Having perused a number of modern/sci-fi games and people's discussions of them, I've started to wonder if the inclusion of a broadly defined agility or dexterity type stat is a questionable design choice. Such a stat often covers gun accuracy, speed, initiative, moving through difficult terrain and a host of useful skills, which makes other stat choices look bad. Of course this is just my impression at the moment.

What have your experiences with agi/dex stats in such games been like? Are they the no-brainer option for player characters? How have they been mitigated or rationalized? What have been the most interesting alternatives?

My suggestion is to move the wealth to other attributes.  Want to do damage mod for guns.  Let perception attribute (or any stat that covers perception) do that instead.  Initiative could be use by wisdom instead of dexterity.  Point is spread that wealth.

Agree with Snowman here.  An argument could be made for using Intelligence/ Tech stats for beam weapons (they are fussy and have to be constantly tweaked, even in combat) and using Strength for slug throwers (recoil) and so on.  It all depends on how much stats influence skill use, I suppose.  Using Basic Roleplaying (Chaosium) you'll get a minor boost for high stats, but your skill matters much more.

The simple answer is yes.
In games where physical prowess and resiliency are superceded by technology dex becomes an uber stat.
But rather that leverage the "classic" stat pool you are better off defining an entirely different stat pool. So coordination,  agility and relexes might be great replacements for dnd "dexterity".
You should really select a stat pool that reflects the game/setting. So a scifi game might use thes three an prowess as a combined strength/stamina stat, then maybe charisma, int and willpower to round off the pc.
You don't have to end up with 25 stats either you can condense down to a tristat model with specialisms or even dump stats and have exceptional points as feats (lightning reflexes, inhuman endurance, etc). Then run everything else based on skill ranks.

In the game system I am doing I have four attributes.  Combat, physical, mental, and social.  Social isn't important in this so I leave it out.  

Point is combat attribute does all the combat rolls to see if you hit, or you manage to dodge the attack.  

Physical provides physical hp and provides bonus damage through weapons that requires you to be fit to use.  I am talking about bows, swords, throwing spears, axes, blow pipes, maces, and so on.

Mental provides mental/spiritual hp and provides bonus damage through weapons that require knowledge, mental prowess, or just being accurate.  This involves crossbows, wands, psychic energy swords, firearms, and so on.

Star Wars D6 spreads the utility around.

• Dexterity - hand gun accuracy small vehicle weapons, melee weapons, and running
• Knowledge - survival, intimidation, willpower
• Perception - initative, stealth, command, persuasion
• Mechanical - all vehicle piloting, ship weapons, shields, sensors, etc.
• Strength - brawling, climbing, jumping, swimming
• Technical - fixing things, computer hacking, security including electronic lock breaking

Quote from: Snowman0147;803795Physical provides physical hp and provides bonus damage through weapons that requires you to be fit to use.  I am talking about bows, swords, throwing spears, axes, blow pipes, maces, and so on.

Of the four attributes mentioned it seems like Physical might end up a dump stat in a Sci-Fi setting.

Not really as it provides health that keeps you alive.  Not to mention we could add in mono and power weapons.  A assassin that gets in close to the kill could easily go physical route.  Not to mention you still got all those none combat physical rolls.

I'm a big fan of breaking up Dexerity, Agility, and Reflexes.  It makes it cost three times as much as Strength.

Quote from: David Johansen;803803I'm a big fan of breaking up Dexerity, Agility, and Reflexes.  It makes it cost three times as much as Strength.

Ah that is true but what if your on a percentile strength

Hard Nova ][ takes a different approach. The abilities are Fitness, Awareness, Creativity, Reasoning, & Influence. There's only the one physical ability in a set of 5.

Quote from: David Johansen;803803I'm a big fan of breaking up Dexerity, Agility, and Reflexes.  It makes it cost three times as much as Strength.

Indeed, it doesn't make a lot of sense to combine hand-eye co-ordination (Dexterity) with full-body responsiveness and mobility or kinaesthetic awareness (Agility). The two things are quite different and can be focused on in isolation to each other.

Personally, I prefer games that are skill-based, not characteristic/stat-based.

So, rather than have Agility to cover everything, you have agility-based skills that cover different things. Sure, they start off higher, but not by an unbalanced amount.

Otherwise, you get someone who is automatically good at a lot of things. Now, that might be advantageous, in some respects, but would not be something that I would like as a GM or as a player.

Short answer: No. AGI/DEX as combat modifier work best if you have emphasis on space opera setting where heroes are supposed to be ubermench.

Long answer: Yes. I have came into conclusion that more realistic scifi settings the skill sets and more balanced attribute based distribution should be emphasized.

My current personal game design pet theorem is making mental characteristics (especially Willpower) most important factor in combat rather than physical characteristics...

I'm currently playing the CRPG "Dead State", which is interestingly reflective of this question.

Four stats, roughly Strength / Dexterity / Vigor / Perception.

Yeah, Dexterity helps you dodge, gives you more "action points" to move farther or take more swings or attempt more complicated actions. But (since it's post-zombie-apocalypse) you need Strength for using better melee weapons, for increasing melee damage, and for *hauling loot*, which is your entire reason for being out in the world taking risks. More importantly, Perception both limits your effective range with missile weapons and controls your initiative. Vigor is the only stat I don't seriously consider boosting: a point of vigor is +10% hit points and +5% or so passive armor, but a character can be knocked out with 2-3 solid hits, so +10% doesn't give you more survivability in hard fights, and it takes a dozen or more flesh wounds to take down even the scrawniest combatant, which is enough time for some in-combat healing.

I think the dominant stats are Per (take down your dangerous enemies quickly from long range with a firearm) and Str (take down zombies quietly with a single blow, without wasting bullets / making loud noises to draw attention), with Dex close behind - there are some magic breakpoints, a player with Dex 6-8 has a lot more flexibility in melee than a player with Dex 4.

Quote from: Nikita;803842My current personal game design pet theorem is making mental characteristics (especially Willpower) most important factor in combat rather than physical characteristics...

I think the willingness to hurt others and to be hurt is probably at least as important as any physical attribute in combat effectiveness in the real world.

One of the things I really liked about the original Boot Hill game from TSR was it treated speed, accuracy, and bravery as three separate attributes. All three mattered in a gun fight. IIR, it also counted the number of gunfights you'd been in and there was some bonus for having been in (and lived) through one or more gunfights.