Hi all,

Apologies for all the text!

I'm in an interesting situation. I moved to a small town in the southern US.  Finding any type of local gaming group (even board games) has been near impossible. I finally had a neighbor bring up that we should play a rpg. He knows I'm into them. I said yes. I was thinking four players plus me as GM. He wanted to bring his son. I said it was fine. He has now come to me with interest from other guys with their kids and a few of his sons friends. Two of kids I'm not fond of and my kids don't like.  The number has gone up to 12 now not including me or my kids. I figured if kids were going to play than mine should be included.

What I was hoping would only be a few adults has turned into a family type gaming group. I'm sort of disappointed, but also happy to introduce the hobby. It's a weird situation. I told him that 12 is just too much. I offered to split the group and do two one shots so people can see if they like it. My thought is that the ones that love it could be do it more, as rpgs aren't for everyone.  What I hoped would be a relaxing and fun campaign with adults has pretty much turned into me hosting a gaming community group. I'm starting to feel the pressure of planning it.

Advice: how would you handle this?

My questions:

I'm thinking OSE or There and Hack Again (TBH but leaning towards classic fantasy), due to simplicity. However, how would I handle this type of action:

"I want to jump on a trolls back and shoot him with an arrow or stab him." 

I can see that type of action being ask for (LoTR - movie - type action). How would that work in a BX scenario?


I'm wondering if I need to pick a more cinematic type set of rules like Savage Worlds, Genesys, or the like.

Jeezus. All I can say is good luck running a group for 12. Good news is that a fair few of them will probably drop out after a few sessions and leave you with a more manageable number.

You don't need specific "stunt" rules to do that sort of thing. I might recommend something more abstract like There and Hack Again over OSE, where the rules are a little more concrete. But you can do it in any game.

In OSR type games I usually do that sort of thing as a modified attribute test. So jumping on a troll's back is going to be a Dex or Str check (up to you), and then depending on the system I'll change how I modify it. If I'm using a game that usually rolls with attribute checks with modifiers (i.e. I have 16 Str, so I have a +2 roll), I'll steal the ICRPG system, where all "Easy" rolls are at +3 and all "Hard" rolls are at -3. If I'm using a game where you roll under your attribute score for checks, I'll sometimes still use the +/- 3 system, but for newer players I'd probably instead go with an advantage/disadvantage system, just because they'll probably find it more intuitive. (I believe that's what most Black Hack derived rulesets do anyway).

To me, the important thing if you want to do that more cinematic style of game, is that trying out cinematic actions should be mechanically rewarded, and failing them not too severely punished. So for e.g., I might say something like "if you succeed in jumping on the troll's back, you'll get advantage on your attack, but if you fail you'll fall and take 1d4 damage" or something like that. If you punish risk-taking too harshly or fail to reward it, players will default back to "I hit it with my sword" every round.

As far as game choice goes, I would generally go for an abstract, rules-light game for newbies and kids. I don't know There and Hack Again that well, but from what I remember it has some weird rules designed to specifically emulate Lord of the Rings. If you want a more general fantasy ruleset, you might prefer By This Axe I Hack, from the same publisher. It's intended for Sword & Sorcery, so it has no races other than human, but from my understanding it has a more conventional class structure and magic system. If you an even more traditional Elves-Dwarves-&-Wizards fantasy, you might even go back to the original Black Hack. there's also Index Card RPG and EZD6. Both are very easy to learn, and so stripped down they don't even have leveling up. All these games are also extremely cheap, which I regard as a major asset for new players. They can buy their own copies of the book, without having invested too much if they turn out not to like it. 

The only caveat I'll put on that is that there is one big advantage to starting a new group on D&D. Namely, that it's then much easier to convert the group into other games. That said, all the games mentioned above are similar enough to D&D that it isn't a huge jump (except possibly EZD6), and the people who become devoted to the hobby won't mind the effort to learn something new.

Sounds a lot like my gaming group. I wouldn't count on many people dropping off -- my experience is that the family groups tend to stick around, as the kids are eager to keep playing with their peers and the parents eager to spend time with their kids. So I'd definitely go with two groups, though I think you might wind up with two permanent groups rather than half dropping out. Kids these days are feeling the magic!

If it were me, I'd also consider running a slightly bigger group but telling the folks we don't like that the game is full.

OSE or the like is awesome. I use 100% homebrew system that's not even all that D&D-like with my "D&D players". They don't care - the game winds up being as cinematic as  we make it. Simplicity is important though -- I find about half the kids and almost none of the parents read the rulebook, so rules that can be easily learned during play are key.

You need to decide if you really want to run for a larger group or not.  It can be done. It can be fun.  I even prefer it!  But it definitely changes the game and sets different parameters for making it work.  Assuming you are at least willing to give it a shot:

- You need a simpler game.  Complications are not your friend, especially earlier.  I'd go with D&D B/X or one of the clones.

- Whatever you pick, it must use side vs side initiative or something similar.  3E or 5E style cyclic initiative is a combat killer once you go over 6-8 players, and in some cases can bite even in that range.

- Think of a big party like that as a combination of PCs and henchmen, only all the henchmen are played by a person.  Roll up characters using the default rules.  if someone gets a sucky character for a time, either they'll grow out of it, or they'll die fast.

- Speaking of which, character death is not a problem.  When a 5 person party loses two members, it's risky to keep going while 2 new characters are created.  When a 12 person party loses two members, you just keep on chugging, bringing the replacements back in when they are ready.

- All that said, if you have a regular or even semi-regular game, rarely will all 12 players show.  You will in fact have quite a few games in the 6-8 range, a few more on either side of that, and occasionally you'll get the full group.  Make up your adventures to fit this changing dynamic, either using a home base that characters plausibly return to or just ignore it and narrate how people come and go.  (Everyone's got a different tolerance here. You need to find yours.)

- The players must learn how to play in a big group. It's never only the GM's job to keep a game moving, though it can seem that way sometimes.   The more players you have, the more true that is.  You don't need help from all the players, but you do need help from at least 2 or 3 of them.  You don't necessarily need to use an old-school caller to funnel all decisions, but you do need some kind of organization on the chaos.  Find the natural leaders in your players, and explicitly, outside the game, enlist their help.  If things get out of control, stop the game and organize it back into control, then start it up again. There's excitement which is contagious and fun, and then there's a couple of players being attention hogs and spiraling the game out of control.

I think it is really cool that you are going to GM for some families.  Just don't let them turn you into a babysitter.

Regarding stunts like jumping on the troll's back, just make it a dex check (roll under dex, or beat a number and add dex modifier, your choice), and then have the make the attack roll.  Have there be some consequence to missing the check like they are prone and  the creatures get a bonus to attack them while lying on the ground, and make sure that they know the potential consequences.

When it comes to initiative, seat the players with the highest dex scores to the right of you, and then make them go first then the next highest to that person's right, and so on.  Now you have your initiative order.  You could still have side based initiative each round, with every player taking turns at the roll.  This way everyone is involved in the process. 

I'm getting a lot of really good feedback. Thank you all.

I'm leaning towards TBH or a derivative of it. I did see another game called Into the Unknown. It's billed as an OS5 ruleset. It comes in booklet form. Does anyone have any experience with it?

First house rule for this group, as reading the description set off immediate alarm bells:

If a kid is playing, one or both of his/her parents is playing as well. If the parents can't play, neither can their kid. Otherwise you run the risk of this turning into a kids-only gaming group with you being saddled as the free babysitter.

Not saying this is the intent of anyone showing interest, but don't let someone turn your hobby into a child-care gig you didn't sign up for.

I might agree, for a twelve-person group. But when I ran my Dads+Kidz games, the kids were mostly friends of my daughter's. I was happy to run games with them so I and my kid had a robust gaming experience. There was always at least one other dad gaming, but I never felt like a babysitter.

Of course having been a teacher for years, maybe the whole scenario just felt normal to me.

I've run GURPS with twelve people before.  I just used around the room initiative with opponents going before or after each PC based on Speed.

But yeah, keep it simple, don't let everyone talk at once.  Let them pick a spokesman or caller to manage their input.  Don't let one player overtalk everyone else unless they're the caller.  Don't get too fancy with foes.  One big guy or one little guy per player is about right.  A map and miniatures might help or get in the way.  It really depends, the visual representation is good but the extra clutter is bad so make sure you've got maps and minis figured out in advance if you're going to use them.

They hardest thing is keeping everyone engaged because you don't want half a dozen side conversations going on while you DM.

I can't imagine the first time with everyone  remember to use a caller! Did you know the games you mention? Try to understand the system and improvise for everything else.

I recommend you Swords & Wizardry, and it's free. Take a look at the following products. You can use lulu if you want: https://www.lulu.com/search?contributor=Matthew+Finch

For beginners:

• https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/219477/Swords--Wizardry-Light
• https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/63665/Swords--Wizardry-Quick-Start
• https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/223909/Swords--Wizardry-Continual-Light

Then you can run:

• https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/190631/White-Box--Fantastic-Medieval-Adventure-Game
• https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/62346/Swords--Wizardry-Core-Rules
• https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/194536/White-Box-Expanded-Lore
• https://snw.smolderingwizard.com/viewtopic.php?t=4 - All Swords and Wizardry versions

System Reference Document (SRD)

• https://sites.google.com/site/swordsandwizardry/
• https://sites.google.com/site/swordsandwizardry/swords-and-wizardry-srd/for-players/how-to-play
• https://sites.google.com/site/swordsandwizardry/swords-and-wizardry-srd/for-players/combat

There are tons of adventure for Swords & Wizardry, here is one from Matt

• https://www.lulu.com/shop/matthew-finch/tomb-of-the-iron-god/ebook/product-3727728.html
• https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/252257/0e-Tomb-of-the-Iron-God-Swords--Wizardry

Oof. A good problem to have, rather than no players, but still a problem.

My thought is to run an open table and encourage multiple GMs, to split the load.

Quote from: Pen on April 10, 2023, 10:58:00 AM
My questions:

I'm thinking OSE or There and Hack Again (TBH but leaning towards classic fantasy), due to simplicity. However, how would I handle this type of action:

"I want to jump on a trolls back and shoot him with an arrow or stab him." 

I can see that type of action being ask for (LoTR - movie - type action). How would that work in a BX scenario?


I'm wondering if I need to pick a more cinematic type set of rules like Savage Worlds, Genesys, or the like.

In this situation, I'd make an opposed roll using the most relevant traits on both sides (DEX for the PC vs. STR for the troll to fling him off).  If they can manage to cover all of that distance within their speed allotment, then I would allow for the follow-up attack roll.  Otherwise, that would have to wait until the next turn, where if the troll hasn't acted yet, they would get yet another opportunity to kick the PC off of them.

If the PC manages to stay on the troll's back, then they would be in an advantageous position for both attacking and dealing damage.  In this case, I'd give them a +4 to hit and have them deal +4 damage.

Quote from: Pen on April 10, 2023, 02:36:08 PM
I'm getting a lot of really good feedback. Thank you all.

I'm leaning towards TBH or a derivative of it. I did see another game called Into the Unknown. It's billed as an OS5 ruleset. It comes in booklet form. Does anyone have any experience with it?

I'm currently creating an OSR-ish alternative to D&D, which I call DtwenD.  If you're looking for a system with simple yet highly-flexible fundamentals and you're a fan of rolling and adding dice over rolling just one die and then adding flat modifiers, check out my DtwenD Development Vlog playlist on my Quick & Dirty Roleplaying YouTube channel.

In my opinion, you should just use Moldvay Basic, without the Expert, at least at first. Explain that the game is about exploration and resource management and survival horror rather than heroic fantasy—it's more "The Walking Dead" with elves than it is "Lord of the Rings".

An experienced GM can run for 8. I would not go over that. If you're less inexperienced, I'd say cap at 6.