What would you rather see:
Re-skinned spells to adjust them to the flavor of the setting
Totally new spells
A mix and match of both.
Aztec/Mayan priests were nothing like the Christian inspired cleric, they might be priests of one God, doesn't mean they didn't pray to the other gods, just that they only officiated in the temple of "their" God.
Same thing holds true for the MU, call it Shaman, Nahual, Sorcerer.
I'm "working" on a game/setting not even close to historically accurate but would like to give it a flavor that sets it apart from the classic Fantasy RPG.
So, what would you prefer?
Do you have any OGL source for different spells?
Persobally i like mixing the two approaches to casting so therrs a few familiar spells, though itd also be pretty cool to have all unique spells. One thing id reccomend is maybe pairing down both the MU and Cleric spell lists and eliminating the regular cleric from the setting.
The Maztica setting for 2nd ed. AD&D was fantasy Mesoamerica, and IIRC it had two spellcaster classes designed specifically for the purpose. Don't have the time to check right now, but at least one of them placed a great emphasis on creating various amulets/fetishes with magic effects.
Quote from: Premier on March 31, 2021, 07:55:29 AM
The Maztica setting for 2nd ed. AD&D was fantasy Mesoamerica, and IIRC it had two spellcaster classes designed specifically for the purpose. Don't have the time to check right now, but at least one of them placed a great emphasis on creating various amulets/fetishes with magic effects.
It was too much fantasy, meaning you can not recognize shit, many of the spells are re-skined, and the amulet ones would need to read again but IIRC were also re-skined spells to include the amulet.
But thanks for the recomendation will read it again to see what I like.
Quote from: Slambo on March 31, 2021, 03:20:16 AM
Persobally i like mixing the two approaches to casting so therrs a few familiar spells, though itd also be pretty cool to have all unique spells. One thing id reccomend is maybe pairing down both the MU and Cleric spell lists and eliminating the regular cleric from the setting.
IMHO In this case, the priest is a MU because no civilization (that I know) in México made really a distinction between divine/arcane magic it was all the same for them.
And the Sorcerer (Brujo) was an evil practitioner who used it's "powers" to do evil shit.
Problem is the Priest worked at the temple, why would the temple allow or send priests out in the world? especially since they didn't do proselitism.
But that's for the setting to create an excuse, and I think I have a good one, but maybe not, we'll see.
Thanks for the advice.
Re-Skinning and re-imagining the spells for a maya-aztec setting:
Wield the Sun: think of it as every fire/light spell rolled into one, caster chooses form and his power level determines range and damage.
Obsidian Shield: A thin & transparent smoke barrier envelopes the target, any missile/weapon that comes into contact with the barrier explodes in a burst of flames (Magic Armor).
Thoughts?
Think you should go for a custom magic system that really fits the setting. Maybe RPGPundit can help you out with that.
Quote from: Snowman0147 on March 31, 2021, 03:55:15 PM
Think you should go for a custom magic system that really fits the setting. Maybe RPGPundit can help you out with that.
That's my aim, custom magic, but it also needs some familiarity. After all a death spell (magic missile, power word die, etc) is a death spell and a curse is a curse.
So the main difference will be the name, description, ingredients, rituals and god involved. You don't ask for Quetzalcoatl to help you and offer him human sacrifice (he was very much against it).
Also the curses are very different, some hilarious while others horryfing.
As for recluting Pundies help... I don't have the money to pay him so...
I think that GURPS can help you. It has a whole chapter devoted to Magic.
http://www.sjgames.com/gurps/books/Aztecs/
GURPS Thaumatology looks at magic from "outside". Basically, is a guide to either create your magic system or to enhance an existing one.
http://www.sjgames.com/gurps/books/thaumatology/
A thread about "GURPS Mesoamerica" on SJ Games forum suggests both books.
http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread.php?t=167635
Last, but not least, D&D BECMI "Hollow World" had strong Mesoamerican influences. The first adventure was "Aztec-centered" and, when I ran it, it was a masterpiece.
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/17168/Hollow-World-Campaign-Setting-Basic
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/17148/HWR1-Sons-of-Azca-Basic?src=also_purchased
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/17146/HWA1-Nightwail-Basic?src=also_purchased
Quote from: Reckall on March 31, 2021, 04:47:16 PM
I think that GURPS can help you. It has a whole chapter devoted to Magic.
http://www.sjgames.com/gurps/books/Aztecs/
GURPS Thaumatology looks at magic from "outside". Basically, is a guide to either create your magic system or to enhance an existing one.
http://www.sjgames.com/gurps/books/thaumatology/
A thread about "GURPS Mesoamerica" on SJ Games forum suggests both books.
http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread.php?t=167635
Last, but not least, D&D BECMI "Hollow World" had strong Mesoamerican influences. The first adventure was "Aztec-centered" and, when I ran it, it was a masterpiece.
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/17168/Hollow-World-Campaign-Setting-Basic
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/17148/HWR1-Sons-of-Azca-Basic?src=also_purchased
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/17146/HWA1-Nightwail-Basic?src=also_purchased
THANKS! It will help with the research.
#HotTake, #OSR #TTRPG Sons of Azca, Hollow World & Maztica are badly re-skinned D&D stuff, GURPS Aztecs, d20 Aztecs aren't much better, although GURPS has a lot of accurate stuff, but the magic is the same exact shit.
Guess it was fate that I decided to undertake this challenge.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 01, 2021, 01:50:11 AM
#HotTake, #OSR #TTRPG Sons of Azca, Hollow World & Maztica are badly re-skinned D&D stuff, GURPS Aztecs, d20 Aztecs aren't much better, although GURPS has a lot of accurate stuff, but the magic is the same exact shit.
Guess it was fate that I decided to undertake this challenge.
I thought Maztica suffered because it wasn't really clear what it was doing. It used mostly existing D&D rules - which was intended to make things more familiar, but there was also a ton of details about the setting that made it hard to get into - so the familiarity of the rules wasn't very helpful. I thought GURPS Aztecs punted some on the magic by not having a completely new magic system, but the parts they wrote in seemed good. The main problem was that they didn't want to use up much new page count.
The big question for me is if you're doing a game that isn't re-skinned D&D, how can it be accessible for players who don't know much about Mesoamerican myth and culture?
Quote from: jhkim on April 01, 2021, 07:38:43 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 01, 2021, 01:50:11 AM
#HotTake, #OSR #TTRPG Sons of Azca, Hollow World & Maztica are badly re-skinned D&D stuff, GURPS Aztecs, d20 Aztecs aren't much better, although GURPS has a lot of accurate stuff, but the magic is the same exact shit.
Guess it was fate that I decided to undertake this challenge.
I thought Maztica suffered because it wasn't really clear what it was doing. It used mostly existing D&D rules - which was intended to make things more familiar, but there was also a ton of details about the setting that made it hard to get into - so the familiarity of the rules wasn't very helpful. I thought GURPS Aztecs punted some on the magic by not having a completely new magic system, but the parts they wrote in seemed good. The main problem was that they didn't want to use up much new page count.
The big question for me is if you're doing a game that isn't re-skinned D&D, how can it be accessible for players who don't know much about Mesoamerican myth and culture?
Who said it's not based upon D&D?
Agreed on the Maztica and other D&D products, too generic, same magic spells and magic system.
Agreed again on GURPS Aztecs, the historical/mythological part they got down to a T, fumbled the ball horribly by not making a unique magic system.
Take a gander to this:
You're very familiar with this spell, modified enough to add the flavor of the setting. And the magic system isn't the same as D&D either.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 31, 2021, 12:30:05 AM
What would you rather see:
...
Aztec/Mayan priests were nothing like the Christian inspired cleric, they might be priests of one God, doesn't mean they didn't pray to the other gods, just that they only officiated in the temple of "their" God.
Same thing holds true for the MU, call it Shaman, Nahual, Sorcerer.
...
Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 31, 2021, 12:24:13 PM
The Maztica setting for 2nd ed.....
It was too much fantasy, meaning you can not recognize shit, many of the spells are re-skined, and the amulet ones would need to read again but IIRC were also re-skined spells to include the amulet.
But thanks for the recommendation will read it again to see what I like.
The issue I see with an Aztec/Mayan RPG is that if you are not going to reskin the lore and leave it largely still recognizable as Aztec/Mayan, How do you get around the fact that these cultures religions were Horrifically Evil?
And if their religion is literally mass human sacrifice is ok straight-up evil - their cultural mores and values are not too far behind.
Being 'True' to the Aztec/Mayan cultures makes it very hard for it to be anything but 'Evil' campaign play by default.
Quote from: Jaeger on April 02, 2021, 08:12:38 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 31, 2021, 12:30:05 AM
What would you rather see:
...
Aztec/Mayan priests were nothing like the Christian inspired cleric, they might be priests of one God, doesn't mean they didn't pray to the other gods, just that they only officiated in the temple of "their" God.
Same thing holds true for the MU, call it Shaman, Nahual, Sorcerer.
...
Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 31, 2021, 12:24:13 PM
The Maztica setting for 2nd ed.....
It was too much fantasy, meaning you can not recognize shit, many of the spells are re-skined, and the amulet ones would need to read again but IIRC were also re-skined spells to include the amulet.
But thanks for the recommendation will read it again to see what I like.
The issue I see with an Aztec/Mayan RPG is that if you are not going to reskin the lore and leave it largely still recognizable as Aztec/Mayan, How do you get around the fact that these cultures religions were Horrifically Evil?
And if their religion is literally mass human sacrifice is ok straight-up evil - their cultural mores and values are not too far behind.
Being 'True' to the Aztec/Mayan cultures makes it very hard for it to be anything but 'Evil' campaign play by default.
Thst's the crux of the issue, how to have good PCs in such an environment, think I came up with a solution for the conundrum, it might not work tho, but I believe it will.
And without turning the historical cultures into saints too.
Greetings!
I think some essential re-skinning is not only necessary, but also the most efficient and playable. It doesn't seem necessary to come up with an entirely new kind of magic system--which, undoubtedly could require an enormous investment in time and energy, all with having serious questions of such a project in the end being worthwhile or playable.
The magic spells can be broken down into utilitarian effect categories--knowledge, defenses, healing, curing diseases/problems, attack spells, elemental spells, summoning spells, mobility/transportation spells, and such like. Aztec and Indian sorcerers and priests no doubt want the same kinds of benefits, effects, and powers that sorcerers and such from any other culture seek from whatever system of magic they use, so the effects, mechanic-wise, shouldn't really be any different. So, after grouping all the spells up into different categories, go through and change their names, tweak some of the visual effects, add some different ingredients and ritual aspects, and you should be good to go. That way you also know that the spells remain relatively balanced and playable, even while both you and the players would still have to get accustomed to referencing such spells by different names and so on. If you think about it, all of that process right there is a project of formidable challenge.
Priests and Wizards--As to additional sources and effects, have obsidian blood-stones, etched in gold runes and empowered by the blood sacrifices of humans in a weekly or monthly charging basis. Have different obsidian soul-stones have different levels of power--whatever quantity of spell levels or spell points stored within them, which then through prayers and rituals the Indian priest can access for use in their magic spells. Depending on how many spells are cast--you decide--the priest at different intervals, every month, every three months, six months, or year, must return to one or more of the great temples and participate in sacrificing human victims to recharge his mystical soul-stone.
Animal Shamans--druids, perhaps a special kind of animal-spirit bonded sorcerer, are empowered by mystical rituals honoring their holy animals and natural elements. such rituals could include sacrifice of goods and treasure, performance of quests and deeds, and also the blood sacrifice of enemies, serving as a source of food for such animal and elemental gods and spirits.
Mystics and Witches--these kinds of spellcasters would have mystical bonds with their demon patrons and embrace having sex with them in mystical rituals, conducting blood sacrifices of enemies, going on quests, performance of various tasks and deeds. Such characters would have frequent spiritual meetings with their patrons, receiving knowledge, wisdom, learning and so on. Every day. These people are deep, mystical freaks, and have terrible powers with patrons that are an active and very real part of their lives. Such figures may also have demonic helpers about them, causing all kinds of minor, mystical effects. There's a reason many of the local people fear these folks. It isn't just because they snort too much coke and rant and rave about shit. Some of these mystics and witches can also do various healing spells and powers, psychic surgery, helping troubled childbirth, causing children born under their supervision to have chaos mutations and mystical powers. These dark figures can also bring curses and diseases, and sometimes heal them as well. These witches and mystics also often love to teach terrible spirituality and ideology, causing friction and rebellion within families and communities alike. Naturally, they also typically oppose the ideology and major customs of the larger, official religion, disagreeing with them on doctrines, emphasis, whatever. so there is room for institutional friction there as well, even within a pagan religion.
I think embracing these considerations would make an Aztec/Native Indian themed campaign distinctive, very different, while still being comprehensible to the players and also playable. There is a whole host of additional economic, political, social, and mystical dynamics that can be layered into these ideas as well, further making the campaign, and the Indian spell casters a unique contribution to the campaign as a whole.
I hope my suggestions are helpful, my friend.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Hi Shark!
Thanks brother, those are some well thought ideas, I might end up shamelessly stealing them.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 02, 2021, 10:05:56 PM
Hi Shark!
Thanks brother, those are some well thought ideas, I might end up shamelessly stealing them.
Greetings!
Brother! You are very welcome! I was also thinking--we all are familiar with the Aztecs and others love for blood sacrifice to feed their Sun God so that the Sun God wouldn't die, right? But also, as I recall, the Aztecs and Mayans, and other native tribes, too, also worshipped various other gods and goddesses. There might be room there for the organization of different cults devoted to different deities. Most of course, I imagine would be allied with the main Sun god, but it doesn't seem unlikely that some of them may also be different, and have different methods, approaches, rituals, and priorities. Some of them may even oppose the main cult of the Sun god.
Also, within my previous commentary, I mentioned animal shamans and druids. "Druids" of course being a stand-in for various kinds of shamans and nature-centered mystics. Is it not also true that many Indian tribes worshipped animal spirits and various natural elements? I'm also guessing that some aspects of primitive Animism--as such is common throughout the world in most primitive societies--would have PRE-EXISTED before the rise of the huge, organized, urban religions of the Aztecs and Mayans? Definitely seems like there I room to explore some different kinds of religious cults and traditions there, you know?
It reminds me of how important so much symbolism, ritual, and beliefs revolved around the jaguar, panthers, eagles, various giant birds, colorful parrots, maybe even apes and crocodiles. Oh, and of course, snakes, and feathered, flying serpents with magical and mystical powers! Go crazy with the turquoise, purple and yellow-feathered serpents, you know? Imagine there being secretive cults that are headquartered in different cities, some worshipping a blue and green dragon-like serpent, while in another, a red, white, and orange-feathered serpent spirit creature is the center of worship. Add in a Black Jaguar Cult, and a cult of sorcerers that worship the Purple Ape King, and you have the basis there for all kinds of fun, as well as providing some different kinds of religions, religious cults, each with different values and philosophies, and different kinds of mystical rituals.
Also, don't forget to do something with the lore of ancient races of advanced giants, which supposedly lived there *before* the humans did. Some mystical giants could be worshipped as gods and goddesses, too.
Fuck, my brother. How about all the lore that suggests that the ancient Egyptians had made contact with South America? They have found *COCAINE* inside Egyptian Mummies, from thousands of years ago. Cocaine *only* grows in South America. How about those gigantic statues in the jungle--that look just like black African warriors? I think they also date from hundreds of years if not thousands of years--before any Columbian contact was made with South America. Also, there is archeologists that have demonstrated precise engineering similarities between pyramid construction in Egypt, Mesopotamia, China, South Asia, and South America, all suggesting such knowledge came from one source, a kind of global super-culture that existed thousands of years ago.
THEN, there is the book, 1402 or something. Menzies. He did this fantastic book on the great Chinese fleet that sailed around the world a century or more before Columbus discovered the New World. The author suggests that Chinese sailors lived and interbred with the local Indian peoples. He cites ancient DNA, and linguistic studies of various Indian languages there that have CHINESE words and equivalents. as well as many tribes having narrow eyes and distinctly Asian features--strikingly different from the more common Indian features from tribes all around them. Some fascinating stuff, brother!
So much cool and interesting stuff you can get into with a Central American/South American campaign! ;D
And also, according to many archeologists, there appears to have been wide-spread sex cults throughout South American civilizations. They have detailed murals--thousands of them--showing every kind of sexual activity being indulged in! Like, total XXX stuff. *laughing* Modern *Pron* doesn't have a damned thing on the ancient people of South America! Really wild stuff!
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: Jaeger on April 02, 2021, 08:12:38 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 31, 2021, 12:30:05 AM
What would you rather see:
...
Aztec/Mayan priests were nothing like the Christian inspired cleric, they might be priests of one God, doesn't mean they didn't pray to the other gods, just that they only officiated in the temple of "their" God.
Same thing holds true for the MU, call it Shaman, Nahual, Sorcerer.
...
Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 31, 2021, 12:24:13 PM
The Maztica setting for 2nd ed.....
It was too much fantasy, meaning you can not recognize shit, many of the spells are re-skined, and the amulet ones would need to read again but IIRC were also re-skined spells to include the amulet.
But thanks for the recommendation will read it again to see what I like.
The issue I see with an Aztec/Mayan RPG is that if you are not going to reskin the lore and leave it largely still recognizable as Aztec/Mayan, How do you get around the fact that these cultures religions were Horrifically Evil?
And if their religion is literally mass human sacrifice is ok straight-up evil - their cultural mores and values are not too far behind.
Being 'True' to the Aztec/Mayan cultures makes it very hard for it to be anything but 'Evil' campaign play by default.
What?
Just because they practiced human sacrifice doesn't mean they acted cartoonishly evil in every area of life. Plenty of religions across the world engaged in human sacrifice and I don't see people claiming the Greeks and Romans were real life cartoon villains. In order for a society to function, they couldn't have acted that way.
http://www.aztec-history.com/aztec-culture.html
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on April 03, 2021, 01:51:34 PM
Quote from: Jaeger on April 02, 2021, 08:12:38 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 31, 2021, 12:30:05 AM
What would you rather see:
...
Aztec/Mayan priests were nothing like the Christian inspired cleric, they might be priests of one God, doesn't mean they didn't pray to the other gods, just that they only officiated in the temple of "their" God.
Same thing holds true for the MU, call it Shaman, Nahual, Sorcerer.
...
Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 31, 2021, 12:24:13 PM
The Maztica setting for 2nd ed.....
It was too much fantasy, meaning you can not recognize shit, many of the spells are re-skined, and the amulet ones would need to read again but IIRC were also re-skined spells to include the amulet.
But thanks for the recommendation will read it again to see what I like.
The issue I see with an Aztec/Mayan RPG is that if you are not going to reskin the lore and leave it largely still recognizable as Aztec/Mayan, How do you get around the fact that these cultures religions were Horrifically Evil?
And if their religion is literally mass human sacrifice is ok straight-up evil - their cultural mores and values are not too far behind.
Being 'True' to the Aztec/Mayan cultures makes it very hard for it to be anything but 'Evil' campaign play by default.
What?
Just because they practiced human sacrifice doesn't mean they acted cartoonishly evil in every area of life. Plenty of religions across the world engaged in human sacrifice and I don't see people claiming the Greeks and Romans were real life cartoon villains. In order for a society to function, they couldn't have acted that way.
http://www.aztec-history.com/aztec-culture.html
True to an extend, but in the case of Aztec society in particular they truly were almost cartoonishly evil, which is why other native cultures (stupidly, in retrospect) allied with Cortés in deposing the Aztec, cuz everyone was sick of their shit by the time the Spanish got there, and they didn't know the Spanish would be almost as bad.
Quote from: VisionStorm on April 03, 2021, 01:59:42 PM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on April 03, 2021, 01:51:34 PM
Quote from: Jaeger on April 02, 2021, 08:12:38 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 31, 2021, 12:30:05 AM
What would you rather see:
...
Aztec/Mayan priests were nothing like the Christian inspired cleric, they might be priests of one God, doesn't mean they didn't pray to the other gods, just that they only officiated in the temple of "their" God.
Same thing holds true for the MU, call it Shaman, Nahual, Sorcerer.
...
Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 31, 2021, 12:24:13 PM
The Maztica setting for 2nd ed.....
It was too much fantasy, meaning you can not recognize shit, many of the spells are re-skined, and the amulet ones would need to read again but IIRC were also re-skined spells to include the amulet.
But thanks for the recommendation will read it again to see what I like.
The issue I see with an Aztec/Mayan RPG is that if you are not going to reskin the lore and leave it largely still recognizable as Aztec/Mayan, How do you get around the fact that these cultures religions were Horrifically Evil?
And if their religion is literally mass human sacrifice is ok straight-up evil - their cultural mores and values are not too far behind.
Being 'True' to the Aztec/Mayan cultures makes it very hard for it to be anything but 'Evil' campaign play by default.
What?
Just because they practiced human sacrifice doesn't mean they acted cartoonishly evil in every area of life. Plenty of religions across the world engaged in human sacrifice and I don't see people claiming the Greeks and Romans were real life cartoon villains. In order for a society to function, they couldn't have acted that way.
http://www.aztec-history.com/aztec-culture.html
True to an extend, but in the case of Aztec society in particular they truly were almost cartoonishly evil, which is why other native cultures (stupidly, in retrospect) allied with Cortés in deposing the Aztec, cuz everyone was sick of their shit by the time the Spanish got there, and they didn't know the Spanish would be almost as bad.
Again, What? You just said Europeans would be almost as bad. Are you arguing that Europeans were evil too? Well in that case, All cultures prior to now were by modern standards virtually cartoon evil. The fantasy genre is heavily sanitized because a realistic depiction of a pre-modern person would be deeply unsympathetic. You could make the argument that similar negative relations that invaders could take advantage of exist across the world, as evidenced by ethnic cleansing. The Serbs, Tsetses, Palestinians, etc. Why are we making a big deal about Mesoamerican cultures specifically?
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on April 03, 2021, 02:15:36 PMAgain, What? You just said Europeans would be almost as bad. Are you arguing that Europeans were evil too?
No, I said that IN RETROSPECT they turned out to be, but the other native cultures under the thumb of the Aztecs didn't know that at the time. And YES, the Europeans that conquered what eventually came to be know was the "Americas" were a bunch of evil enslaving bastards who conquered people they saw only as a bunch of primitive false-god worshiping pagans not worthy of being treated with proper dignity and respect. They took their lands and enslaved them, and forced them to mine their gold to ship it back to Europe. That sounds evil AF to me.
This isn't necessarily to say that 100% of all Europeans were like that, but the people actually willing to make the months long trip to the "New World" were cut from a different cloth and came with a different mindset from regular people back in the "Old World". They were ruthless adventurous types (some of them actual criminals taking the risks of travel to a primitive New World to avoid sentencing, IIRC) caught in an effectively lawless land where they could suffer little or no consequences for their actions and had superior technology than the native population at their disposal with little cause for restraint. The Europeans that took the first steps into the New World were by and large not nice people.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on April 03, 2021, 02:15:36 PMWell in that case, All cultures prior to now were by modern standards virtually cartoon evil. The fantasy genre is heavily sanitized because a realistic depiction of a pre-modern person would be deeply unsympathetic. You could make the argument that similar negative relations that invaders could take advantage of exist across the world, as evidenced by ethnic cleansing. The Serbs, Tsetses, Palestinians, etc. Why are we making a big deal about Mesoamerican cultures specifically?
I don't even know what "standards" you're talking about. You're just jumping into extreme black and white extrapolations here with little nuance--either everyone is cartoonishly evil, or everything is just relative and actual evil stuff can't be pointed out--when reality is far more complex than that. And nobody is making a big deal about Mesoamerican cultures in general, I'm just pointing out the historical fact that the AZTECS, specifically (and the Aztecs alone) where an out of control Imperialistic culture that EVERYONE in the surrounding regions was just SICK about because they truly were violent and bloodthirsty and seemed to worship almost outright evil gods.
They didn't just sacrifice select people who were usually voluntaries (as was the case in most European cultures that practiced human sacrifice), but went out of their way to conquer and rampage across the region, sacrificing enemies of war everywhere they went, at a level that rivaled almost any other culture on Earth. Just because "other cultures also had human sacrifices " that doesn't mean "and therefore 100% every culture that practiced human sacrifices did so at the same circumstances and the same rate". In most European cultures human sacrifices were uncommon, and typically volunteers. The Aztecs practiced rampaging human sacrifices gathering people from all over the place.
Quote from: SHARK on April 02, 2021, 11:31:32 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 02, 2021, 10:05:56 PM
Hi Shark!
Thanks brother, those are some well thought ideas, I might end up shamelessly stealing them.
Greetings!
Brother! You are very welcome! I was also thinking--we all are familiar with the Aztecs and others love for blood sacrifice to feed their Sun God so that the Sun God wouldn't die, right? But also, as I recall, the Aztecs and Mayans, and other native tribes, too, also worshipped various other gods and goddesses. There might be room there for the organization of different cults devoted to different deities. Most of course, I imagine would be allied with the main Sun god, but it doesn't seem unlikely that some of them may also be different, and have different methods, approaches, rituals, and priorities. Some of them may even oppose the main cult of the Sun god.
Also, within my previous commentary, I mentioned animal shamans and druids. "Druids" of course being a stand-in for various kinds of shamans and nature-centered mystics. Is it not also true that many Indian tribes worshipped animal spirits and various natural elements? I'm also guessing that some aspects of primitive Animism--as such is common throughout the world in most primitive societies--would have PRE-EXISTED before the rise of the huge, organized, urban religions of the Aztecs and Mayans? Definitely seems like there I room to explore some different kinds of religious cults and traditions there, you know?
It reminds me of how important so much symbolism, ritual, and beliefs revolved around the jaguar, panthers, eagles, various giant birds, colorful parrots, maybe even apes and crocodiles. Oh, and of course, snakes, and feathered, flying serpents with magical and mystical powers! Go crazy with the turquoise, purple and yellow-feathered serpents, you know? Imagine there being secretive cults that are headquartered in different cities, some worshipping a blue and green dragon-like serpent, while in another, a red, white, and orange-feathered serpent spirit creature is the center of worship. Add in a Black Jaguar Cult, and a cult of sorcerers that worship the Purple Ape King, and you have the basis there for all kinds of fun, as well as providing some different kinds of religions, religious cults, each with different values and philosophies, and different kinds of mystical rituals.
Also, don't forget to do something with the lore of ancient races of advanced giants, which supposedly lived there *before* the humans did. Some mystical giants could be worshipped as gods and goddesses, too.
Fuck, my brother. How about all the lore that suggests that the ancient Egyptians had made contact with South America? They have found *COCAINE* inside Egyptian Mummies, from thousands of years ago. Cocaine *only* grows in South America. How about those gigantic statues in the jungle--that look just like black African warriors? I think they also date from hundreds of years if not thousands of years--before any Columbian contact was made with South America. Also, there is archeologists that have demonstrated precise engineering similarities between pyramid construction in Egypt, Mesopotamia, China, South Asia, and South America, all suggesting such knowledge came from one source, a kind of global super-culture that existed thousands of years ago.
THEN, there is the book, 1402 or something. Menzies. He did this fantastic book on the great Chinese fleet that sailed around the world a century or more before Columbus discovered the New World. The author suggests that Chinese sailors lived and interbred with the local Indian peoples. He cites ancient DNA, and linguistic studies of various Indian languages there that have CHINESE words and equivalents. as well as many tribes having narrow eyes and distinctly Asian features--strikingly different from the more common Indian features from tribes all around them. Some fascinating stuff, brother!
So much cool and interesting stuff you can get into with a Central American/South American campaign! ;D
And also, according to many archeologists, there appears to have been wide-spread sex cults throughout South American civilizations. They have detailed murals--thousands of them--showing every kind of sexual activity being indulged in! Like, total XXX stuff. *laughing* Modern *Pron* doesn't have a damned thing on the ancient people of South America! Really wild stuff!
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Well, since I'm going for the fantasy and not the historically accurate setting, I don't see why that can't be all included.
Since The title of my totally not conan was stolen right out of my feet I'm not saying much more.
Quote from: VisionStorm on April 03, 2021, 03:05:22 PM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on April 03, 2021, 02:15:36 PMAgain, What? You just said Europeans would be almost as bad. Are you arguing that Europeans were evil too?
No, I said that IN RETROSPECT they turned out to be, but the other native cultures under the thumb of the Aztecs didn't know that at the time. And YES, the Europeans that conquered what eventually came to be know was the "Americas" were a bunch of evil enslaving bastards who conquered people they saw only as a bunch of primitive false-god worshiping pagans not worthy of being treated with proper dignity and respect. They took their lands and enslaved them, and forced them to mine their gold to ship it back to Europe. That sounds evil AF to me.
This isn't necessarily to say that 100% of all Europeans were like that, but the people actually willing to make the months long trip to the "New World" were cut from a different cloth and came with a different mindset from regular people back in the "Old World". They were ruthless adventurous types (some of them actual criminals taking the risks of travel to a primitive New World to avoid sentencing, IIRC) caught in an effectively lawless land where they could suffer little or no consequences for their actions and had superior technology than the native population at their disposal with little cause for restraint. The Europeans that took the first steps into the New World were by and large not nice people.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on April 03, 2021, 02:15:36 PMWell in that case, All cultures prior to now were by modern standards virtually cartoon evil. The fantasy genre is heavily sanitized because a realistic depiction of a pre-modern person would be deeply unsympathetic. You could make the argument that similar negative relations that invaders could take advantage of exist across the world, as evidenced by ethnic cleansing. The Serbs, Tsetses, Palestinians, etc. Why are we making a big deal about Mesoamerican cultures specifically?
I don't even know what "standards" you're talking about. You're just jumping into extreme black and white extrapolations here with little nuance--either everyone is cartoonishly evil, or everything is just relative and actual evil stuff can't be pointed out--when reality is far more complex than that. And nobody is making a big deal about Mesoamerican cultures in general, I'm just pointing out the historical fact that the AZTECS, specifically (and the Aztecs alone) where an out of control Imperialistic culture that EVERYONE in the surrounding regions was just SICK about because they truly were violent and bloodthirsty and seemed to worship almost outright evil gods.
They didn't just sacrifice select people who were usually voluntaries (as was the case in most European cultures that practiced human sacrifice), but went out of their way to conquer and rampage across the region, sacrificing enemies of war everywhere they went, at a level that rivaled almost any other culture on Earth. Just because "other cultures also had human sacrifices " that doesn't mean "and therefore 100% every culture that practiced human sacrifices did so at the same circumstances and the same rate". In most European cultures human sacrifices were uncommon, and typically volunteers. The Aztecs practiced rampaging human sacrifices gathering people from all over the place.
To put things in perspective :
https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2018/06/feeding-gods-hundreds-skulls-reveal-massive-scale-human-sacrifice-aztec-capital (https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2018/06/feeding-gods-hundreds-skulls-reveal-massive-scale-human-sacrifice-aztec-capital)