, but it would make the player feel like they're gaining something.

Quote from: Harry JoyNow that I am deep into my study of Sorcerors, Eschew Materials should be Erratta'd in one way or the other.

Why do you say that?


Well, so far the response is positive.  Cool.  It just struck me that this would better model what they're trying to do with sorcerers -- have casters that only do a few things, but they sure do it well.  

I'd instead let them choose a metamagic feat every couple levels. That way they feel like they're getting abilities spread out over time. You also won't get people taking 1 level of sorcerer just for the assload of free feats. In addition, a low level sorcerer won't be burdened with an excess of feats he's incapable of using.

Quote from: CyberzombieWell, so far the response is positive.

Oh, fuck, yeah.  I had a similar thought, myself, after reading that thread.  You're just a bit better prepared.

Quote from: CyberzombieWhy do you say that?


Well, so far the response is positive.  Cool.  It just struck me that this would better model what they're trying to do with sorcerers -- have casters that only do a few things, but they sure do it well.  

CZ, have you seen the PHB2? They have an option for Sorcerer to swap the ability to gain a familiar with the ability to add metamagic feats to spells without lengthening the casting time (provided the spell is a 1SA cast time). Not only that, Quicken Spell can be used normally.

Combine that with your idea, and Sorcerers might actually be too good.

Quote from: Name LipsI'd instead let them choose a metamagic feat every couple levels. That way they feel like they're getting abilities spread out over time. You also won't get people taking 1 level of sorcerer just for the assload of free feats. In addition, a low level sorcerer won't be burdened with an excess of feats he's incapable of using.

You're missing the point, mang!  Put the bong down and reconsider.  


The sorcerer doesn't get *any* feats for free (except Eschew).  They only get the metamagic feats if they take them normally.  What they get is the ability to spontaneously add a single metamagic effect to a spell that they cast as a full round action.  The ability wouldn't even have much effect if you only took one level of sorcerer.  The more levels of sorcerer you take, the more effect it has.

Go back and reread what I wrote.  


Renna: I don't have the PHB2 and I'm not likely to get it unless the reviews start improving.  

Cool idea.

'Course they can't really use any of those metamagic feats until 4th level when they get 2nd level spells. Though I suppose you could metamagic a 0-level, but why would you want to.

Well, the utility of this at 1st level really depends on whether you allow metamagic from other WotC books and/or 3rd party sources.  If you allow Complete Arcane, for instance, you can use energy substitution to make your burning hands spell four times as useful.  (Or five times, if you use the 3.0 version of the feat.)

But, yeah, the low-level sorcerer is still looking kind of weak.  Yeesh.  :eek:

What about replacing familiars with something? I've never liked sorceror's with familiars from a thematic standpoint.

Some kind of low level power that stems from the inner power of a sorceror. Something like free Spell Penetration, implying that the sorceror's spells are more powerful than a wizards, except overcoming SR is pretty useless at low levels.

How about a) free Combat Casting at low level, or b) can use CHA bonus on Concentration checks because casting the spell is more natural/coming from within/ blah blah blah than a wizard?

Hmm.  I like the idea of adding the Cha bonus to Concentration checks -- keep it a sorcerer-spell-only bonus.

Hopefully, spell resistance is NOT something you're seeing at 1st level.  Yeek!

As for familiars, I think *either* sorcerers should have them, or wizards should -- not both.  Because of D&D's history, I'd have wizards keep 'em myself.

That leaves open the question of what a sorcerer would get in exchange.  Perhaps the light armour/d6 HD/4 skill points/Cha skills package, along with the abilities mentioned in this thread, would make a decent class.  And a class further distinct from the wizard.

Of course, after Arcana Evolved, I'm pretty much on the side of giving wizards a d6 HD, too.  

Quote from: CyberzombieIf you allow Complete Arcane, for instance, you can use energy substitution to make your burning hands spell four times as useful.  (Or five times, if you use the 3.0 version of the feat.)

The way it is described, you have to pick one energy type for energy substitution, so you only make your spells twice as useful.

How would you deal with some of the metamagic feats that require "at least X metamagic feats", assuming that they're including those pre-reqs to force the feats to higher levels?