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Has there ever been a greater tool for the indie rpg publisher than AI art? If you are opposed to it, do you understand how it works?
1. AI art uses 0.01% of reference images, generating never before seen things.
2. The line between photoshop effects and image generation is very very blurry.
3. It looks pretty cool.

Is this asked with a straight face or are you being sarcastic?

'Cos after I looked at the art - the distorted coins and the dragon wing that seems to extend from the ridgeline of the beast's neck, I wasn't too sure.

Quote from: Hixanthrope on May 03, 2023, 03:21:42 AM
Has there ever been a greater tool for the indie rpg publisher than AI art? If you are opposed to it, do you understand how it works?
1. AI art uses 0.01% of reference images, generating never before seen things.
2. The line between photoshop effects and image generation is very very blurry.
3. It looks pretty cool.

Not this shit again.....

Quote from: ponta1010 on May 03, 2023, 04:48:38 AM
Is this asked with a straight face or are you being sarcastic?

'Cos after I looked at the art - the distorted coins and the dragon wing that seems to extend from the ridgeline of the beast's neck, I wasn't too sure.

yes im serious. don't compare it to the best art, compare it to rpg art and tell me this isn't cool. I'm actually not here to preach for ai, i want the discussion.

AI "art" is in its infancy. 10 years from now it will be so common threads like this will be like thread a few decades ago with tips to get extra speed from your 56K Dial Up.

Until it's decided in court, the legality of AI art is going to be a potential risk, particularly for those creators working on a shoestring budget.

Let's say a year from now a court decides AI art is copyright infringement and your product is loaded down with AI art. Do you have backup art ready to replace it in future sales (as a small timer I am presuming print on demand so at least you wouldn't have to destroy inventory)? Do you just have blank spaces now?

Until it's settled in court, using AI art commercially is something only outfits who could already afford real art (and are just trying to maximize profit) could afford to use.

Use it for images in home games? Sure.

Use it a freeware product you're just dumping on the internet? Tons of fan projects for established properties use copyrighted art and mostly get away with it because they aren't profiting off it and the IP holder views it as essentially free publicity.

But for something you hope to sell? Stick with Creative Commons or commission your own work.

Even if AI art does get the thumbs up from the courts, consider using real art (CC or commissioned) anyway just because AI art will be a dime-a-dozen. I'm sure an IKEA bookshelf is fully functional, but people still pay more for handcrafted hardwood bookshelves... specifically because it's handmade.

Quote from: ponta1010 on May 03, 2023, 04:48:38 AM
'Cos after I looked at the art - the distorted coins and the dragon wing that seems to extend from the ridgeline of the beast's neck, I wasn't too sure.

It's like a Liefield piece. Compentent in seperate chunks, but the whole is awful and wonky.

Quote from: Hixanthrope on May 03, 2023, 05:35:55 AM

Quote from: ponta1010 on May 03, 2023, 04:48:38 AM
Is this asked with a straight face or are you being sarcastic?

'Cos after I looked at the art - the distorted coins and the dragon wing that seems to extend from the ridgeline of the beast's neck, I wasn't too sure.

yes im serious. don't compare it to the best art, compare it to rpg art and tell me this isn't cool. I'm actually not here to preach for ai, i want the discussion.

Interesting that you mention Indie RPGs in your original post. I think people are excited about the idea of pushing a button and getting "free" art. But I think AI Art, like an AI GM, is a long ways away from producing anything satisfying that you can't get from (relatively) cheap Stock Art. (Or in the case of an AI GM, a Mad Libs adventure)
For now, I put it in the same category as that nasty Poser art. People are going to use the tool to churn out forgettable page fillers.

Quote from: Chris24601 on May 03, 2023, 06:55:02 AM
Until it's decided in court, the legality of AI art is going to be a potential risk, particularly for those creators working on a shoestring budget.

Isn't it already?

https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2023/03/16/2023-05321/copyright-registration-guidance-works-containing-material-generated-by-artificial-intelligence

I actually have Stable Diffusion installed on my PC (although generally I use a laptop.) I've generated about 1000 images with it, so I think I can speak with some experience.

Realistically, while AI isn't quite good enough to be indistinguishable from a B-list human artist, it's close and will clearly get there in the near future, and competing with A-list artists isn't out of the question. Most of the flaws you see on AI artwork are either from using obsolete models (the first round of SD models can't generate hands, but the new ones can), because the prompter is using incorrect settings, or the prompter is not generating enough first pass images or not following up with an Image to Image refinement step. AI art is notably more complex than just keying in a few words and the cloud services which let you do that are probably cheating.

AI artwork is also definitely not infringing on the artwork it was trained on. I posted earlier about an experiment I ran trying to recreate an image I had previously generated. Same computer, same model, same prompt, same settings, same random seed. It did not generate the same image repeatedly.

In other words, AI art is going to absolutely dominate illustration and most artists will probably transition from illustration to animation. Even if it isn't legal, artists will start passing off AI artwork as their own.

As of right now, the Copyright Office has said that they are not going to enforce copyright claims for AI art. In other words, even if you don't think AI art trained on real artworks can legally create commercial artwork, it's going to be hard to argue you can't use real artworks to train a private model, and then use the outputs from the private model to create a public model.

The bottom line is that AI art is absolutely going to change art. While I would recommend waiting and seeing, there is something to be said about guerilla marketing by intentionally stirring up a fight.

As a kid, I couldn't color in the lines. As an adult, I realize it's not because I lack the ability, it's because I don't care. I can't draw to save my life, and I'm completely disinterested. I do have friends who are artists, either as a hobby or professionally. I'm aware how time-consuming it is to make a quality piece.

Recently I've kicked around the prospect of commissioning a piece, but there are several challenges to that. I have to find an artist who's style I like, and then one that is accepting commissions. Next, I have to adequately describe the piece I want in a way the artist understands and can create. None of the artists I've found are cheap, which is understandable because they put in a lot of hours. The more I spend, the more demanding I'm going to be about getting exactly what I want, which gets back to the challenge of communicating what I want.

One of my players set up some AI programs on her computer to generate images of her characters. She spent about a week or two trying to generate the one character she's been playing the longest. Nothing came out exactly right, but in the mass of images generated, she would find things she liked - the face, the hair, the figure, the skin complexion, a piece of jewelry, an article of clothing, or the background scenery.

The AI was giving her concept art. Had she been working with a real human, this would have been prohibitively expensive. That's the main reason why I've never tried to commission anything. The first step of, "What do you want?" is too costly in terms of the artist's time. What's more, every artist knows damned well they need to make the concept phase of the process less expensive and time-consuming.

Quote from: Chris24601 on May 03, 2023, 06:55:02 AM
Until it's decided in court, the legality of AI art is going to be a potential risk, particularly for those creators working on a shoestring budget.

Let's say a year from now a court decides AI art is copyright infringement and your product is loaded down with AI art. Do you have backup art ready to replace it in future sales (as a small timer I am presuming print on demand so at least you wouldn't have to destroy inventory)? Do you just have blank spaces now?

Until it's settled in court, using AI art commercially is something only outfits who could already afford real art (and are just trying to maximize profit) could afford to use.

Use it for images in home games? Sure.

Use it a freeware product you're just dumping on the internet? Tons of fan projects for established properties use copyrighted art and mostly get away with it because they aren't profiting off it and the IP holder views it as essentially free publicity.

But for something you hope to sell? Stick with Creative Commons or commission your own work.

Even if AI art does get the thumbs up from the courts, consider using real art (CC or commissioned) anyway just because AI art will be a dime-a-dozen. I'm sure an IKEA bookshelf is fully functional, but people still pay more for handcrafted hardwood bookshelves... specifically because it's handmade.

You can't stop human sexuality.  Either fortunately or unfortunately, sexual urges eventually triumph over pretty much every safeguard of civilization.  10 years from now, most of us will be living in pods, the machines creating A.I. virtual reality porn of anything imaginable that we can escape into for hours each day. 

Quote from: Fheredin on May 03, 2023, 08:20:16 AM
In other words, AI art is going to absolutely dominate illustration and most artists will probably transition from illustration to animation.

It seems to me that if AI can get to dominate illustration, animation would be the next step.

Quote from: Ratman_tf on May 03, 2023, 09:09:41 AMIt seems to me that if AI can get to dominate illustration, animation would be the next step.

Google is already shown some early animation tests... this is 100% coming. People can go on how it looks bad... at the moment.. but this tech is going to be like the internet or the mobile phone or w/e. There will be a time when our kids or grandkids will not even be able to understand the world when it was not around.

Quote from: Hixanthrope on May 03, 2023, 03:21:42 AM
If you are opposed to it, do you understand how it works?

Being condescending on this forum isn't going to make you friends.

Quote from: GhostNinja on May 03, 2023, 09:29:04 AM

Quote from: Hixanthrope on May 03, 2023, 03:21:42 AM
If you are opposed to it, do you understand how it works?

Being condescending on this forum isn't going to make you friends.

I don't find that condescending.  In fact, I find it to be a relevant question.  There are so many claims concerning out there based on a misunderstanding of how AI generates the art that I think a preliminary discussion on that subject is almost a necessity.

Quote from: GhostNinja on May 03, 2023, 09:29:04 AM

Quote from: Hixanthrope on May 03, 2023, 03:21:42 AM
If you are opposed to it, do you understand how it works?

Being condescending on this forum isn't going to make you friends.

This is an opportunity for someone who really knows how it works (I read into it a lot, but i'm no programmer) to make a case. Don't be so sensitive, we're all crusty grogs here. There are people who literally think AI art traces reference images. So if you have something to add instead of just being offended, I'm all ears.

Quotenk AI Art, like an AI GM, is a long ways away from producing anything satisfying

10 years is generous. it's actually a lot farther along than most people realize. Open a random book from your shelf, do it look this good? And to muddy the waters further, there are already artists who use ai or just parts of ai tools to help create parts of images, produce variations, finish a sketch, or any other combination of computer and human endeavors. Is that AI art?

Quote from: rkhigdon on May 03, 2023, 11:54:16 AM
I don't find that condescending.  In fact, I find it to be a relevant question.  There are so many claims concerning out there based on a misunderstanding of how AI generates the art that I think a preliminary discussion on that subject is almost a necessity.

I guess you have a point.

Quote from: Hixanthrope on May 03, 2023, 11:57:11 AM
This is an opportunity for someone who really knows how it works (I read into it a lot, but i'm no programmer) to make a case. Don't be so sensitive, we're all crusty grogs here. There are people who literally think AI art traces reference images. So if you have something to add instead of just being offended, I'm all ears.

I found this to be a good article on AI art:

https://magazine.artland.com/ai-art/#:~:text=To%20create%20AI%2Dgenerated%20art,a%20specific%20style%20or%20aesthetic.

I expect more AI art.  A LOT more. 

I give you Praetor Emma Watson, of the XX legion. 

This was made in 5 minutes using Mage.Space, using Stable Diffusion with the DucHaitenJourney option by just typing in "Emma Watson Roman Legionary" and got a good one on the third try. 

Is it ethical?  In this case, no, but that's entirely due to the recognizable actress.  The picture subject material is fine. 

AI is a tool.

It is inevitable, as most of technology.

Still, this hobby was created with the helps of artists such as Jeff Easley and I feel bad seeing their signatures erased, metaphorically speaking.

So, I won't use AI art in my books while I can do otherwise. I prefer to give at least some credit to actual artists - and there is plenty of good stock art available for reasonable prices.

Realistically, DTRPG will be filled with AI art (say, 70% of best-sellers - IF we are able to tell the difference) within a year or two, then Chaosium, D&D, etc. Also YouTube and so on.

Nobody could compete with AI art by this point.

AI text is coming right after; our random tables will be written by bots, and people will publish 500+ pages setting written in a weekend.

The amount of trash will rise exponentially - although I'm sure there are 500+ page setting written by humans that are almost as trashy.

Eventually, Game Masters and players will be replaced by AI. Psychologists, lawyers too. Tinder will be replaced by relationship bots and dolls.

There will always be those who still prefer vinil records, however, and physical books, and "electronic fasting" etc.

Inevitable.

EDIT: sounds like dystopia, but could be utopia. If only we used it for good...

Is it ethical?

As I've said, it is a tool, it can be used for good or evil;

For me, a monopoly on AI is far more dangerous than free AI anyone can use in their indie games.

Once men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free. But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them. - Frank Herbert, Dune.

I've been writing about this in my blog.

https://methodsetmadness.blogspot.com/2023/02/nick-cave-roald-dahl-and-colonel-some.html

https://methodsetmadness.blogspot.com/2022/12/condensed-information-in-ocean-of-trash.html

"I found this to be a good article on AI art:"
This is cool. The more I learn about AI art, the more its opposers look like the people who threw fruit at Dylan for playing electric.

[/quote]

Quote from: weirdguy564 on May 03, 2023, 12:54:39 PM
Is it ethical?  In this case, no, but that's entirely due to the recognizable actress.

Is it unethical to draw a celebrity? Is it even illegal to draw a picture of a real person and use it as trade dress? How close does it have to be to be unethical/illegal? Not even trolling, I don't know.

Quote from: Hixanthrope on May 03, 2023, 01:01:33 PM
"I found this to be a good article on AI art:"
This is cool. The more I learn about AI art, the more its opposers look like the people who threw fruit at Dylan for playing electric.

Well the issue still lies that AI art does take from already published art so there are questions about copyright infringement. 

Quote from: Eric Diaz on May 03, 2023, 12:58:19 PM
Is it ethical?

As I've said, it is a tool, it can be used for good or evil;

Yep. Any kind of intelligence also allows for the possibility of stupidity.  AI is not immune. For some activities, it may be refined to the point where it's particular kind of stupidity is worth the trade for its particular kind of intelligence.  The machine can do a lot of things faster than people can, sometimes even things so fast that a human can't productively do them.  When it makes a mistake, it makes a lot of mistakes, in a hurry.   ;D

In the virtual world, this doesn't matter so much.  You can have the AI generate a thousand images, do a quick scan to narrow down to some of the better ones.  And then if a human who knows what they are doing alters it, you might even put a little soul back into it on occasion. The 90 to 99.99 percent mistakes are just bytes that can be deleted. 

What an AI lacks is discernment.  To the extent you want that in your art, you'll still need a human for the foreseeable future. 

"Copyright infringement" is Law, not ethics, IMO - the same piece of work could be public domain or protected if you cross a border. I know my opinion on this isn't popular but I find copyright creates more harm than good.

Is it ethical to sue or threaten people that use Lovecraft and Howard material in their RPGs?

In theory, AI could get rid of my bureaucratic dayjob, allowing me to dedicate my life to writing.

In practice, it might steal my dayjob, and make publishing without AI impossible, so I'll spend the rest of my days doing whatever the owners of AI rights want me to do.

Quote from: GhostNinja on May 03, 2023, 01:03:33 PM

Quote from: Hixanthrope on May 03, 2023, 01:01:33 PM
"I found this to be a good article on AI art:"
This is cool. The more I learn about AI art, the more its opposers look like the people who threw fruit at Dylan for playing electric.

Well the issue still lies that AI art does take from already published art so there are questions about copyright infringement.

from what I understand, what's taken in 0.01% of an image. that's a shape, a line, a set of colors. If I tell the image generator to draw me a mushroom man in the style of Moebius, it looks at all the available reference material, and combines tiny parts of those images to emulate a style, in the process creating something entirely new. Reminds me of my own cerative process, when I'm writing a new adventure, a lot of times I'll watch an old sci-fi movie re-write the setup from memory. In the process I change enough and get enough things wrong to make it my own. Seems like AI art does the same thing.

AI art is fairly technically proficient and is getting better for sure. However, technique is only one aspect of art.

Art is a form of communication and, in my view, good art makes you feel something. The artist wants to say something and has an intention for the piece. The viewer views all that through the lens of their own experience and, hopefully, feels something.

AI art lacks that. It's superficial. I might respond to an AI piece, but once I find out it's AI art, I would feel tricked because it's empty of anything deeper.

I don't consider a text prompt to fill the role of the artist. Someone who writes a text prompt is more like a curator. They are selecting a piece of art from a vast repository. A human artist has all that other stuff in their mind while they are creating the piece.

Ultimately, I view AI art as closer to natural beauty than to art. You definitely feel something when looking at the Rocky Mountains or Grand Canyon, but the range is limited because natural beauty does not have human intention or the desire to express something. My response to both is usually amazement that something like this could exist. Searching for deeper meaning would be futile.

As far as RPG books that use AI art, the comparison holds. An RPG book chock full of AI art is pretty much the same as an RPG book that is filled with stock photos.

Quote from: weirdguy564 on May 03, 2023, 12:54:39 PMMage.Space

Cool... that one is pretty good!

The funny thing is while we have Stable Diffusion at home, we really want(ed) to use real artists for our author's blog and other stuff related to our books and eventual RPGs. We're using Stable Diffusion instead. It isn't perfect, but it gets the job done.

We could not find an artist we could afford that

0. we liked there art (some art styles just aren't right for what we want)
1. wasn't using AI art (infinite reworks for $25 means you are using AI art)
2. was willing to do commercial work (so we could use it on our blog and in books)
3. would advertise even a price range (yes, I know more complex pictures cost more -- are you a $100 artist, a $1000 artist, or $10,000 artist)
4. was within our price range (the people we found that we liked with prices do professional covers for folks like Brandon Sanderson, which means they are on the $10,000 end of the scale)

We spent 4-5 days looking for artists. Then said, screw it, and made what we needed with Stable Diffusion (installed via Easy Diffusion) over a weekend.

We do not wish to waste our time or the artist's time sending queries for commercial work and prices. We tried that and it was a waste of time -- either they didn't do commercial or worked every third harvest moon or didn't reply. Or were again way to pricey for us.

ETA: Oh, and don't get me started on the people with all the "No AI Art" logos and stuff, that wouldn't even conceive of doing commercial work.

Quote from: rytrasmi on May 03, 2023, 01:23:25 PM
good art makes you feel something...

1. ok but that's really subjective
2. I don't think most of the art in my rpg books really makes me feel something. The good ones may get me excited to play and give me a cool visual reference when getting immersed.
3. One of these representations of Yeenoghu DemonLord of Gnolls is AI art, you can probably tell which one, but for me, the ai pic is not my least favorite one.

Quote from: Eric Diaz on May 03, 2023, 01:09:26 PM
"Copyright infringement" is Law, not ethics, IMO - the same piece of work could be public domain or protected if you cross a border. I know my opinion on this isn't popular but I find copyright creates more harm than good.

I understand the difference.  I was just stating that AI art could lead to copyright infringement which has been talked about before.

Quote from: Hixanthrope on May 03, 2023, 01:13:40 PM
from what I understand, what's taken in 0.01% of an image. that's a shape, a line, a set of colors. If I tell the image generator to draw me a mushroom man in the style of Moebius, it looks at all the available reference material, and combines tiny parts of those images to emulate a style, in the process creating something entirely new. Reminds me of my own cerative process, when I'm writing a new adventure, a lot of times I'll watch an old sci-fi movie re-write the setup from memory. In the process I change enough and get enough things wrong to make it my own. Seems like AI art does the same thing.

If we had actual data to that effect that would be one thing.  As far as I know we do not, not speculation.

Quote from: Corolinth on May 03, 2023, 08:44:35 AM
...
The AI was giving her concept art. Had she been working with a real human, this would have been prohibitively expensive.
...

At the very least, this is a powerful time-saving tool for RPG designers.

You can have your entire RPG already laid out, ready to go to the printers, with concept art throughout.

It's then just a matter of turning your concept art over to an artist and saying: "Give me X".

Inside ten years, most black and white "old school" style art (That was never that technically great to begin with) will be completely possible by AI generation alone.

In the future Human art in RPG's will be done by the visibly talented. AI will wipe out the lower end of the talent scale.

Quote from: Hixanthrope on May 03, 2023, 01:44:00 PM
2. I don't think most of the art in my rpg books really makes me feel something. The good ones may get me excited to play and give me a cool visual reference when getting immersed.

Exactly.  I most of the time totally ignore the art in rpg books and pay attention to the background information and the rules.  If an rpg book had no art I would be fine.

The world is what I picture in my mind, not what some artist draws.

Quote from: GhostNinja on May 03, 2023, 01:45:57 PM

actual data to that effect that would be one thing.  As far as I know we do not, not speculation.
[/quote]
https://www.paepper.com/blog/posts/everything-you-need-to-know-about-stable-diffusion/
I don't really understand everything they're talking about but this one has pictures

Quote from: Hixanthrope on May 03, 2023, 01:44:00 PM

Quote from: rytrasmi on May 03, 2023, 01:23:25 PM
good art makes you feel something...

1. ok but that's really subjective
2. I don't think most of the art in my rpg books really makes me feel something. The good ones may get me excited to play and give me a cool visual reference when getting immersed.

Excitement is a feeling. And I put the qualifier "good" in there because a lot of art is not good.

Even if you ignore feeling and appreciate art at the intellectual level and for its technical proficiency, I don't trust AI art. AI is known to be "confidently incorrect". In contrast, a good human artist will study Gnolls or whatever subject, might read about them and their history and mythology, before creating a piece. In a good piece of art there's a reason for every detail. A pose, symbol, theme, etc, is there for a reason and it can give you a greater understanding of the piece.

So, even as an illustrator, AI is going to mess things up because it doesn't understand what it's doing. It's going to give the Gnoll claws because that's what training images show. It's not going to understand that a claw can be broken. It's not going to understand that "combat" in a text prompt means that a broken claw is an interesting detail to add. A human artist would, and that makes the whole experience richer.

Quote from: Hixanthrope on May 03, 2023, 01:54:54 PM
https://www.paepper.com/blog/posts/everything-you-need-to-know-about-stable-diffusion/
I don't really understand everything they're talking about but this one has pictures

Interesting.  I will have to try Stable Diffusion out tonight.

Thank you for the information.

Quote from: GhostNinja on May 03, 2023, 02:17:49 PM

Quote from: Hixanthrope on May 03, 2023, 01:54:54 PM
https://www.paepper.com/blog/posts/everything-you-need-to-know-about-stable-diffusion/
I don't really understand everything they're talking about but this one has pictures

Interesting.  I will have to try Stable Diffusion out tonight.

Thank you for the information.

This, last I tried, was the easiest way to install.

https://github.com/cmdr2/stable-diffusion-ui#installation (https://github.com/cmdr2/stable-diffusion-ui#installation)

I even switched from Manjaro to Linux Mint and the install still worked. (It's Python.)

Quote from: Tod13 on May 03, 2023, 02:33:27 PM

Quote from: GhostNinja on May 03, 2023, 02:17:49 PM

Quote from: Hixanthrope on May 03, 2023, 01:54:54 PM
https://www.paepper.com/blog/posts/everything-you-need-to-know-about-stable-diffusion/
I don't really understand everything they're talking about but this one has pictures

Interesting.  I will have to try Stable Diffusion out tonight.

Thank you for the information.

This, last I tried, was the easiest way to install.

https://github.com/cmdr2/stable-diffusion-ui#installation (https://github.com/cmdr2/stable-diffusion-ui#installation)

I even switched from Manjaro to Linux Mint and the install still worked. (It's Python.)

thanks for this, I was struggling with all the installation steps. easy diffusion is the way to go.

Warning: I found this Disturbing.

Quote from: Tod13 on May 03, 2023, 02:33:27 PM
This, last I tried, was the easiest way to install.

https://github.com/cmdr2/stable-diffusion-ui#installation (https://github.com/cmdr2/stable-diffusion-ui#installation)

I even switched from Manjaro to Linux Mint and the install still worked. (It's Python.)

Thank you for the link.  I was going to search for it myself but this makes it much easier.

Here is an image I generated for use in my latest publication. Obviously I find the output passable for use in a ttrpg book. I don't have to wait for it. I type, it illustrates, done. Primitive tech at this point, but still very useful.

Here is a landscape we did:
(https://www.therpgsite.com/pen-paper-roleplaying-games-rpgs-discussion/ai-art-in-indie-rpgs/?action=dlattach;attach=3228;image)

And here is a starscape:
(https://www.therpgsite.com/pen-paper-roleplaying-games-rpgs-discussion/ai-art-in-indie-rpgs/?action=dlattach;attach=3230;image)

And here is a wizard/cowboy:
(https://www.therpgsite.com/pen-paper-roleplaying-games-rpgs-discussion/ai-art-in-indie-rpgs/?action=dlattach;attach=3232;image)

Not awesome, but not gruesome either. We have better versions of the cowboy too. But we're saving those for possible use later.

Female Barbarian art.   It took 5 minutes.  Yes, the first one is Keira Knightly. 

This is going to be the new normal.  It's just too easy to get acceptable art.

Quote from: DocJones on May 03, 2023, 02:56:04 PM
Warning: I found this Disturbing.

LOL

I found it disturbing as well :)

Quote from: weirdguy564 on May 03, 2023, 04:46:36 PM
Female Barbarian art.   It took 5 minutes.  Yes, the first one is Keira Knightly. 

This is going to be the new normal.  It's just too easy to get acceptable art.

Would and would.

And you are right it is easy. Eventually the .1 or whatever that it takes from will continue to shrink. What terrifies me is that my kids' kids will never be able to trust what they see, unless it happens right in front of their face.

This can be used to churn out fake news. I imagine governments are gonna ban it because it removes their ability to control the public. I certainly hope they do.

Also, AI art steals the work of human artists and then drives them out of business. Many of my favorite artists have nuked their galleries and given up on art. This is absolutely terrible. Kids with art talent are gonna give up and never learn art. Adult artists are all gonna starve to death or get soul crushing jobs at burger joints.

AI is going to kill the human soul and the concept of truth. Thanks, I hate it. I hope those techbros jealous of art skills are happy with themselves. They've probably doomed us all.

Quote from: FingerRod on May 03, 2023, 06:10:30 PM

Quote from: weirdguy564 on May 03, 2023, 04:46:36 PM
Female Barbarian art.   It took 5 minutes.  Yes, the first one is Keira Knightly. 

This is going to be the new normal.  It's just too easy to get acceptable art.

Would and would.

And you are right it is easy. Eventually the .1 or whatever that it takes from will continue to shrink. What terrifies me is that my kids' kids will never be able to trust what they see, unless it happens right in front of their face.

We're already there. Live pitch correction is commonplace. You can't trust whatyou hear if there is any kind of speaker involved.

I do know one thing.  Inigo Montoya ought to be glad he killed the six-fingered man all those years ago.  With AI art there is a whole new army of people out there that seem to have that disfigurement. 

Case in point.  I cropped the edges of the Keira Knightly red barbarian.  You don't want to see how crooked her spear is, or that it just sort of melded thru her hand.  That being said, looking at the results of a few minutes work is pretty convincing that it could really be a still image of Keira in costume for a movie. 

Quote from: Ratman_tf on May 03, 2023, 09:09:41 AM

Quote from: Fheredin on May 03, 2023, 08:20:16 AM
In other words, AI art is going to absolutely dominate illustration and most artists will probably transition from illustration to animation.

It seems to me that if AI can get to dominate illustration, animation would be the next step.

It already can. The point is that you have to train it on characters. The current workflow is an illustrator training an AI and then telling the AI to animate something. Could you cut the illustrator out? Probably eventually, but in the meantime, having an illustrator means you can train the AI to do things it hasn't been trained on.

Quote from: weirdguy564 on May 03, 2023, 09:08:06 PM
I do know one thing.  Inigo Montoya ought to be glad he killed the six-fingered man all those years ago.  With AI art there is a whole new army of people out there that seem to have that disfigurement. 

Case in point.  I cropped the edges of the Keira Knightly red barbarian.  You don't want to see how crooked her spear is, or that it just sort of melded thru her hand.  That being said, looking at the results of a few minutes work is pretty convincing that it could really be a still image of Keira in costume for a movie.

I think this is probably a settings or model problem. What model are you using and how many diffusion passes are you giving it?

I know that there's a newer version, but I'm looking at the manual for the RPG V2 model, and the maker recommended 75 passes, then take the best of a batch of 8 and run it through Image 2 Image for another 50-60 passes.

Quote from: weirdguy564 on May 03, 2023, 09:08:06 PM
I do know one thing.  Inigo Montoya ought to be glad he killed the six-fingered man all those years ago.  With AI art there is a whole new army of people out there that seem to have that disfigurement. 

Case in point.  I cropped the edges of the Keira Knightly red barbarian.  You don't want to see how crooked her spear is, or that it just sort of melded thru her hand.  That being said, looking at the results of a few minutes work is pretty convincing that it could really be a still image of Keira in costume for a movie.

Scary. So could you do Keira as a goblin barbarian?

Quote from: Ratman_tf on May 03, 2023, 06:58:56 AM

Quote from: ponta1010 on May 03, 2023, 04:48:38 AM
'Cos after I looked at the art - the distorted coins and the dragon wing that seems to extend from the ridgeline of the beast's neck, I wasn't too sure.

It's like a Liefield piece. Compentent in seperate chunks, but the whole is awful and wonky.

That made me laugh. It was a good analogy.

It's not a very good Kiera, but it's a pretty good Frank
bing image creator

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on May 03, 2023, 06:47:07 PM
This can be used to churn out fake news. I imagine governments are gonna ban it because it removes their ability to control the public. I certainly hope they do.

Also, AI art steals the work of human artists and then drives them out of business. Many of my favorite artists have nuked their galleries and given up on art. This is absolutely terrible. Kids with art talent are gonna give up and never learn art. Adult artists are all gonna starve to death or get soul crushing jobs at burger joints.

AI is going to kill the human soul and the concept of truth. Thanks, I hate it. I hope those techbros jealous of art skills are happy with themselves. They've probably doomed us all.

(https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/001/041/105/b9e.jpg)

1) This is way too big, and way too potentially game changing to put back in the bottle. It's loose, it will become ubiquitous and powerful, and society will have to adapt around it. It will have huge pros and cons, like every major invention.

2) Artists can join the line of artisans replaced by technology stretching back to the cavemen that tied flint to sticks for a living.

Neither of these points are value judgements, just a big cup of reality coffee.

Quote from: Hixanthrope on May 03, 2023, 10:03:58 PM
It's not a very good Kiera, but it's a pretty good Frank
bing image creator

Holy cow. If you squint you can see the eyes, chin and jawline though. Crazy.

A lot of the art in indie RPGs is pretty crappy, so the use of AI images can only be beneficial. Obviously, major publishers will never use AI-generated images as long as they can't copyright the art.

Quote from: Fheredin on May 03, 2023, 09:29:18 PM

Quote from: weirdguy564 on May 03, 2023, 09:08:06 PM
I do know one thing.  Inigo Montoya ought to be glad he killed the six-fingered man all those years ago.  With AI art there is a whole new army of people out there that seem to have that disfigurement. 

Case in point.  I cropped the edges of the Keira Knightly red barbarian.  You don't want to see how crooked her spear is, or that it just sort of melded thru her hand.  That being said, looking at the results of a few minutes work is pretty convincing that it could really be a still image of Keira in costume for a movie.

I think this is probably a settings or model problem. What model are you using and how many diffusion passes are you giving it?

I know that there's a newer version, but I'm looking at the manual for the RPG V2 model, and the maker recommended 75 passes, then take the best of a batch of 8 and run it through Image 2 Image for another 50-60 passes.

Grabbing a few extra models from here https://civitai.com/ (https://civitai.com/) helps a lot. Dreamshaper and Deliberate are two of our favorites. For landscapes Disco Diffusion, Alien Landscapes, Photography and Landscapes, and Sci-Fi Diffusion are all useful to work with, depending on what you want.

Also, play with the Samplers and Negative Prompts. Also, more iterations isn't always better. When working on crested gecko pictures, I found around 100 to be optimal for that.

Models

For general settings, we use one of the two setups below. If Dreamshaper gives bad looking eyes, change the VAE to the one listed for deliberate. The VAE is optimized to produce proper eyes. Works on dogs and humans.

Sampler: euler_a
Model: dreamshaper_331BakedVae
VAE: NONE

Sampler: euler_a
Model: deliberate_v2
VAE: vae-ft-mse-840000-ema-pruned

A good General Negative Prompt for us is:

malformed limbs, out of frame, signature, blurry, deformed, fused fingers, mutation, duplicate, extra fingers, gross proportions, mutilated, watermark, dehydrated, jpeg artifacts, username, missing arms, low quality, bad proportions, extra legs, poorly drawn hands, cropped, lowres, ugly, too many fingers, disfigured, error, extra limbs, missing legs, bad anatomy, morbid, long neck, text, extra arms, mutated hands, cloned face, poorly drawn face, out of frame, worst quality

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on May 03, 2023, 06:47:07 PM
This can be used to churn out fake news. I imagine governments are gonna ban it because it removes their ability to control the public. I certainly hope they do.

Also, AI art steals the work of human artists and then drives them out of business. Many of my favorite artists have nuked their galleries and given up on art. This is absolutely terrible. Kids with art talent are gonna give up and never learn art. Adult artists are all gonna starve to death or get soul crushing jobs at burger joints.

AI is going to kill the human soul and the concept of truth. Thanks, I hate it. I hope those techbros jealous of art skills are happy with themselves. They've probably doomed us all.

I'm scared of AI, but ten times more scared of governments doing anything to control the public. Even knowing it risks both my job and my creative endeavours.

Governments + AI is dystopia.

Freedom + AI, I'd say it is a coin toss... utopia or dystopia.

Governments cannot get rid of AI; they can make it illegal (like, say, cocaine), but it will still exist and I doubt they won't use it against the people.

I will be using AI Art in my projects moving forward when/where possible to save costs.  i do not mind generating the art and working with an artist to touch up or altar some parts here and there as AI art absolutely sucks at drawing hands and feet still.  I use both Stable Diffusion and MidJourney.  MJ is night and day a brazillian times better than Stable Diffusion.  For $10/mo I get art that would cost me 10x that for a single piece and i can generate hundreds on the fly.

Artists SHOULD be advertising their services to altar and clean up the AI generated content if they are that hungry for work. There's a market for it for sure and they can knock out a few dozen in a day and make a pretty penny

I think this says it best:

"By the time Skynet became self-aware it had spread into millions of computer servers across the planet. Ordinary computers in office buildings, dorm rooms; everywhere. It was software; in cyberspace. There was no system core; it could not be shutdown. The attack began at 6:18 PM, just as he said it would. Judgment Day, the day the human race was almost destroyed by the weapons they'd built to protect themselves. I should have realized it was never our destiny to stop Judgment Day, it was merely to survive it, together. The Terminator knew; he tried to tell us, but I didn't want to hear it. Maybe the future has been written. I don't know; all I know is what the Terminator taught me; never stop fighting. And I never will. The battle has just begun."

I'm just impressed we can get art like this out of just a few minutes of typing. 

Olivia Wilde might not want herself used for art without her permission for something like this.  Only comedy/parody projects are allowed to use somebody's likeness and not need consent.

But if I made a free RPG, can I use this as cover art?   My guess is no, even without the money being a factor.  Again, it's not parody, so it's not ok.  Olivia could sue. 

Quote from: weirdguy564 on May 04, 2023, 10:44:35 AM
I'm just impressed we can get art like this out of just a few minutes of typing. 

Olivia Wilde might not want herself used for art without her permission for something like this.  Only comedy/parody projects are allowed to use somebody's likeness and not need consent.

But if I made a free RPG, can I use this as cover art?   My guess is no, even without the money being a factor.  Again, it's not parody, so it's not ok.  Olivia could sue.

What's weird is that that totally works, her having armor on.

Quote from: GhostNinja on May 04, 2023, 10:54:07 AM

What's weird is that that totally works, her having armor on.

I know, right? 

Full disclosure.  I went to Mage.Space (I paid for pro level), typed in, "Olivia Wilde knight" and set it to use DucHaitenJourney option, but left all other settings to stock (50 passes etc).  It came back with her in street clothes three times. 

So 2nd attempt I changed the text to be, "Olivia Wilde in armor", and the picture you see is the first result, unedited and un-cropped. 

Like you, I'm impressed by how modest and logical the armor looks.  Most women get the armored bikini or boobie-cones on their chest plate.  This one is subtle, but it's a real armor that would work.  Something the website, "Women in reasonable armor," would approve of. 

For example, Larry Elmore drew my avatar pic, literally Betty Page in a leopard bikini with thigh high boots, and a two handed sword that straps to her back.  Not sexist or unrealistic at all, right? 

Ok, I confess.  I like both styles of women's fantasy armor, but I lean toward reasonable stuff like Olivia's. 

But back to copyright rights, Larry didn't ask Betty for her permission.  I'm sure it was OK because the real woman had disappeared and had never sued anybody.  She just lived a simple life with a new identity in Florida and didn't want anybody to know who she used to be.  Still, Larry was technically guilty. 

Quote from: weirdguy564 on May 04, 2023, 12:24:49 PM
I know, right? 

Full disclosure.  I went to Mage.Space (I paid for pro level), typed in, "Olivia Wilde knight" and set it to use DucHaitenJourney option, but left all other settings to stock (50 passes etc).  It came back with her in street clothes three times. 

So 2nd attempt I changed the text to be, "Olivia Wilde Armored", and the picture you see is the first result, unedited and un-cropped. 

Like you, I'm impressed by how modest and logical the armor looks.  Most women get the armored bikini or boobie-cones on their chest plate.  This one is subtle, but it's a real armor that would work.  Something the website, " Women in reasonable armor", would approve of. 

For example, Larry Elmore drew my avatar pic, literally Betty Page in a leopard bikini with thigh high boots, and a two handed sword that straps to her back.  Not sexist or unrealistic at all, right? 

Ok, I confess.  I like both styles of women's fantasy armor, but I lean toward reasonable stuff like Olivia's. 

Yeah, that did an amazing job.  It looks so real.

I would definitely watch a movie with her in armor looking like that.

I am going to check out Mage.space

Quote from: Rhymer88 on May 04, 2023, 09:26:40 AM
A lot of the art in indie RPGs is pretty crappy, so the use of AI images can only be beneficial. Obviously, major publishers will never use AI-generated images as long as they can't copyright the art.

There's zero chance that if, for example, Disney wants to start making AI-generated content, that we won't see rulings that protect corporate interests.

On the other hand, AI art could just be a gimmick that will die out in 2-5 years and everyone will have egg on their face

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on May 04, 2023, 06:02:58 PM
On the other hand, AI art could just be a gimmick that will die out in 2-5 years and everyone will have egg on their face

I find that pretty remote.  Like, Anheuser-Busch will have a record profit this year level of remote.   

Quote from: weirdguy564 on May 04, 2023, 06:12:51 PM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on May 04, 2023, 06:02:58 PM
On the other hand, AI art could just be a gimmick that will die out in 2-5 years and everyone will have egg on their face

I find that pretty remote.  Like, Anheuser-Busch will have a record profit this year level of remote.

How often do these hyped-up bandwagons turn out to be successful? The dotcom crash, NFTs, crypto...

I like generating AI art.
I also realize that I can use AI to enhance my own art.
Fro instance: I want to draw something.  I can ask AI to make something that can help me with the composition I'm looking for.   And then I can draw it my way, but with the a lot of the trial and error process simplified.
Because as much as I enjoy making AI pictures, nothing beats the satisfaction of the results of your efforts drawing 40+ NPC for your module.

I did it without AI!
(https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/890643086848430180/1088630609368338503/Freshmen_of_1985_md.jpg)

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on May 04, 2023, 07:56:37 PM

Quote from: weirdguy564 on May 04, 2023, 06:12:51 PM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on May 04, 2023, 06:02:58 PM
On the other hand, AI art could just be a gimmick that will die out in 2-5 years and everyone will have egg on their face

I find that pretty remote.  Like, Anheuser-Busch will have a record profit this year level of remote.

How often do these hyped-up bandwagons turn out to be successful? The dotcom crash, NFTs, crypto...

Self driving cars, flying cars, etc.

At first it's all hype, and then regression to the mean kicks in.

Its generally successful if it works.  AI art isn't some pipe dream that could work. I think we just showed it's already working.  That means it's here to stay. 

How much it gets used is to be seen.  It's got limits.  Still, I'm thinking of using it if I ever write my own RPG. 

I'm going to chalk this one up to my wife's over active imagination, and obsession with all things Harry Potter. 

She was curious, and asked me to type in Mage.Space, "Maggie Smith in armor."   

This is the one and only result.  I'm both impressed, and weirded out by the result. 

Quote from: Zelen on May 04, 2023, 03:31:41 PM

Quote from: Rhymer88 on May 04, 2023, 09:26:40 AM
A lot of the art in indie RPGs is pretty crappy, so the use of AI images can only be beneficial. Obviously, major publishers will never use AI-generated images as long as they can't copyright the art.

There's zero chance that if, for example, Disney wants to start making AI-generated content, that we won't see rulings that protect corporate interests.

Yes, the power of lobbyists can't be discounted in the long run. However, this probably won't happen anytime soon, in part because the upcoming EU regulations look to be very restrictive. One mitigating factor for corporations is that full compliance won't be required of companies until 2025 or later, as the following article points out:

https://www.theverge.com/2023/4/28/23702437/eu-ai-act-disclose-copyright-training-data-report 

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on May 04, 2023, 06:02:58 PM
On the other hand, AI art could just be a gimmick that will die out in 2-5 years and everyone will have egg on their face

It will be an in-between results.

Basically, the current technology build on the work that made facial and voice recognition so successful that they are ubiquitous .... for certain applications.

Like for time clocks for punching into work and phone answering systems.

What the current round does is extend this to generalized video, audio, and text pattern recognition. Its main use is to allow us to do more with the time we have. Basically functioning as an ultimate assistant. But an assistant that is a total idiot in terms of how life works. So to be truly useful folks still need to be in the loop to tweak things and polish up the results. 

For example the barbarian in an earlier post with misaligned leather buckles. 

All of the bad uses mentioned thus far are bullshit, and sometimes illegal things that people do already. Making knockoff works, impersonation with intent to fraud, and so on. The challenge is its ability to extend productivity encompassing doing bad things as well as more normal applications.

But just like we had to adjust to folks in control of two-ton battering rams (cars)  flying around town on roads. We will figure this one out too. For a small taste of what happened in the early 20th century.
https://thereader.mitpress.mit.edu/when-cities-treated-cars-as-dangerous-intruders/

The thing to keep in mind once the initial shock passes, the folks with talent will be able to do far more with their time with this technology. The folks who solely rely on this tech will produce obvious crap riddled with nonsense, hallucinations, and inconsistency.

This tech will also greatly lower the barriers for entry for folks without the capital or connection to pursue traditional methods. The young, marginalized groups, the poor and so on.

But again like the spread of automobiles, we will need to figure out how to deal with this in a way that is fair and equitable.

Quote from: estar on May 05, 2023, 10:04:06 AM


But again like the spread of automobiles, we will need to figure out how to deal with this in a way that is fair and equitable maximimum profitable.

FTFY

Quote from: weirdguy564 on May 04, 2023, 10:01:11 PM
Its generally successful if it works.  AI art isn't some pipe dream that could work. I think we just showed it's already working.  That means it's here to stay. 

How much it gets used is to be seen.  It's got limits.  Still, I'm thinking of using it if I ever write my own RPG.

It works and produces impressive output for easy and simple input. It's going to be everywhere. Things that are easy and cheap to make become ubiquitous and end up being viewed as common and boring. The internet is absolutely filled with photos because they are so easy to create. The first digital photos were marvels. Now, it's so commonplace that only the really good ones get attention.

Imagine if all the internet's photos were free to use. I write a book and fill it with free photos. What's the point of including photos like that? It's background noise.

On the same token, when photography was first invented, people feared it would destroy painting. We still have painting. Creating, viewing, or owning a painting are experiences that cannot be replaced by a photograph. The change the occurred is that painting is much less used for mundane things, like family portraits. The same applies to AI art. It will eat the mundane use of art, but stuff that people pay for and take pride in (as creator or viewer or collector) will remain.

Quote from: rytrasmi on May 05, 2023, 11:01:24 AM

It works and produces impressive output for easy and simple input. It's going to be everywhere.

Hemp. It's a sturdy plant, it can survive everywhere, needs no care, grows fast, you can get more stuff from hemp than a pig, no waste, so damn useful that the previous century somebody patented a car made 100% from hemp, fueled by hemp oil.
Guess what, the plant is banned almost everywhere on the planet. Open and close as many round brackets you need.

Quote from: rytrasmi on May 05, 2023, 11:01:24 AM
when photography was first invented, people feared it would destroy painting. We still have painting. Creating, viewing, or owning a painting are experiences that cannot be replaced by a photograph. The change the occurred is that painting is much less used for mundane things, like family portraits. The same applies to AI art. It will eat the mundane use of art, but stuff that people pay for and take pride in (as creator or viewer or collector) will remain.

WHen cgi animation came around, people thought it would destroy traditional animation.

And it did.  :(

Quote from: Hixanthrope on May 03, 2023, 03:21:42 AM
Has there ever been a greater tool for the indie rpg publisher than AI art? If you are opposed to it, do you understand how it works?
1. AI art uses 0.01% of reference images, generating never before seen things.
2. The line between photoshop effects and image generation is very very blurry.
3. It looks pretty cool.

I'm not opposed to it per se, but I am against terrible AI art like this image you posted. And that is the biggest threat. People with no taste flooding the market with gawdawful images and devaluing the art field.

btw. I'm a pro artist (like M:tG cards, official D&D art, worked for many big studios, not some rando who thinks he's an artist because his mom put his drawings on the fridge) and I'm not particularly for or against it, but my fellow artists are having conniption fits over it. To the point they are filing lawsuits, working with the government to heavily regulate it, organizing protests, and so on.

I made an experimental product illustrated with AI art way back when it first came widely available. As far as I know the first AI illustrated book on DriveThru. https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/401377/Saints-Gods-and-Relics

I have an advantage in that I have the eye to generate and select good AI art and the skill to edit AI images. It could be a way to increase productivity.

Quote from: Thor's Nads on May 06, 2023, 01:39:21 AM

Quote from: Hixanthrope on May 03, 2023, 03:21:42 AM
Has there ever been a greater tool for the indie rpg publisher than AI art? If you are opposed to it, do you understand how it works?
1. AI art uses 0.01% of reference images, generating never before seen things.
2. The line between photoshop effects and image generation is very very blurry.
3. It looks pretty cool.

I'm not opposed to it per se, but I am against terrible AI art like this image you posted. And that is the biggest threat. People with no taste flooding the market with gawdawful images and devaluing the art field.

To play Devil's Advocate here, the market is already full of god awful artists cranking out crap. Search online for an artist to draw your rpg group, and there is plenty of work that looks like a semi-talented child drew it. At least A.I. crap is free, often even shitty artists charge (relatively) a lot.

I appreciate how artists feel, I write well, and A.I. is going to make writers a thing of the past too. All we can do is share a glass, while human creativity has its last days in the sun.

Quote from: Grognard GM on May 06, 2023, 03:11:58 AM
To play Devil's Advocate here, the market is already full of god awful artists cranking out crap. Search online for an artist to draw your rpg group, and there is plenty of work that looks like a semi-talented child drew it. At least A.I. crap is free, often even shitty artists charge (relatively) a lot.

I appreciate how artists feel, I write well, and A.I. is going to make writers a thing of the past too. All we can do is share a glass, while human creativity has its last days in the sun.

ChatGPT is better at generating quality text that can be used in a product, than Midjourney/Stable Diffusion are at creating art that can be used in a product. I occasionally hire freelance writers to help out with projects, I don't feel the need to do that as much now with ChatGPT able to fill in much of the text I need with a little bit of direction and editing.

As for the quality of art, I don't know how anyone can look at what has happened in the field of art over the past 25 years and not be amazed at the incredible increase in the quality of amazing art being generated. M:tG, video games, and CG driven movies created a huge market for fantasy and sci-fi art, and the digital tools have made the average pro artist able to generate fantastic images.

But AI art fools people into thinking it is good art, because it captures much of the surface quality of good art. But look at most AI images for long and they start falling apart.

I'm liking AI art myself.

I do also have some experience doing art myself, but in my case it is for 3D graphics.  I'm getting a lot of requests to do models for 3D printing, which is yet another new tech that is changing the game, sometimes literally. 

Again, awesome images that took no effort to produce.  Emma Watson knight, some evil armored guys, and another Olivia Wilde knight.

Midjourney has re-enabled free acess for a bit if you want ot test it out.. it is very good imo.

Quote from: weirdguy564 on May 06, 2023, 04:26:47 AMI'm liking AI art myself.

I do also have some experience doing art myself, but in my case it is for 3D graphics.  I'm getting a lot of requests to do models for 3D printing, which is yet another new tech that is changing the game, sometimes literally.

3D Meshes are next... papers are coming out in streams. AI Generated 3D Models, or 3D models made from single 2D art will be a HUGE thing.

The more I reflect on it, this all really is about quality. Most AI art is pretty flawed, but it isn't less flawed than most of what humans produce, it's just flawed in a different way. And it will get better. Also, I'm willing to crawl through 1000 images of AI art to find the good pieces in a pile of 90% crap. I'm not willing to pay a human who produces 50% crap.

That's what artists are up in arms about. Most of them aren't very good. They're not terrible, but they're not very good. Not everyone gets to follow their dreams and pursue their passion, most of us need to suck it up and become auto mechanics.

I mentioned DTRPG will soon be flooded by AI.

Just noticed DMS Guild is ALREADY doing that.

Which is odd, since publishing there allows you to use WotC art.

This is todays bestseller under $5. (MJ + Photoshop)

If you have played CoS, I think you`ll like he image - I did.

Come to think of it, maybe one could a quick buck there... The bar for both 5e and AI is not high...

(https://d1vzi28wh99zvq.cloudfront.net/images/8957/436386.jpg)

Quote from: Eric Diaz on May 06, 2023, 01:22:19 PM
I mentioned DTRPG will soon be flooded by AI.

Just noticed DMS Guild is ALREADY doing that.

Which is odd, since publishing there allows you to use WotC art.

This is todays bestseller under $5. (MJ + Photoshop)

If you have played CoS, I think you`ll like he image - I did.

Come to think of it, maybe one could a quick buck there... The bar for both 5e and AI is not high...

(https://d1vzi28wh99zvq.cloudfront.net/images/8957/436386.jpg)

That looks damn good for AI art considering the hands look natural.

Quote from: THE_Leopold on May 06, 2023, 02:20:50 PMThat looks damn good for AI art considering the hands look natural.

hands are basically fixed... but behind the version 5 paywall.

Quote from: Eric Diaz on May 06, 2023, 01:22:19 PM

Come to think of it, maybe one could a quick buck there... The bar for both 5e and AI is not high...

written by chapGPT based on a one paragraph description of a planet from my home game. Illustrated by DALL-E. I spent about 10 minutes throwing it together in indesign. the prompts for art come from the text, pasted as-is into bing image creator, never more than one pass on the art, the text is not edited. includes pre-gens and monster statblocks. For BRP.

Quote from: Hixanthrope on May 06, 2023, 02:44:39 PM

Quote from: Eric Diaz on May 06, 2023, 01:22:19 PM

Come to think of it, maybe one could a quick buck there... The bar for both 5e and AI is not high...

written by chapGPT based on a one paragraph description of a planet from my home game. Illustrated by DALL-E. I spent about 10 minutes throwing it together in indesign. the prompts for art come from the text, pasted as-is into bing image creator, never more than one pass on the art, the text is not edited. includes pre-gens and monster statblocks. For BRP.

Yeah, with some editing this could become an actual module.

I've tried using chatgpt to write stuff and given up because it always gives me banal nonspecific results that I could easily do without it.

Quote from: Hixanthrope on May 06, 2023, 02:44:39 PM

Quote from: Eric Diaz on May 06, 2023, 01:22:19 PM

Come to think of it, maybe one could a quick buck there... The bar for both 5e and AI is not high...

written by chapGPT based on a one paragraph description of a planet from my home game. Illustrated by DALL-E. I spent about 10 minutes throwing it together in indesign. the prompts for art come from the text, pasted as-is into bing image creator, never more than one pass on the art, the text is not edited. includes pre-gens and monster statblocks. For BRP.

This would require the level of editing requiring a complete rewrite.

Yeah, ChatGPT can follow a pattern of writing but it does not understand how to make an adventure fun.

Quote from: jeff37923 on May 06, 2023, 05:18:37 PMYeah, ChatGPT can follow a pattern of writing but it does not understand how to make an adventure fun.

You could say that about an unfortunate amount of GM's and game writers.

just found out about Leonardo.Ai it is really cool imo... one of the things it dose is allow you to save backgroundless images... so the subject is cut out with a alpha.. making integration into other assets easier. Also you can train your own datasets of images. Like say you draw 15 drawings, it uses that data set to make more in that style. Fascinating new system... worth a look.

Also you can use two prompts.. one is the input prompt and the other is a DO NOT DO prompt. So... P:sunset over ocean and then DONOT: two suns (as often AI will show 2 suns at the moment for some reason)

(https://i.postimg.cc/rKhQ4LsC/RPG-40-Young-Dragon-on-females-shoulderrainbow-hair-line-art-w-0.jpg) (https://i.postimg.cc/mg4q0LGq/RPG-40-Young-Dragon-on-females-shoulderrainbow-hair-line-art-w-0.jpg)
P: Water Colour Wash, Dragon Aura, Female Sorcerer, Rainbow Hair, Ethereal Background, high detail, colourful.
NO: Full Body Dragon, Legs, hands

Quote from: jeff37923 on May 06, 2023, 05:18:37 PMYeah, ChatGPT can follow a pattern of writing but it does not understand how to make an adventure fun.

yeah but that is true of any tool. You can literally make award winning indie films on your phone and some cheap lapel mics. People still need drive and talent to do it. Same for anything.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on May 06, 2023, 04:13:57 PM
I've tried using chatgpt to write stuff and given up because it always gives me banal nonspecific results that I could easily do without it.

SAME HERE!

Quote from: Grognard GM on May 06, 2023, 07:23:47 PM

Quote from: jeff37923 on May 06, 2023, 05:18:37 PMYeah, ChatGPT can follow a pattern of writing but it does not understand how to make an adventure fun.

You could say that about an unfortunate amount of GM's and game writers.

Yes you could.  So there is no reason to automate what they produce, so as to produce it even faster.

Quote from: Cathode Ray on May 07, 2023, 07:05:38 AM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on May 06, 2023, 04:13:57 PM
I've tried using chatgpt to write stuff and given up because it always gives me banal nonspecific results that I could easily do without it.

SAME HERE!

I don't know how you are using it but I've found it to be one of the greatest creative idea generators I've ever used.  I've designed multiple adventures going from ocean going to ancient city all with ChatGPT.  Crafting your prompts to get the "right" answers you are looking for can be a bit of a learning curve. Talking to it like a human being is the path to failure. Talking to it like an Idiot Child I find the results are better.


MidJourney has certain "forbidden" terms that you can appeal if it say "Oh that's a Naughty word!".  I ran into this multiple times with permutations of "god of blood" or "evil god of blood" or "skin of <anything>".   You hit the "That's bullshit this is fine" button and every appeal I won and my image was generated. It really does not want you to make pictures of "God" or something.

ChatGPT routinely hallucinates and gives me bizarre outputs too.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on May 07, 2023, 10:37:01 AM
ChatGPT routinely hallucinates and gives me bizarre outputs too.

Some real live GM's do the same.

Quote from: weirdguy564 on May 08, 2023, 12:26:07 PM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on May 07, 2023, 10:37:01 AM
ChatGPT routinely hallucinates and gives me bizarre outputs too.

Some real live GM's do the same.

That's becoming you haven't upgraded their operating system. ;D

I recommend uninstalling the WotC OS and replacing it with something less likely to result in nonsense.

Quote from: ponta1010 on May 03, 2023, 04:48:38 AM
Is this asked with a straight face or are you being sarcastic?

'Cos after I looked at the art - the distorted coins and the dragon wing that seems to extend from the ridgeline of the beast's neck, I wasn't too sure.

I actually thought the sword was the weirdest looking thing. Take a close look.

Quote from: Grognard GM on May 06, 2023, 07:23:47 PM

Quote from: jeff37923 on May 06, 2023, 05:18:37 PMYeah, ChatGPT can follow a pattern of writing but it does not understand how to make an adventure fun.

You could say that about an unfortunate amount of GM's and game writers.

Yes, but they at least have the potential to learn while a computer program does not.

Quote from: jeff37923 on May 08, 2023, 07:18:34 PM
Yes, but they at least have the potential to learn while a computer program does not.

I can train an ai art program to draw in a certain style, let's say my own style, by feeding it reference images. It will then reliably produce images in that style. Is that not learning?

Quote from: Hixanthrope on May 08, 2023, 08:18:18 PM

Quote from: jeff37923 on May 08, 2023, 07:18:34 PM
Yes, but they at least have the potential to learn while a computer program does not.

I can train an ai art program to draw in a certain style, let's say my own style, by feeding it reference images. It will then reliably produce images in that style. Is that not learning?

LOL.

What I find funny is all the artist saying training AIs with art is stealing. But artists train themselves by copying other artists, to learn the technique, all the time. Some of the "masters" like Degas are renowned for learning by copying other's works. (Some "modern" schools eschew the copying thing, but it is a long standing method.)

Kind of a neat history of copying here: https://www.sothebys.com/en/articles/10-questions-and-answers-about-old-master-copies (https://www.sothebys.com/en/articles/10-questions-and-answers-about-old-master-copies)

That's all nice, but what about asking the AI to draw Conan.  I think it nailed it.

Conan begins to slay.

Bart starts slaying.

Conan: "Sit perfectly still. Only I may slay."

I've noticed midjourny and leanardo both have real issues drawing bows on things.

Quote from: Tod13 on May 08, 2023, 08:25:14 PM

Quote from: Hixanthrope on May 08, 2023, 08:18:18 PM

Quote from: jeff37923 on May 08, 2023, 07:18:34 PM
Yes, but they at least have the potential to learn while a computer program does not.

I can train an ai art program to draw in a certain style, let's say my own style, by feeding it reference images. It will then reliably produce images in that style. Is that not learning?

LOL.

What I find funny is all the artist saying training AIs with art is stealing. But artists train themselves by copying other artists, to learn the technique, all the time. Some of the "masters" like Degas are renowned for learning by copying other's works. (Some "modern" schools eschew the copying thing, but it is a long standing method.)

Kind of a neat history of copying here: https://www.sothebys.com/en/articles/10-questions-and-answers-about-old-master-copies (https://www.sothebys.com/en/articles/10-questions-and-answers-about-old-master-copies)

The thing is, AI is driving real artists out of business because it can instantly churn out loads of serviceable images. Human artists cannot do that, so artists aren't offended when other artists learn from them. AI is being used to create imitations that drive the original artist out of business and discourage people from ever picking up art as a skill.

Furthermore, AI is parasitic due to its lack of true intelligence. It will never invent new styles because it cannot think. It needs human artists to learn from, but if it drives them out of business then it will be left with nothing new to learn except for its own output, which will likely lead it into a garbage loop or other undesirable stagnation.

Becoming dependent on algorithms is a recipe for disaster. Multiple studies have already shown that overreliance on algorithms leads to users becoming less competent at their jobs.

Frank Herbert warned us about this in his books back in the 60s, 70s and 80s. The danger of machines wasn't that they would arbitrarily decide to rebel and kill us, but that they would remove our thinking, allow other men with machines to enslave us, and ultimately destroy us because they were too good at the jobs they were designed for (one of the apocalypses Leto II averted was a paperclip maximizer before that was a thought experiment).

If you saw two books, and one had a sticker on it saying something like "No AI Inside" or something... would you buy that over a book with no declaration?

Well, AI art isn't copyrightable. That makes it poison to corpos. Of course, how exactly do you prove something was or wasn't made by an AI? You'd need to record the creative process as evidence to bring to court.

If I needed art fast and didn't have the budget for a human artist, then yes I'd resort to AI art as placeholders and I would label it as AI art.

The main problem with human artists is that there isn't any good service at the moment for finding artists with the precise parameters you require. If I need someone who can do... idk... Sugimori-style art for fake pokemon, then I have to spend hours trawling deviantart for artists who do Sugimori-style fakemon, do so at a particular skill level, have commission slots open, and are within my budget.

AI art generators massively cut down on the time necessary to find the kind of art you're looking for. The main limitation is that they lack precision. You can't ask the AI to do precise alterations or go through the concepting process that you can go through with a human artist. The AI isn't as creative as a human artist because it cannot think outside of what it's been trained on. It doesn't even understand what it's doing. It draws cars with four wheels because it's been trained to do that, not because it knows that a car with less wheels would tip over like a human being would know.

So if you ask an AI to do Beksinki or Giger art, then it vomits useless garbage that is utterly devoid of the qualities that make the real thing so compellingly freakish. Also, the AIs are censored by their creators when a key aspect of Beksinki and Giger art is that it's NSFW, involving copious amounts of death and sexuality. The AI doesn't understand reality or humanity, so it cannot subvert that like the surrealists can. You can tell that an AI doesn't really understand what it's doing, whereas Beksinski/Giger art only works because you can tell the artist understands reality and is deliberately twisting it for creative effect.

But AI can churn out legions of soulless interchangeable anime girl waifus like there's no tomorrow.

I'm guessing that some enterprising artist will train an AI to draw in his own style, make corrections as needed, and be able to churn out significantly more work than he was able to before.  I see a real benefit to this, especially in the RPG world where the ability to produce a large amount of consistent work is a real benefit. 

Quote from: Grognard GM on May 08, 2023, 10:09:29 PM
Conan begins to slay.

Bart starts slaying.

Conan: "Sit perfectly still. Only I may slay."

Look up Harry Spotter on youtube. it's quite amazing.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on May 09, 2023, 09:38:43 AM
It will never invent new styles

This ain't the butlerian jihad, it's an image manipulation program that uses processes that are very similar to Photoshop Actions. The most interesting things about AI art are the way that human artists can use these tools to do really cool stuff like this, I've linked the reddit post because the workflow is explained there in the comments. The good stuff doesn't come from a single button press.
https://www.reddit.com/r/StableDiffusion/comments/13cz4cq/from_a_simple_prompt_and_delayed_controllnet/

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on May 09, 2023, 09:38:43 AM

Quote from: Tod13 on May 08, 2023, 08:25:14 PM

Quote from: Hixanthrope on May 08, 2023, 08:18:18 PM

Quote from: jeff37923 on May 08, 2023, 07:18:34 PM
Yes, but they at least have the potential to learn while a computer program does not.

I can train an ai art program to draw in a certain style, let's say my own style, by feeding it reference images. It will then reliably produce images in that style. Is that not learning?

LOL.

What I find funny is all the artist saying training AIs with art is stealing. But artists train themselves by copying other artists, to learn the technique, all the time. Some of the "masters" like Degas are renowned for learning by copying other's works. (Some "modern" schools eschew the copying thing, but it is a long standing method.)

Kind of a neat history of copying here: https://www.sothebys.com/en/articles/10-questions-and-answers-about-old-master-copies (https://www.sothebys.com/en/articles/10-questions-and-answers-about-old-master-copies)

The thing is, AI is driving real artists out of business because it can instantly churn out loads of serviceable images. Human artists cannot do that, so artists aren't offended when other artists learn from them. AI is being used to create imitations that drive the original artist out of business and discourage people from ever picking up art as a skill.

Furthermore, AI is parasitic due to its lack of true intelligence. It will never invent new styles because it cannot think. It needs human artists to learn from, but if it drives them out of business then it will be left with nothing new to learn except for its own output, which will likely lead it into a garbage loop or other undesirable stagnation.

Becoming dependent on algorithms is a recipe for disaster. Multiple studies have already shown that overreliance on algorithms leads to users becoming less competent at their jobs.

Frank Herbert warned us about this in his books back in the 60s, 70s and 80s. The danger of machines wasn't that they would arbitrarily decide to rebel and kill us, but that they would remove our thinking, allow other men with machines to enslave us, and ultimately destroy us because they were too good at the jobs they were designed for (one of the apocalypses Leto II averted was a paperclip maximizer before that was a thought experiment).

It's making artists upset. That's it. I've looked for real artists to use professionally. Most aren't interested - see my post earlier. (The really expensive ones have work, but we can't afford $5000-10,000 per piece.) You can't blame it on AI when people that want to hire can't find artists with a willingness to do business.

And cite needed on the supposed algorithms making you less competent statement. I can state, also without citing the studies, that I've heard the exact opposite for software developers. Basically, you use the GitHub AI to make searching for code that already exists more effective. I'd prefer something that gives me the code AND a link to StackOverflow that explains the code, since often the most used code is a hack or otherwise undesirable.

Eh... it is all fun and games for us writers until next year, when artists can replace us for ChatGTP version X.

Technology is inevitable, but I don't think we should be too quick to do away with artists, they add a lot to our hobby.

Quote from: Eric Diaz on May 09, 2023, 02:10:48 PM
Eh... it is all fun and games for us writers until next year, when artists can replace us for ChatGTP version X.
Technology is inevitable, but I don't think we should be too quick to do away with artists, they add a lot to our hobby.

We're writers. We see it, dispassionately, as something that may someday be an issue. But not insanely as a mortal threat or something that needs to be handled by legislation.

And we don't want to get rid of artists. We tried to find in vain to find one to hire. And could not. But if someone makes the barrier to hiring you so high as to be an issue, then they shouldn't blame other things when nobody hires them.

I'm actually hopeful that AI will disrupt publishing enough to create a better filtering and publication process. Right now, everything is stuck on Amazon or through the big 3-5 publishers. And finding decent product is excessively difficult. AI allows the scammers to leverage that market issue. Markets correct, if allowed to do so.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on May 09, 2023, 09:38:43 AM
The thing is, AI is driving real artists out of business because it can instantly churn out loads of serviceable images.

And? What is the basic principle here? That a piece of technology should be banned/controlled/restricted because it could put people out of work?

There was a time before the printing press that all books were copied by hand. The first printing press demolished that profession in a short amount of time.

Or more relevant requiring businesses and the phone companies to hire back all operators that they got rid of because they adopted ai based (previous generation) voice recognition and speech synthesis software.

Where is your criticism then when that happened a decade or so ago?

A better view is that artists could learn how to use the new technology to in order to become more versatile and productive. Because it is clear at this point that this technology zero ability to reason out proper context means that produce anything good or a tailored work that more than "good enough" requires a human artist in the loop.

Plus unlike operators, being an artist is a skill that can't be easily trained in a two week orientation. The same with writing. Because of this, the evolution of this technology will be towards keeping humans in the creative loop.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on May 09, 2023, 09:38:43 AMHuman artists cannot do that, so artists aren't offended when other artists learn from them. 

Oh? Artists from low-wage countries are used in sweatshops to produce copyrighted or more commonly knock-off works all the time.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on May 09, 2023, 09:38:43 AM
AI is being used to create imitations that drive the original artist out of business and discourage people from ever picking up art as a skill.

What about individuals who lack fine motor skills who have an excellent sense of composition and form. Or an artist who suffered a disease or accident that killed their fine motor coordination but left the rest of their skills intact?

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on May 09, 2023, 09:38:43 AM
Furthermore, AI is parasitic due to its lack of true intelligence. It will never invent new styles because it cannot think. It needs human artists to learn from, but if it drives them out of business then it will be left with nothing new to learn except for its own output, which will likely lead it into a garbage loop or other undesirable stagnation.

It exposes how much of what we do as humans is repetitive repeatable patterns. But a key point of your thesis is true, that AI is only pattern recognition and thus like a RPG random table is incapable of creating something new.

This is why the ultimate use of this technology will be a tool to help skilled human do more with the time they have. And like the manuscript copyists of old those who do not learn this technology will be relegated to a niche of a greatly expanded creative field. However manuscript copying didn't die out. Instead it became a deliberate creative choice and continues to thrive to the present as a niche.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on May 09, 2023, 09:38:43 AM
Becoming dependent on algorithms is a recipe for disaster. Multiple studies have already shown that overreliance on algorithms leads to users becoming less competent at their jobs.

Having dealt with industrial automation for four decades, what those studies illustrate this the fact that these technologies doesn't replace the need for a skilled human but allow a skilled human to more with the time they have.

When I started out in the last 80s the metal cutting machines I created software and electronics for were not just better they were at least two orders of magnitude better. The software I wrote was for making metal patterns to be cut. By the late 90s when the older skill workers who used to make these pattern were retiring more than a few shop tried to replace them with a novice with no training who just punched in the numbers.

Well that didn't work out so well and by the 2010s that has become a rarity as my industry realized how stupid that was. Most shops have a skilled and trained operator using our software to create jobs to be cut. And they can do 100 times what the old generation could do.

Most shops when using our machine for the fire time, didn't fire their skilled employees, instead they took on more business and as the amount of work they could handle grew.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on May 09, 2023, 09:38:43 AM
Frank Herbert warned us about this in his books back in the 60s, 70s and 80s. The danger of machines wasn't that they would arbitrarily decide to rebel and kill us, but that they would remove our thinking, allow other men with machines to enslave us, and ultimately destroy us because they were too good at the jobs they were designed for (one of the apocalypses Leto II averted was a paperclip maximizer before that was a thought experiment).

As much of a creative genius Frank Herbert was, he didn't work with this type of technology day in and day out. I have, and what happens is that people who are able to think for themselves and learn how to use this new technology are the one that come out ahead in the long run. That this is something that happens over a generation until the ramifications and limitations sink in. Then people quit trying to make the new stuff do things that it is not capable of.

Finally, this is not something that can be banned. Sure specific software can be banned/controlled like ChatGPT. But now that the basic process is well understood, anybody with enough time can put together a similar system using just public domain resources.

Quote from: Eric Diaz on May 09, 2023, 02:10:48 PM
Eh... it is all fun and games for us writers until next year, when artists can replace us for ChatGTP version X.

Fine by me, I think a lot of artists have enough writing talent that if they had a competent assistant they could make a go of it. Just like some of us writer know enough about drawing and composition to make a go of it if we had a competent art assistant.

Quote from: Eric Diaz on May 09, 2023, 02:10:48 PM
Technology is inevitable, but I don't think we should be too quick to do away with artists, they add a lot to our hobby.

As I stated far more verbosely in my previous post. For unskilled professions, these technologies tend to replace people doing the job. For skilled professions, these technologies keep humans in the loop allowing them to do more with the time they have.

I wouldn't count artist out yet. Also, there are still manuscript copyists doing their thing.

I certainly hope you're right

So, let me try to be clearer.

I don't mean to imply legislation is needed or desirable, on the contrary: any legislation on the matter will be used by Disney etc. against indies, as always.

I think my main concern (other than government) is that AI is great at generating drivel and there are enough people that will buy drivel to not only put artists into unemployment but also decreasing the amount of quality/taste in our products.

I am not sure what kind of artist you're looking for... OOH there are so many out there, I could give you a contact or two, OTOH I know AI is just cheaper and easier.

But an actual artist has talents that might influence the quality of your product - if not the number of sales.

Also, I agree there are artists that do not need writers (and they had an unfair advantage over us until now, lol... JK). But chatGPT + a decent writer would be better than ChatGPT alone, as MJ + artist, etc.

AI could bring utopia if we play our cards right, but I`m not very optimistic.

A big issue I see with the current generation of AI is an easy way of training them on a custom data set. I am continually frustrated when I use ChatGPT or Bard as uber random table by their inability to remember my own work that I copied in beyond a certain point.

More than my own convenience, I consider this a severe problem for allowing indies to compete on the same playing field as bigger outfits. Because the current methods of teaching AI are labor-intensive. This means folks who can marshal the labor like Disney, etc. will have an advantage in using these technologies.

Imagine a company with a catalog like Chaosium or Columbia Games could feed the corpus of Glorantha or Harn in and use it as the ultimate random table for each of these settings. Or use it as a tool to manage the vast amount of details found in these settings. Finding underlying patterns that in the hands of a skilled writer could lead to interesting supplements or adventures.

Dune increasingly looks like the best-case scenario for humanity.

Quote from: Summon666 on May 09, 2023, 09:42:13 AM
If you saw two books, and one had a sticker on it saying something like "No AI Inside" or something... would you buy that over a book with no declaration?

Yes.

Quote from: jeff37923 on May 09, 2023, 06:33:49 PM

Quote from: Summon666 on May 09, 2023, 09:42:13 AMIf you saw two books, and one had a sticker on it saying something like "No AI Inside" or something... would you buy that over a book with no declaration?

Yes.

I think so as well. It wouldn't surprise me if you start to see things like that on books. I suspect it would appeal. We might end up with something like the parent advisory label but about if it is AI or not.

Horrifying AI generated film. No input but a text prompt.
https://vimeo.com/824766880

This tech will eventually be like special effects in the 80s compared to 2023. Last Starfighter -> Avatar2

Quote from: Summon666 on May 10, 2023, 05:14:19 AM
Horrifying AI generated film. No input but a text prompt.
https://vimeo.com/824766880

This tech will eventually be like special effects in the 80s compared to 2023. Last Starfighter -> Avatar2

Dude, what do you expect? AI art and writing programs literally take their input and drop it into a blender before hitting puree. Getting an output that isn't the least common denominator of the subject matter would be a miracle. You want bland commercialized art or writing? This is how you get bland commercialized art or writing.

um.. I do not think you understood my post above... try reading it again.

Well, this is the bright side: everyone who wants to make a quick buck now will see their stuff become obsolete in a few months, when no one will want to by AI art with messed up hands and fingers.

AI art has gotten really advanced. It's now replacing artists in China. https://www.gamedeveloper.com/art/china-s-game-art-industry-reportedly-decimated-ai-art-use

I prefer real artists because of the back and forth. Unfortunately it's very tedious to find artists who match my parameters and have free commissions slots. There isn't any matchmaking services that automate this process. Sometimes they just flake on me without explanation.

Quote from: Tod13 on May 09, 2023, 02:16:02 PM
We're writers. We see it, dispassionately, as something that may someday be an issue. But not insanely as a mortal threat or something that needs to be handled by legislation.

Let's forget artists and writers for a minute and contemplate how this may in fact be a mortal threat to the hobby itself.

One of the main advantages that tabletop had over video games was the infinite flexibility of a GM compared to the likes of Skyrim and Witcher III. What happens to us when AI generation turbo-charges video game RPG content? It won't have to be infinitely flexible to lure away 90% of the player base, just close enough.

Who will buy these AI-written RPG books illustrated with AI art when everyone's in AI World of Warcraft?

Quote from: Shipyard Locked on May 11, 2023, 09:50:55 AM
Let's forget artists and writers for a minute and contemplate how this may in fact be a mortal threat to the hobby itself.

One of the main advantages that tabletop had over video games was the infinite flexibility of a GM compared to the likes of Skyrim and Witcher III. What happens to us when AI generation turbo-charges video game RPG content? It won't have to be infinitely flexible to lure away 90% of the player base, just close enough.

Who will buy these AI-written RPG books illustrated with AI art when everyone's in AI World of Warcraft?

It's the honeymoon phase so people are blind to the flaws of AI. The flaws are starting to show themselves and will become more and more apparent as people use these tools.

ChatGPT for example is a chat bot. How many people do you think are sitting there actually chatting with it? Three? Five? Nobody is using it for chat. Humans continue to chat with other humans. Chat bots have always been a novelty item and ChatGPT happens to be a very good chat bot. Will people suddenly want to talk with a chat bot when it's dressed up as an NPC? Initially for the novelty, yeah, but the novelty will wear off.

Chess is another example. AI is used by humans to practice and there are AI-vs-AI matches, but people tend to care about the human players nor the AIs. The human vs human game is still king, even 25+ years after Deep Blue beat Kasparov. And chess is more popular than ever.

If the TTPRG scene loses some casuals who prefer to talk to machines, okay bye!

Quote from: Shipyard Locked on May 11, 2023, 09:50:55 AM

Quote
a mortal threat to the hobby itself.

You can, right now, pay a published adventure writer to run a game on a virtual tabletop where you are largely a passive observer of a story.
There are games where you play pregnant waitresses on a smoke break.
Virtue-signaling games have made lots of money.

But there are still groups meeting in basements with pencil and paper and imagination, playing games in way that those guys always have.
Let em have their pixels, it'll never replace face to face, immersive, smell-your-farts gaming.

I spent 4-6 hours casually creating a dozen pieces of art that are better than something WOTC puts out with all the bells and whistles that I would need to publish the book and have it look amazing.  this would cost me in the realm of $500/piece for the color and detail that I spent $30/mo on. $6000 vs $30.  For my niche product that will net me dozens of dollars I'd have to be insane to spend that money on art when I can spend it on layout instead which is vastly more work and time consuming.


What I may have to do is have an artist touch up the pictures, add a few things here and there which may cost me as much to detail 12 pictures as it would to have one picture created.  All fully licensed and approved under the Midjourney CC license.


The evolution of art generation has reduced my neeed for spending a fortune and managing people who are notoriously flakey with a work ethic that rivals homeless people.  I've met 1 artist in all my years that puts out product on time and on budget. He was expensive but his work was worth it.


I will NEVER put a tagline like this in my product EVER:
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/437457/Heroes-of-the-Blade

QuoteDAI'd makes use of AI for generation of content including art. We strive to make the most responsible use of AI alongside human human writing, editing, and design, to make the best use of both.

That's pandering at it's highest level.

Quote from: Summon666 on May 10, 2023, 05:14:19 AM
Horrifying AI generated film. No input but a text prompt.
https://vimeo.com/824766880

This tech will eventually be like special effects in the 80s compared to 2023. Last Starfighter -> Avatar2

Please for the love of God everyone keep David Lynch as far away from this technology as possible!

Quote from: ThatChrisGuy on May 11, 2023, 04:18:27 PM

Quote from: Summon666 on May 10, 2023, 05:14:19 AM
Horrifying AI generated film. No input but a text prompt.
https://vimeo.com/824766880

This tech will eventually be like special effects in the 80s compared to 2023. Last Starfighter -> Avatar2

Please for the love of God everyone keep David Lynch as far away from this technology as possible!

H.R. Giger.

I just published a book called Beasties: Loathsome Horrors.

The "Loathsome Horrors" name being my initial feelings as an artist about AI art. I used it as a way to deal with what could lead to the end of art as a lucrative professional career. Art directors will be reduced to curators, and low wage workers will be hired to run prompts.

The book actually came out pretty good IMHO.

(https://www.drivethrurpg.com/images/6385/436818.jpg)

https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/436818/Beasties-Loathsome-Horrors (https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/436818/Beasties-Loathsome-Horrors)

did you do that art? Zombie Kitty.... dat cool!

Or is this AI stuff?

Greetings!

I love good art, and I appreciate talented artists.

However, I am also an entrepreneur, making efforts to launch my own company. Part of that includes seeking to hire professional or at least talented artists.

I'm sorry to say, AI art will absolutely devour and destroy artists. They are fucking done. Honestly, it isn't much of a loss. I'm sure the really elite artists will still do their thing, and they will be fine. I hope so! However, for all of the absolute LEGIONS of lazy, phony fucking twits that have the work ethic and courtesy of snails, or the pretentious elite entitlement that they *deserve* $500 dollars or more for a fucking drawing of an Orc or an Elephant Beastman, they can go get a job shoveling French Fries at McDonalds.

AI can do anything they can do at 95% efficiency and quality in *minutes*. Right now. Wen I want it, on my fucking schedule. Not waiting weeks and weeks for a fucking email, not bouncing back and forth for their fucking commissions, or their fucking schedules, whaa, whaa, whaa. Fuck them. And that's not even being certain that they even have the skill to do what you want, the right style, or if what you want is what they are deigned to be sufficiently interested in doing. I'm sorry. It is entirely too much ego, too much entitlement, and too much fuckery.

I have not been happy trying to deal with fucking "artists" in my efforts to gain suitable artwork. It has been an endless fucking train of disappointment, excuses, and sky-high expectations and entitlement.

Technology will make 85% of these artists get jobs shoveling French Fries. It won't be a loss because someone with moderate skill in dealing with the computers and AI programs can whip up what you want for a book or game in *minutes*--and when I WANT IT, ON MY SCHEDULE. The endless hassle alone in dealing with artists and the entire way in which they seek to promote and conduct business means that it will be an absolute victory for AI art to sweep them all away into something else entirely. Commercially, as a consumer, and a business, as a customer, that is all great. Most of these artists are fucking clowns. They have little sense of respect or value for the customer's time, money, and their schedule.

Technology moves along, and periodically, makes dramatic changes to entire businesses. Buggy whips? GONE. Typewriters? GONE. Telephone Operators? GONE. All of these industries were replaced or entirely transformed by technology and systems that simply made the work they performed obsolete, or entirely unnecessary. Printing is another industry that has been totally transformed by technology. It used to be far more labour intensive, and used a whole structure of machines and systems that are gone now, entirely. It sucked for the people involved, certainly. But for everyone else, it has been a huge improvement, a huge cost-reduction, and, much more efficient in every way for individual customers and businesses alike. That is the way technology goes.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: Summon666 on May 12, 2023, 04:56:27 AM
did you do that art? Zombie Kitty.... dat cool!

Or is this AI stuff?

It is not either/or.

I spent countless hours perfecting my "prompting" skills, doing a lot of research, and then generating 1000's of images (literally I've racked up over 46,041 Jobs on Midjourney to date, and many more on Stable Diffusion). Then I curated the images to get it down to the best ones. Then post-processed them using Gigapixel to uprez them, and then spent hours on each one in Photoshop using my traditional art skills to take them to a finish level and get rid of as much of the weird AI artifacts as I can.

It is not an eazy-peazy solution. It is still a lot of work! And I use my art training to have an eye for what works.

Yes. This tech is going to change commercial illustrator's careers permanently. Some will adapt and survive (which is what I'm trying to do). Others will go shovel fries at McDonalds, as @SHARK put it.

Quote from: Thor's Nads on May 12, 2023, 08:36:08 PM

Quote from: Summon666 on May 12, 2023, 04:56:27 AM
did you do that art? Zombie Kitty.... dat cool!

Or is this AI stuff?

It is not either/or.

I spent countless hours perfecting my "prompting" skills, doing a lot of research, and then generating 1000's of images (literally I've racked up over 46,041 Jobs on Midjourney to date, and many more on Stable Diffusion). Then I curated the images to get it down to the best ones. Then post-processed them using Gigapixel to uprez them, and then spent hours on each one in Photoshop using my traditional art skills to take them to a finish level and get rid of as much of the weird AI artifacts as I can.

It is not an eazy-peazy solution. It is still a lot of work! And I use my art training to have an eye for what works.

Yes. This tech is going to change commercial illustrator's careers permanently. Some will adapt and survive (which is what I'm trying to do). Others will go shovel fries at McDonalds, as @SHARK put it.

Greetings!

Thor's Nads! *Laughing*--I really do wish YOU the best of success, and I hope you manage to use your art skills and embrace the technology to continue as an artist. I love art, and I think good artists have genuine talent and gifts.

I hope you can appreciate the spirit of my rant and commentary. I assure you, it is based on real experiences I have endured with artists, sad to say.

Again, I wish you all the best.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: SHARK on May 12, 2023, 08:50:57 PM
I hope you can appreciate the spirit of my rant and commentary. I assure you, it is based on real experiences I have endured with artists, sad to say.
Again, I wish you all the best.

I know how flaky artists can be because I've been a flaky artist! It's not so much laziness (though it is sometimes), for some reason it is hard to make art other people ask you to do. Imagine someone tells you about a dream they had, then ask you to draw it. No matter what you do it will not match their dream. Though some illustrators are good at it. I was mediocre, but when I'm motivated I can do something pretty good.

Thanks.

Quote from: Thor's Nads on May 13, 2023, 02:47:56 AM

Quote from: SHARK on May 12, 2023, 08:50:57 PM
I hope you can appreciate the spirit of my rant and commentary. I assure you, it is based on real experiences I have endured with artists, sad to say.
Again, I wish you all the best.

I know how flaky artists can be because I've been a flaky artist! It's not so much laziness (though it is sometimes), for some reason it is hard to make art other people ask you to do. Imagine someone tells you about a dream they had, then ask you to draw it. No matter what you do it will not match their dream. Though some illustrators are good at it. I was mediocre, but when I'm motivated I can do something pretty good.

Thanks.

which is 100% where AI art comes in.  Instead of a nebulous concept you have a "I like this picture but make the sword bigger and give him green eyes and a horn on his head". A world where 95% of the work is done and now it's a matter of curation instead of invention.

Or people could learn to draw their dreams, but I suppose that's asking too much of humanity.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on May 13, 2023, 09:22:29 AM
Or people could learn to draw their dreams, but I suppose that's asking too much of humanity.

Stupid assholes, not being born with artistic talent.

No, one can not simply learn to draw, at least not to the level people are discussing here. Don't be a troll.

Quote from: Grognard GM on May 13, 2023, 11:48:31 AM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on May 13, 2023, 09:22:29 AM
Or people could learn to draw their dreams, but I suppose that's asking too much of humanity.

Stupid assholes, not being born with artistic talent.
No, one can not simply learn to draw, at least not to the level people are discussing here. Don't be a troll.

Thanks Grognard GM. I understand why so many forums added "likes", since that's what is really needed for your post.

LIKE!

I would love to be able to get a brain implant that downloads artistic skill into my mind. Unfortunately, I suspect that by time such tech is viable, nobody will remember what artistic skills are.

What I find frustrating is that his whole debacle has led to countless amazing artists nuking their public online galleries and depriving us of their art forever. I hate that. There are so many amazing unique art pieces that I only vaguely remember which are now gone forever. Work that AI cannot replicate and probably never will.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on May 13, 2023, 12:53:31 PM
I would love to be able to get a brain implant that downloads artistic skill into my mind. Unfortunately, I suspect that by time such tech is viable, nobody will remember what artistic skills are.

What I find frustrating is that his whole debacle has led to countless amazing artists nuking their public online galleries and depriving us of their art forever. I hate that. There are so many amazing unique art pieces that I only vaguely remember which are now gone forever. Work that AI cannot replicate and probably never will.

Those are the same people who grew up on the playground and literally took their ball and went home.   All they are doing is hurting themsleves and their artisitic repitoire of talent and works.

Their void will be filled and then they too will be forgotten because their pride got in the way of progress.

The people that think A.I. won't be able to make amazing original art in a few years, are the same ones that thought cars, planes, and home computers were fads that wouldn't catch on. I barely know anything about it, but I've seen the improvements in a shockingly short space of time.

Again, not cheerleading for the technology, just being realistic. Lots of "I don't like it so it must not really be game changing" copium.

Quote from: THE_Leopold on May 13, 2023, 01:05:12 PM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on May 13, 2023, 12:53:31 PM
I would love to be able to get a brain implant that downloads artistic skill into my mind. Unfortunately, I suspect that by time such tech is viable, nobody will remember what artistic skills are.

What I find frustrating is that his whole debacle has led to countless amazing artists nuking their public online galleries and depriving us of their art forever. I hate that. There are so many amazing unique art pieces that I only vaguely remember which are now gone forever. Work that AI cannot replicate and probably never will.

Those are the same people who grew up on the playground and literally took their ball and went home.   All they are doing is hurting themsleves and their artisitic repitoire of talent and works.

Their void will be filled and then they too will be forgotten because their pride got in the way of progress.

Yeah, it's too late to take down your work because the art was already collected. And trying to avoid your work being fed to these algorithms thereafter is impossible. Nuking your gallery just makes it harder for true fans to find and appreciate your work. Not to mention that it also makes it harder to prove your work was harvested if you ever get the opportunity to file a claim since you no longer have the gallery to use as a receipt.

With musicians, the music lobby has ensured that every single reuse of a musician's work gets them some money. Why can't the art world do the same? Art is art.

Quote from: Grognard GM on May 13, 2023, 01:09:38 PM
The people that think A.I. won't be able to make amazing original art in a few years, are the same ones that thought cars, planes, and home computers were fads that wouldn't catch on. I barely know anything about it, but I've seen the improvements in a shockingly short space of time.

Again, not cheerleading for the technology, just being realistic. Lots of "I don't like it so it must not really be game changing" copium.

Other technologies took a while before they made a huge difference. The internet, for example, took around two decades to really take off. These recent AI developments are progressing ridiculously fast, more akin to the boom and bust cycles rather than permanent technological revolutions.

We've seen this with crypto, streaming, NFTs, news media, etc in the last decade. Boom and bust. It remains to be seen whether AI generators are here to stay or not. They're interesting novelties, to be sure, but they cost a lot of money to maintain and it remains to be seen if it has an adequate RoI.

Google has recently leaked that open source AIs are going to make the market unviable for tech giants, which is a first. But tech giants are also the few with enough money to maintain these programs.

It's unpredictable and that should be terrifying.

I've been unbelievably happy with using Midjourney for my one-man publisher needs.  My last 3 PDF releases have included A.I. art and, visually, they're looking really cool. 

It's not just a difference between $30 monthly subscription fee vs a couple thousand dollars, but the difference between $30 and leaving half the art out of the book so I can afford to release a book that only has $1,000 worth of art in it.

An AI Girlfriend made $72K in 1 week

A 23-year-old Snapchat star, Caryn Marjorie, has monetized her digital persona in an innovative and highly profitable way. Using GPT, she has launched CarynAI, an AI representation of herself offering virtual companionship at a rate of $1 per minute.

Key points about CarynAI and its success so far:

    Caryn has a substantial follower base on Snapchat, with 1.8 million followers.

    In just 1 week, over 1,000 virtual boyfriends have signed up to interact with the AI, generating over $71,610.

    Some estimates suggests that if even 1% of her 1.8 million followers subscribe to CarynAI, she could potentially earn an estimated $5 million per month, although I feel these numbers are highly subject to various factors including churn and usage rate.

The company behind CarynAI is called Forever Voices and they constructed CarynAI by analyzing 2,000 hours of Marjorie's YouTube content, which they used to build a personality engine. They've also made chatbot versions of Donald Trump, Steve Jobs and Taylor Swift to be used on a pay-per-use basis.

Despite the financial success, ethical concerns around CarynAI and similar AI applications are raising eyebrows and rightfully so:

    CarynAI was not designed for NSFW conversations, yet some users have managed to 'jail-break' the AI for potentially inappropriate or malicious uses.

    Caryn's original intention was to provide companionship and alleviate loneliness in a non-exploitative manner, but there are concerns about potential misuse.

    Ethical considerations around generative AI models, both in image and text modalities, are becoming increasingly relevant and challenging.

What's your take on such applications (which are inevitable given the AI proliferation) and it's ethical concerns?

Also, if you like such analysis and want to keep up with the latest news in Tech and AI, consider signing up for the free newsletter (TakeOff)

By signing up to the newsletter, you can get daily updates on the latest and most important stories in tech in a fun, quick and easy-to-digest manner.




When that eGirrl sold her bathwater I knew that simps would pay anything to famous people... it was only a matter of time after ChatGPT that a bot trained on influencer data and images would be launched.... this is the next step of onlyfans... interactive porn / virtual friend tailored to ring money out of freaks.

wonder how long till your funral service will be like... "and would you like her to be distilled into an app on your phone so you can still talk with her"?

we truly are living in a dystopia

I find myself extremely pessimistic about AI art and AI in general. I guess I learn to live with it the same way people learned to live with the invention of the atomic bomb. I only see negative trends coming from this, with positives only as a mild side-effect.
Hopefully, Il be dead before this becomes EXTREMELY nightmarish. Or at least nightmarish for me.
If AI can take art jobs, it will eventually take all jobs with maybe a few leftover niche curators, or places where human labor is just cheaper.

Edit: When AI was shopped around in the fiction of the 50s, it was so it would do the unpleasant plumbing or dehumanizing monotonous labor while leaving art, creativity, and discovery to others. It appears the development is in reverse.

The technology is already good enough to replace a lot of artists as it is. Not that they ever had that much of good career prospect to begin with, cuz the fact of the matter is that art as a profession utterly sucks on many levels and does not pay well at all with few exceptions. The other side of the coin behind all the comments putting down artists here is that art to the degree of quality and output many potential clients expect is often unrealistic if not outright impossible by human hand, specially at the rates that they're willing to pay, versus the amount of time and effort it takes to create this art. And it takes exceptional talent on top of years of training and dedication to develop.

It's not a matter of entitlement, but a matter of reality. And no other profession invites clients telling you how to do your job, or acting like paying you for a product entitles them to act as your boss or art director, like art does, when they don't even know WTF they're doing. And all of these changes and special requests ultimately have labor intensive knock on effects* that none of them are ever willing to pay. Cuz the more demanding that a client is the less they want to pay for art, cuz have skewed perceptions of what art is worth based on pricing that they see for infinitely resellable stock art, trading cards, or "custom" logos based on templates, etc.

On the upside, AI has the potential to serve as a useful tool to increase output and help serious artists shell out a lot of sample variants for bitchy clients that want to pay you less for your time than you'd make shoveling fries for an equivalent amount of time, then call you entitled for it. And you'll also be able to work out more ideas that you can modify and fine-tune later faster than you'd ever be able to do drawing them by hand from scratch.

All those artists shutting down their online profiles and stumping their feet need to understand that AI just saved from one of the most unfulfilling careers there is for the amount of skill and dedication it requires. Not that there aren't valid concerns about the pace this tech is advancing and what tech giants might ultimately do with it. But most of what AI will ultimately take away is the tedium of dealing with a thousand request changes from stingy clients wanting to play art director and expecting a hundred samples, cuz now the AI will do them for you at a minuscule fraction of the time. And at least for the time being you'll still have a job modifying the end product to the client's exacting specifications at a fraction of the hassle.

If you still want to keep your pride, you can use it to do work that you actually love for yourself and beef up your portfolio with all the time that you'll save having the AI do all the tedious stuff for you. There's still the matter of how art skills will likely degrade over time as a result of this technology, but fuck'em. If this is the future humanity chooses it deserves to go down with the rest of civilization. But this tech ain't going away unless a cataclysm takes place, so you might as well make the best of it.

*not just from the changes themselves, but from all the additional changes that will inevitably come when the changes they requested suck from a design perspective, like you told them they would from the get go. Cuz someone paying you for a drawing makes them a qualified art director, somehow.

Quote from: THE_Leopold on May 11, 2023, 03:50:00 PM
I spent 4-6 hours casually creating a dozen pieces of art that are better than something WOTC puts out with all the bells and whistles that I would need to publish the book and have it look amazing.  this would cost me in the realm of $500/piece for the color and detail that I spent $30/mo on. $6000 vs $30.  For my niche product that will net me dozens of dollars I'd have to be insane to spend that money on art when I can spend it on layout instead which is vastly more work and time consuming.


What I may have to do is have an artist touch up the pictures, add a few things here and there which may cost me as much to detail 12 pictures as it would to have one picture created.  All fully licensed and approved under the Midjourney CC license.


The evolution of art generation has reduced my neeed for spending a fortune and managing people who are notoriously flakey with a work ethic that rivals homeless people.  ...

This is where the future of art for RPG's is headed.

Pure Human drawn art will become be something only the Truly Talented will be able to command money for.

And I suspect many will be using AI as a tool to speed up production and output at competitive prices.
After all; when you can feed your own portfolio into the algorithm...

The wheat will be winnowed from the chaff in short order.

It's basically a land rush. Whoever can claim substantial real estate in the new high-production-value RPG space will earn a lot of money.

Full-color artwork with incredible art is no longer the exclusive purview of big name brands/IPs.

Quote from: Zelen on May 13, 2023, 04:37:45 PMFull-color artwork with incredible art is no longer the exclusive purview of big name brands/IPs.

It won't. The printing costs for color are still the primary determinators.

Quote from: Grognard GM on May 13, 2023, 01:09:38 PM
The people that think A.I. won't be able to make amazing original art in a few years, are the same ones that thought cars, planes, and home computers were fads that wouldn't catch on. I barely know anything about it, but I've seen the improvements in a shockingly short space of time.

Again, not cheerleading for the technology, just being realistic. Lots of "I don't like it so it must not really be game changing" copium.

Agreed. Mark Twain famously passed on the opportunity to invest in Telephones because he didn't think they'd catch on.

AI art is the future of commercial illustration. All the freelance artists are in denial of reality. They are trying to sue, get regulation passed, form unions to block it. So are writers, they are freaking out, and should be. This technology is bringing high level art and writing to the masses. We're talking supra-genius level art and writing. The future is going to be amazing and scary. Just like the 20th century was.

The only limit will be user's imagination.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on May 13, 2023, 01:23:05 PM
Other technologies took a while before they made a huge difference. The internet, for example, took around two decades to really take off.

The Internet was a weird, mostly academic thing initially. Then the world wide web protocol was made royalty-free in 1993, making the Internet far more user-friendly. The technology became widely taken up by the general public over just a few years, to the extent that I suspect most people don't even realise that there is an Internet beyond the www. It feels as though the user-friendliness is already there for AI.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on May 13, 2023, 01:23:05 PM
With musicians, the music lobby has ensured that every single reuse of a musician's work gets them some money. Why can't the art world do the same? Art is art.

Musicians get royalties when their songs, or covers, are played. Similarly, you have to pay to make use of an artist's work.

But you don't have to pay royalties if you write a song inspired by or influenced by another artist. Similarly, artists don't pay for creating art influenced by other artists. Music-generating AIs don't pay royalties on the songs that they were trained on. I don't see why AI art would be any different.

Quote from: Thor's Nads on May 13, 2023, 05:39:37 PM

Quote from: Grognard GM on May 13, 2023, 01:09:38 PM
The people that think A.I. won't be able to make amazing original art in a few years, are the same ones that thought cars, planes, and home computers were fads that wouldn't catch on. I barely know anything about it, but I've seen the improvements in a shockingly short space of time.

Again, not cheerleading for the technology, just being realistic. Lots of "I don't like it so it must not really be game changing" copium.

Agreed. Mark Twain famously passed on the opportunity to invest in Telephones because he didn't think they'd catch on.

AI art is the future of commercial illustration. All the freelance artists are in denial of reality. They are trying to sue, get regulation passed, form unions to block it. So are writers, they are freaking out, and should be. This technology is bringing high level art and writing to the masses. We're talking supra-genius level art and writing. The future is going to be amazing and scary. Just like the 20th century was.

The only limit will be user's imagination.

I've tried using ChatGPT to write fiction and for brainstorming. It's been completely useless to me

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on May 13, 2023, 04:41:07 PM

Quote from: Zelen on May 13, 2023, 04:37:45 PMFull-color artwork with incredible art is no longer the exclusive purview of big name brands/IPs.

It won't. The printing costs for color are still the primary determinators.

Well yes, but print is only a fraction of all RPG products. I interact a lot more with PDFs than I do with my books these days, since my group went fully online.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on May 13, 2023, 06:19:08 PM

Quote from: Thor's Nads on May 13, 2023, 05:39:37 PM

Quote from: Grognard GM on May 13, 2023, 01:09:38 PM
The people that think A.I. won't be able to make amazing original art in a few years, are the same ones that thought cars, planes, and home computers were fads that wouldn't catch on. I barely know anything about it, but I've seen the improvements in a shockingly short space of time.

Again, not cheerleading for the technology, just being realistic. Lots of "I don't like it so it must not really be game changing" copium.

Agreed. Mark Twain famously passed on the opportunity to invest in Telephones because he didn't think they'd catch on.

AI art is the future of commercial illustration. All the freelance artists are in denial of reality. They are trying to sue, get regulation passed, form unions to block it. So are writers, they are freaking out, and should be. This technology is bringing high level art and writing to the masses. We're talking supra-genius level art and writing. The future is going to be amazing and scary. Just like the 20th century was.

The only limit will be user's imagination.

I've tried using ChatGPT to write fiction and for brainstorming. It's been completely useless to me

My co-worker used ChatGPT to do some pretty neat stories -- very short, like a page or two. Not publishable, but interesting. I've actually read much worse professionally published.

Our Traveller GM used the chat AI on Discord (forget the name) to make a rap about Traveller and to create a science fiction tea for the Traveller universe. The tea was pretty cool. It looked like it used text related to a drug as the basis.

Quote from: THE_Leopold on May 13, 2023, 07:50:11 AM
which is 100% where AI art comes in.  Instead of a nebulous concept you have a "I like this picture but make the sword bigger and give him green eyes and a horn on his head". A world where 95% of the work is done and now it's a matter of curation instead of invention.

One of the running jokes among artists has been "AI requires clients to write a clear description of what they want. We're safe."

Having done thousands of illustrations for clients I can tell you, very few of them know what they want. Part of the job of an illustrator is to interact with the client and figure out what they really want.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on May 13, 2023, 06:19:08 PM

Quote from: Thor's Nads on May 13, 2023, 05:39:37 PM
The only limit will be user's imagination.

I've tried using ChatGPT to write fiction and for brainstorming. It's been completely useless to me

And I've written hundreds of pages, and more, with the aid of AI, and have published it.

You have to have an idea of what you want to say, do a lot of writing yourself, work with the AI to generate useful text, and edit the outputs. The analogy being you can get to the store faster on a bike than on foot, but you still have to pedal. It is still work, it doesn't automagically produce publishable text.

Quote from: Thor's Nads on May 13, 2023, 07:27:25 PM

Quote from: THE_Leopold on May 13, 2023, 07:50:11 AM
which is 100% where AI art comes in.  Instead of a nebulous concept you have a "I like this picture but make the sword bigger and give him green eyes and a horn on his head". A world where 95% of the work is done and now it's a matter of curation instead of invention.

One of the running jokes among artists has been "AI requires clients to write a clear description of what they want. We're safe."

Having done thousands of illustrations for clients I can tell you, very few of them know what they want. Part of the job of an illustrator is to interact with the client and figure out what they really want.

We make the same joke about AI software. "It needs to have thousands of statistical options. But be simple enough for a biologist to use."

Quote from: Thor's Nads on May 13, 2023, 07:34:12 PM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on May 13, 2023, 06:19:08 PM

Quote from: Thor's Nads on May 13, 2023, 05:39:37 PM
The only limit will be user's imagination.

I've tried using ChatGPT to write fiction and for brainstorming. It's been completely useless to me

And I've written hundreds of pages, and more, with the aid of AI, and have published it.

You have to have an idea of what you want to say, do a lot of writing yourself, work with the AI to generate useful text, and edit the outputs. The analogy being you can get to the store faster on a bike than on foot, but you still have to pedal. It is still work, it doesn't automagically produce publishable text.

I finally caved and started using Bard* a few days ago to try it out. Told it to write me an urban fantasy story based on a few setting parameters I specified. It gave something simple that served as an OK starting point for a broader story about young woman discovering she had magic powers.

Decided to give it a few edits and expand on a couple of parts to add a bit more dialog and details. Now I'm suddenly caught up writing the whole thing, going back to Bard occasionally for proofreads and bouncing off ideas to continue expanding on it. They're not always what I'm looking for, but it helps keep me on track or inspire other ideas about what I really do want, and I just drop what I don't need or change it. Still in the starting stages though.

"tried ChatGPT first, but kept getting told it was unable to create an account or whatever, so I gave up.

If it can be used for NSFW/porn applications, it's here to stay.  The rest is semantics after that.

Quote from: weirdguy564 on May 13, 2023, 09:07:26 PM
If it can be used for NSFW/porn applications, it's here to stay.  The rest is semantics after that.

Yup, just ask VHS.

Quote from: Grognard GM on May 13, 2023, 09:11:10 PM

Quote from: weirdguy564 on May 13, 2023, 09:07:26 PM
If it can be used for NSFW/porn applications, it's here to stay.  The rest is semantics after that.

Yup, just ask VHS.

I get the joke, but really that's a great example.  VHS created a whole industry, then improved to DVD, then to BlueRay, and now streaming sites.  It didn't die.  It evolved and got better and easier.

Quote from: weirdguy564 on May 13, 2023, 09:24:18 PM

Quote from: Grognard GM on May 13, 2023, 09:11:10 PM

Quote from: weirdguy564 on May 13, 2023, 09:07:26 PM
If it can be used for NSFW/porn applications, it's here to stay.  The rest is semantics after that.

Yup, just ask VHS.

I get the joke, but really that's a great example.  VHS created a whole industry, then improved to DVD, then to BlueRay, and now streaming sites.  It didn't die.  It evolved and got better and easier.

No I was being 100% genuine in my statement. Most people had their money on Betamax winning the format war, but the porn industry going with VHS made them the winner.

Hollywood and...Hornywood? I guess porn is just a sub category of Hollywood. Anyway, they're going to invest massively in A.I. The rest of the technology will benefit from that investment, much like digital art did.

I foresee a time, maybe a decade off, where people are able to use jailbroken A.I to make new songs by their favorite band, movies with their own choice of cast, finish the game Of Thrones books, you name it.

The music lobby killed any decent music AI. It's not a comparable situation

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on May 14, 2023, 05:11:58 AMThe music lobby killed any decent music AI. It's not a comparable situation

I dunno... the AI generated techno type stuff sounds pretty identical to "real" electronic music. Well, by identical I mean like the AI art.. it is still primitive in its duplication... but that is just temporary. I have also heard some pretty interesting AI gen "classical" music...

AI is a tech that is changing the world. Like mobile phones, the internet or the transistor or w/e. No one knows were it is going, but this "art gen" stuff is like a really public tip of an iceberg.  When great grandkids are born, they will not even understand the wold before AI. "What? You all didn't have personalised tutors for school?! You sat in a room with 20 people and listened to one person teach at the dumbest students level?!! wtf"

Quote from: Grognard GM on May 13, 2023, 11:48:31 AM


No, one can not simply learn to draw, at least not to the level people are discussing here. Don't be a troll.

Actually, anyone can learn to draw proficiently.  The book Drawing on the Right Side of the Brain is all you need, and some time to invest into drawing.

My wife has been using Perplexity AI https://www.perplexity.ai/ (https://www.perplexity.ai/) for a while as a search engine for pop culture she is unfamiliar with and to do stuff like look for celebrities with blond hair and green eyes. (For reference pictures while writing.) She was showing it to me. I like it because the results have links to the source.

We found new, cooler stuff to do with it.

For writing, my wife has trouble picking names. Asking Perplexity AI for first names popular in a particular country in the 1800s worked great. As did asking for surnames related to a particular field of endeavor. She didn't realize it would work so well. I've either lost my job picking names, or I've made myself more efficient, depending on how well she processes the new results.

For programming, we asked Perplexity AI how to get a column of data from a dataframe in R. It gave half a dozen or more methods, with sample code and a relevant link. And the first two methods were the IMO most common methods.

Quote from: Cathode Ray on May 14, 2023, 07:37:32 AM
Actually, anyone can learn to draw proficiently.  The book Drawing on the Right Side of the Brain is all you need, and some time to invest into drawing.

Time is the hard part, but I'll have to ask my local library to send a copy of that book my way.

Quote from: weirdguy564 on May 13, 2023, 09:24:18 PM

Quote from: Grognard GM on May 13, 2023, 09:11:10 PM

Quote from: weirdguy564 on May 13, 2023, 09:07:26 PM
If it can be used for NSFW/porn applications, it's here to stay.  The rest is semantics after that.

Yup, just ask VHS.

I get the joke, but really that's a great example.  VHS created a whole industry, then improved to DVD, then to BlueRay, and now streaming sites.  It didn't die.  It evolved and got better and easier.

Unless you really like a show and the streaming site has either dropped it or gone out of business, then you have to see if you can find it on DVD.

Quote from: Cathode Ray on May 14, 2023, 07:37:32 AM

Quote from: Grognard GM on May 13, 2023, 11:48:31 AM


No, one can not simply learn to draw, at least not to the level people are discussing here. Don't be a troll.

Actually, anyone can learn to draw proficiently.  The book Drawing on the Right Side of the Brain is all you need, and some time to invest into drawing.

Drawing is a surprisingly learnable skill. I teach art at a University. We get students who can't draw a stick figure, and by the time they graduate are pretty amazing draughtsmen. Those that apply themselves that is.

Quote from: Thor's Nads on May 15, 2023, 03:15:02 AM

Quote from: Cathode Ray on May 14, 2023, 07:37:32 AM

Quote from: Grognard GM on May 13, 2023, 11:48:31 AM


No, one can not simply learn to draw, at least not to the level people are discussing here. Don't be a troll.

Actually, anyone can learn to draw proficiently.  The book Drawing on the Right Side of the Brain is all you need, and some time to invest into drawing.

Drawing is a surprisingly learnable skill. I teach art at a University. We get students who can't draw a stick figure, and by the time they graduate are pretty amazing draughtsmen. Those that apply themselves that is.

Greetings!

Thor's Nads, you are an Art Professor??? That's awesome, man! When I was in college, I took some Drawing and Painting classes. I loved those classes, too. Very chill, relaxing, and fun! My Art Professor was this old, white-bearded dude, pretty Conservative, too! (Shocking, I know!). He was very good, kind, generous, and funny as Hell, too. I really enjoyed learning the basics of drawing and painting!

As an aside, I also got to take this really cool "Art Lab" class, for a couple of units. It was like, three hours a week, or we could always do more, and we could just go there, sign in for credit, and work on our art projects. Very cool class. I had a classmate--this really cool girl--that came the same times I did. She would crank this up on her CD player--



and this;


We would usually just be us together, drinking soda, listening to her Enigma album over and over while we painted. It felt like one of the most magical and relaxing classes I was able to attend. No politics, no debating, no stupid classmates running their mouths, or boring lectures from professors. Just her and myself, and occasionally a different staff Art Professor would regularly check up on us, providing supervision, guidance, and just being cool.

I miss those art classes.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: Cathode Ray on May 14, 2023, 07:37:32 AM

Quote from: Grognard GM on May 13, 2023, 11:48:31 AM


No, one can not simply learn to draw, at least not to the level people are discussing here. Don't be a troll.

Actually, anyone can learn to draw proficiently.  The book Drawing on the Right Side of the Brain is all you need, and some time to invest into drawing.

Doesn't work for everyone.  Or rather, it does work in some ways but not others.  If your hand is unsteady, there is an upper limit, same as not everyone can learn to paint a room to the point that they don't need to tape corners, for example.

Quote from: Grognard GM on May 13, 2023, 10:22:56 PM
I foresee a time, maybe a decade off, where people are able to use jailbroken A.I to make new songs by their favorite band, movies with their own choice of cast, finish the game Of Thrones books, you name it.

User: "Chatbot, write a conclusion to the A Song of Ice and Fire in the style of GRR Martin."

Chatbot (25 years later): "It's nearly halfway done. I'll have it out soon."

User: "I should have been clearer with that prompt."

Quote from: Chris24601 on May 15, 2023, 08:32:28 AM

Quote from: Grognard GM on May 13, 2023, 10:22:56 PM
I foresee a time, maybe a decade off, where people are able to use jailbroken A.I to make new songs by their favorite band, movies with their own choice of cast, finish the game Of Thrones books, you name it.

User: "Chatbot, write a conclusion to the A Song of Ice and Fire in the style of GRR Martin."

Chatbot (25 years later): "It's nearly halfway done. I'll have it out soon."

User: "I should have been clearer with that prompt."

(https://c.tenor.com/p1TKZjVajloAAAAC/tenor.gif)

video AI

Quote from: Summon666 on May 15, 2023, 03:12:38 PM

video AI

This must be what it felt like for people a century ago, going from silent movies, to talkies, to color, in under 20 years.

Yeah, we have not hit the talkies yet, but AI voice and music are here.  So, it is only a matter of time before they are integrated.

Quote from: SHARK on May 15, 2023, 03:47:11 AM
We would usually just be us together, drinking soda, listening to her Enigma album over and over while we painted. It felt like one of the most magical and relaxing classes I was able to attend. No politics, no debating, no stupid classmates running their mouths, or boring lectures from professors. Just her and myself, and occasionally a different staff Art Professor would regularly check up on us, providing supervision, guidance, and just being cool.

I miss those art classes.

Yeah. There is something pretty magical about art class. Just chilling to some classical music, or something instrumental like Enigma, and painting or drawing from a live model with a bunch of other artists. Taking breaks walking around the room seeing other people's art. And not all artists are commies.

Quote from: Steven Mitchell on May 15, 2023, 08:02:31 AM
Doesn't work for everyone.  Or rather, it does work in some ways but not others.  If your hand is unsteady, there is an upper limit, same as not everyone can learn to paint a room to the point that they don't need to tape corners, for example.

There was a well known artist who did concepts for film, he got some neurological disease and eventually degenerated to the point where he used software to track his eye movement so he could still draw on a screen. I guess what I'm saying is it is all in our will and how we choose to spend our time. We can learn anything, just not everything.

Want to see the latest result?  This entire PDF adventure (for Cha'alt and free, BTW) was illustrated with Midjourney A.I.

Take a look.  Visually, it's one of my best works (and from a scenario design standpoint, as well)... https://moordereht.com/product/the-violet-haunted-crypt/

If I didn't have Midjourney, there'd be no more than 3 illustrations in the entire thing... and 1 or 2 of them probably wouldn't be as high of quality (depending on which artists were available during my time-frame).

[scrolls through PDF]  Nice.  I like how you were able to keep a consistent theme/style and give it the the feel that it was the same artist throughout the work.

Quote from: VengerSatanis on May 16, 2023, 10:38:37 AM

Want to see the latest result? 

I know where you get your reference images, Venger.