Hi all,
Apologies for all the text!
I'm in an interesting situation. I moved to a small town in the southern US. Finding any type of local gaming group (even board games) has been near impossible. I finally had a neighbor bring up that we should play a rpg. He knows I'm into them. I said yes. I was thinking four players plus me as GM. He wanted to bring his son. I said it was fine. He has now come to me with interest from other guys with their kids and a few of his sons friends. Two of kids I'm not fond of and my kids don't like. The number has gone up to 12 now not including me or my kids. I figured if kids were going to play than mine should be included.
What I was hoping would only be a few adults has turned into a family type gaming group. I'm sort of disappointed, but also happy to introduce the hobby. It's a weird situation. I told him that 12 is just too much. I offered to split the group and do two one shots so people can see if they like it. My thought is that the ones that love it could be do it more, as rpgs aren't for everyone. What I hoped would be a relaxing and fun campaign with adults has pretty much turned into me hosting a gaming community group. I'm starting to feel the pressure of planning it.
Advice: how would you handle this?
My questions:
I'm thinking OSE or There and Hack Again (TBH but leaning towards classic fantasy), due to simplicity. However, how would I handle this type of action:
"I want to jump on a trolls back and shoot him with an arrow or stab him."
I can see that type of action being ask for (LoTR - movie - type action). How would that work in a BX scenario?
I'm wondering if I need to pick a more cinematic type set of rules like Savage Worlds, Genesys, or the like.
Jeezus. All I can say is good luck running a group for 12. Good news is that a fair few of them will probably drop out after a few sessions and leave you with a more manageable number.
You don't need specific "stunt" rules to do that sort of thing. I might recommend something more abstract like There and Hack Again over OSE, where the rules are a little more concrete. But you can do it in any game.
In OSR type games I usually do that sort of thing as a modified attribute test. So jumping on a troll's back is going to be a Dex or Str check (up to you), and then depending on the system I'll change how I modify it. If I'm using a game that usually rolls with attribute checks with modifiers (i.e. I have 16 Str, so I have a +2 roll), I'll steal the ICRPG system, where all "Easy" rolls are at +3 and all "Hard" rolls are at -3. If I'm using a game where you roll under your attribute score for checks, I'll sometimes still use the +/- 3 system, but for newer players I'd probably instead go with an advantage/disadvantage system, just because they'll probably find it more intuitive. (I believe that's what most Black Hack derived rulesets do anyway).
To me, the important thing if you want to do that more cinematic style of game, is that trying out cinematic actions should be mechanically rewarded, and failing them not too severely punished. So for e.g., I might say something like "if you succeed in jumping on the troll's back, you'll get advantage on your attack, but if you fail you'll fall and take 1d4 damage" or something like that. If you punish risk-taking too harshly or fail to reward it, players will default back to "I hit it with my sword" every round.
As far as game choice goes, I would generally go for an abstract, rules-light game for newbies and kids. I don't know There and Hack Again that well, but from what I remember it has some weird rules designed to specifically emulate Lord of the Rings. If you want a more general fantasy ruleset, you might prefer By This Axe I Hack, from the same publisher. It's intended for Sword & Sorcery, so it has no races other than human, but from my understanding it has a more conventional class structure and magic system. If you an even more traditional Elves-Dwarves-&-Wizards fantasy, you might even go back to the original Black Hack. there's also Index Card RPG and EZD6. Both are very easy to learn, and so stripped down they don't even have leveling up. All these games are also extremely cheap, which I regard as a major asset for new players. They can buy their own copies of the book, without having invested too much if they turn out not to like it.
The only caveat I'll put on that is that there is one big advantage to starting a new group on D&D. Namely, that it's then much easier to convert the group into other games. That said, all the games mentioned above are similar enough to D&D that it isn't a huge jump (except possibly EZD6), and the people who become devoted to the hobby won't mind the effort to learn something new.
Sounds a lot like my gaming group. I wouldn't count on many people dropping off -- my experience is that the family groups tend to stick around, as the kids are eager to keep playing with their peers and the parents eager to spend time with their kids. So I'd definitely go with two groups, though I think you might wind up with two permanent groups rather than half dropping out. Kids these days are feeling the magic!
If it were me, I'd also consider running a slightly bigger group but telling the folks we don't like that the game is full.
OSE or the like is awesome. I use 100% homebrew system that's not even all that D&D-like with my "D&D players". They don't care - the game winds up being as cinematic as we make it. Simplicity is important though -- I find about half the kids and almost none of the parents read the rulebook, so rules that can be easily learned during play are key.
You need to decide if you really want to run for a larger group or not. It can be done. It can be fun. I even prefer it! But it definitely changes the game and sets different parameters for making it work. Assuming you are at least willing to give it a shot:
- You need a simpler game. Complications are not your friend, especially earlier. I'd go with D&D B/X or one of the clones.
- Whatever you pick, it must use side vs side initiative or something similar. 3E or 5E style cyclic initiative is a combat killer once you go over 6-8 players, and in some cases can bite even in that range.
- Think of a big party like that as a combination of PCs and henchmen, only all the henchmen are played by a person. Roll up characters using the default rules. if someone gets a sucky character for a time, either they'll grow out of it, or they'll die fast.
- Speaking of which, character death is not a problem. When a 5 person party loses two members, it's risky to keep going while 2 new characters are created. When a 12 person party loses two members, you just keep on chugging, bringing the replacements back in when they are ready.
- All that said, if you have a regular or even semi-regular game, rarely will all 12 players show. You will in fact have quite a few games in the 6-8 range, a few more on either side of that, and occasionally you'll get the full group. Make up your adventures to fit this changing dynamic, either using a home base that characters plausibly return to or just ignore it and narrate how people come and go. (Everyone's got a different tolerance here. You need to find yours.)
- The players must learn how to play in a big group. It's never only the GM's job to keep a game moving, though it can seem that way sometimes. The more players you have, the more true that is. You don't need help from all the players, but you do need help from at least 2 or 3 of them. You don't necessarily need to use an old-school caller to funnel all decisions, but you do need some kind of organization on the chaos. Find the natural leaders in your players, and explicitly, outside the game, enlist their help. If things get out of control, stop the game and organize it back into control, then start it up again. There's excitement which is contagious and fun, and then there's a couple of players being attention hogs and spiraling the game out of control.
I think it is really cool that you are going to GM for some families. Just don't let them turn you into a babysitter.
Regarding stunts like jumping on the troll's back, just make it a dex check (roll under dex, or beat a number and add dex modifier, your choice), and then have the make the attack roll. Have there be some consequence to missing the check like they are prone and the creatures get a bonus to attack them while lying on the ground, and make sure that they know the potential consequences.
When it comes to initiative, seat the players with the highest dex scores to the right of you, and then make them go first then the next highest to that person's right, and so on. Now you have your initiative order. You could still have side based initiative each round, with every player taking turns at the roll. This way everyone is involved in the process.
I'm getting a lot of really good feedback. Thank you all.
I'm leaning towards TBH or a derivative of it. I did see another game called Into the Unknown. It's billed as an OS5 ruleset. It comes in booklet form. Does anyone have any experience with it?
First house rule for this group, as reading the description set off immediate alarm bells:
If a kid is playing, one or both of his/her parents is playing as well. If the parents can't play, neither can their kid. Otherwise you run the risk of this turning into a kids-only gaming group with you being saddled as the free babysitter.
Not saying this is the intent of anyone showing interest, but don't let someone turn your hobby into a child-care gig you didn't sign up for.
I might agree, for a twelve-person group. But when I ran my Dads+Kidz games, the kids were mostly friends of my daughter's. I was happy to run games with them so I and my kid had a robust gaming experience. There was always at least one other dad gaming, but I never felt like a babysitter.
Of course having been a teacher for years, maybe the whole scenario just felt normal to me.
I've run GURPS with twelve people before. I just used around the room initiative with opponents going before or after each PC based on Speed.
But yeah, keep it simple, don't let everyone talk at once. Let them pick a spokesman or caller to manage their input. Don't let one player overtalk everyone else unless they're the caller. Don't get too fancy with foes. One big guy or one little guy per player is about right. A map and miniatures might help or get in the way. It really depends, the visual representation is good but the extra clutter is bad so make sure you've got maps and minis figured out in advance if you're going to use them.
They hardest thing is keeping everyone engaged because you don't want half a dozen side conversations going on while you DM.
I can't imagine the first time with everyone ;D remember to use a caller! Did you know the games you mention? Try to understand the system and improvise for everything else.
I recommend you
Swords & Wizardry, and it's
free. Take a look at the following products. You can use lulu if you want: https://www.lulu.com/search?contributor=Matthew+Finch
For beginners:
- https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/219477/Swords--Wizardry-Light
- https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/63665/Swords--Wizardry-Quick-Start
- https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/223909/Swords--Wizardry-Continual-Light
Then you can run:
- https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/190631/White-Box--Fantastic-Medieval-Adventure-Game
- https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/62346/Swords--Wizardry-Core-Rules
- https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/194536/White-Box-Expanded-Lore
- https://snw.smolderingwizard.com/viewtopic.php?t=4 - All Swords and Wizardry versions
System Reference Document (SRD)
- https://sites.google.com/site/swordsandwizardry/
- https://sites.google.com/site/swordsandwizardry/swords-and-wizardry-srd/for-players/how-to-play
- https://sites.google.com/site/swordsandwizardry/swords-and-wizardry-srd/for-players/combat
There are tons of adventure for Swords & Wizardry, here is one from Matt
- https://www.lulu.com/shop/matthew-finch/tomb-of-the-iron-god/ebook/product-3727728.html
- https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/252257/0e-Tomb-of-the-Iron-God-Swords--Wizardry
Oof. A good problem to have, rather than no players, but still a problem.
My thought is to run an open table (https://thealexandrian.net/wordpress/38643/roleplaying-games/open-table-manifesto) and encourage multiple GMs, to split the load.
Quote from: Pen on April 10, 2023, 10:58:00 AM
My questions:
I'm thinking OSE or There and Hack Again (TBH but leaning towards classic fantasy), due to simplicity. However, how would I handle this type of action:
"I want to jump on a trolls back and shoot him with an arrow or stab him."
I can see that type of action being ask for (LoTR - movie - type action). How would that work in a BX scenario?
I'm wondering if I need to pick a more cinematic type set of rules like Savage Worlds, Genesys, or the like.
In this situation, I'd make an opposed roll using the most relevant traits on both sides (DEX for the PC vs. STR for the troll to fling him off). If they can manage to cover all of that distance within their speed allotment, then I would allow for the follow-up attack roll. Otherwise, that would have to wait until the next turn, where if the troll hasn't acted yet, they would get yet another opportunity to kick the PC off of them.
If the PC manages to stay on the troll's back, then they would be in an advantageous position for both attacking and dealing damage. In this case, I'd give them a +4 to hit and have them deal +4 damage.
Quote from: Pen on April 10, 2023, 02:36:08 PM
I'm getting a lot of really good feedback. Thank you all.
I'm leaning towards TBH or a derivative of it. I did see another game called Into the Unknown. It's billed as an OS5 ruleset. It comes in booklet form. Does anyone have any experience with it?
I'm currently creating an OSR-ish alternative to D&D, which I call DtwenD. If you're looking for a system with simple yet highly-flexible fundamentals and you're a fan of rolling and adding dice over rolling just one die and then adding flat modifiers, check out my DtwenD Development Vlog playlist on my Quick & Dirty Roleplaying YouTube channel.
In my opinion, you should just use Moldvay Basic, without the Expert, at least at first. Explain that the game is about exploration and resource management and survival horror rather than heroic fantasy—it's more "The Walking Dead" with elves than it is "Lord of the Rings".
An experienced GM can run for 8. I would not go over that. If you're less inexperienced, I'd say cap at 6.
Hell, I have my hands full with five. I can't even imagine running for twelve.
With children, once they get past the age of 10-11 (your mileage may vary), they get surprisingly easy to work with in a D&D game. This is, admittedly, based on my own experience with running for kids. They wanna do the cool stuff, and RPGs will oblige them. :) But you won't be able to run a super-serious game, so if that's your jam, you may need to rethink the whole thing.
I would definitely recruit an extra DM, and possibly even break it into two gaming groups. But that's just my opinion.
Quote from: Cathal on April 10, 2023, 11:33:57 PM
I can't imagine the first time with everyone ;D remember to use a caller! Did you know the games you mention? Try to understand the system and improvise for everything else. I recommend you Swords & Wizardry. Take a look at the following products. You can use lulu if you want: https://www.lulu.com/search?contributor=Matthew+Finch
For beginners:
- https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/219477/Swords--Wizardry-Light
- https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/63665/Swords--Wizardry-Quick-Start
- https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/223909/Swords--Wizardry-Continual-Light
Then you can run:
- https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/190631/White-Box--Fantastic-Medieval-Adventure-Game
- https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/62346/Swords--Wizardry-Core-Rules
- https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/194536/White-Box-Expanded-Lore
System Reference Document (SRD)
- https://sites.google.com/site/swordsandwizardry/
- https://sites.google.com/site/swordsandwizardry/swords-and-wizardry-srd/for-players/how-to-play
- https://sites.google.com/site/swordsandwizardry/swords-and-wizardry-srd/for-players/combat
There are tons of adventure for Swords & Wizardry, here is one from Matt
- https://www.lulu.com/shop/matthew-finch/tomb-of-the-iron-god/ebook/product-3727728.html
- https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/252257/0e-Tomb-of-the-Iron-God-Swords--Wizardry
I'll check these out. Thank you!
Swords and Wizardry is very good and the saving throw is a great generic task resolution mechanism- when they try something weird, tell them to roll a save. With attribute mod if you like.
Every GM has 3 limits. Many GM's only know about one of them:
- Minimum number of players that will work for the game.
- Maximum number of players that will work for running where everything is "player facing".
- Maximum number of players that will work when as much as possible is "party facing".
That middle one is often in the 4-6 range. For me, it's more like 5-8, but no doubt that's because of all the time spent running party facing style. My minimum is higher than most people, too, no doubt the same reason. I hate running a game for 3 or 4 players, and you can forget 2.
It's not a smooth curve, either, where you, say, are quite happy running for 5, are coping with 6, and just need to change this or that to manage 7. There's a mental shift that has to take place to run in the upper range, different habits, etc. Doesn't mean you can't push the upper limit (especially when fully energized) but you very quickly hit the wall if you don't adjust.
My ideal "party facing" group size is 7-10 players. Below that, I've got to adjust my style back to "player facing", which might not be what I was ramped up to do. I can expand on up to the 11 or 12 range in some cases without much trouble, but I'm more tired after the session. 15 is my absolute upper limit. When running in the 13-15 range, I have to keep the session under 6 hours, and going to 6 hours leaves me absolutely exhausted.
I don't recommend 12 even for someone who is gung ho to try that style, not at first. If you can get somewhere in the 7-9 range, and occasionally brush higher, maybe. Just plan to shorten the session a little, one way or another. (If you don't explicitly shorten it, it will get shortened for you by some time spent mucking around not gaming. Which is OK if you don't mind that kind of socializing. Just realize that it is going to be shorter.) However, this might be better handled in its own topic, if Pen or anyone else wants to go there. It's kind of a side thing from running the game in general.
Quote from: Ghostmaker on April 11, 2023, 08:43:36 AM
Hell, I have my hands full with five. I can't even imagine running for twelve.
With children, once they get past the age of 10-11 (your mileage may vary), they get surprisingly easy to work with in a D&D game. This is, admittedly, based on my own experience with running for kids. They wanna do the cool stuff, and RPGs will oblige them. :) But you won't be able to run a super-serious game, so if that's your jam, you may need to rethink the whole thing.
I would definitely recruit an extra DM, and possibly even break it into two gaming groups. But that's just my opinion.
Just tell them they have to put their phones away, or they don't get to play. Unless, of course, they are using their phones to play.
Quote from: Pen on April 11, 2023, 12:23:07 PM
I'll check these out. Thank you!
The game is free I forgot to mention, I already updated the post. You can download all the version from here: https://snw.smolderingwizard.com/viewtopic.php?t=4
There is a new kickstarter for S&W revised edition, if you are interested
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/adventuredesigntome/swords-and-wizardry-complete-revised-rulebook
How to DM Games With Lots of Players
Quote from: Pen on April 10, 2023, 10:58:00 AM
However, how would I handle this type of action:
"I want to jump on a trolls back and shoot him with an arrow or stab him."
In B/X: make a paralysis saving throw (or roll under Str or Dex) to succeed without falling. Gain the benefits of the thief's backstab.
I wouldn't consider myself a gifted GM, but I have MC'd large groups like this, before.
Appearances are probably deceiving because you are probably not going to have 12 players at one table playing one game. What you're actually looking at is three tables forming, each playing a different game, and I would wager at least one of the tables (if not two) would rather just play board games. It's likely you'll have one consistent RPG group, one one-off or medium-cut board game group, and one lightweight board game group. And once you actually get going, you'll probably only have 50-75% attendance on any given night, so it may wind up only being two tables in actual practice.
The real question is does that sound doable? Just doing the event coordination to GM a single table is already a handful. This will have way more coming and going as players duck into the RPG campaign for a night, then decide they'd rather go play Liars Dice the next night. It may also be a discipline headache; children playing games at their own tables may be too much to ask if the children are too young, aren't well behaved, or if an adult doesn't play along with them and supervise.
That said, when you have 12-15 people, it's much easier to pot-luck with drinks and chips and entrees and sides, so there's that.
If at least one other person expecting to attend regularly is an experienced GM or event MC, I think this is quite doable, it just doesn't quite look like your traditional game night.
Since it's neighbors, I hope you're good at politics and de-escalation, because the chance that all 12 players, including ones that don't like each other, don't end up with noses out of joint is vanishingly small.
Split in to two groups of 6, try and get the cats and dogs separated. Be pleasant, but as others have said, don't become a babysitter.
You'll probably be down to one manageable group that actually enjoys gaming pretty quickly. Best of luck, hope you guys have a good time.
I'd split it into an adults group and a kids group. If they're mixed the grown up are going to take the lead and the kids won't get to fully participate.
12 can be done, but it depends on the DM's ability and and cooperation of the group. I regularly ran games with that many players in high school, and each player had multiple characters. I also played in such a group at a friend's fraternity in college. The key is that in combat you have to get each character's turn done in about 20 seconds, barring exceptional circumstances; much longer than that and people get bored between their turns, disengage, take longer to do their own turn, and it's just a downward spiral.
I did something similar a few years ago. My son wanted a D&D party for his 12th (I think) birthday and about 15 kids were invited. None of them had ever played an RPG. I wanted to just play, not waste time telling them how it was done, and I didn't have a sufficiently simple game to do that. So I wrote a 1 page bare bones game, made up about two dozen characters that they could pick from with distinctive abilities like "sword guy," "blaster," "archer," "brick," "healer," "summoner," etc. The mechanic was roll d6, add your skill, and I'll tell you what happens. (There were real resolution rules based on the roll, but they didn't need to know the details.) Oh, and we did use minis and a mat. We played for an hour, spent an hour doing boffer capture the flag in the back yard, cake and presents, and then back to the game for another hour to finish the adventure. Only seven of the kids wanted to come back and play the second bit, but they were really, really into it. The rest just did whatever. It was a really good experience and I thought I'd relate it to you in the hope that you might get some useful ideas from it.
Quote from: Steven Mitchell on April 10, 2023, 11:59:14 AM
- Whatever you pick, it must use side vs side initiative or something similar. 3E or 5E style cyclic initiative is a combat killer once you go over 6-8 players, and in some cases can bite even in that range.
I'm going to quibble with this bit. All three of the large games I mentioned above used individual initiative and ran just fine. I won't deny it can help if you're not used to running a large group, but it's not essential.
How to handle an unexpected large party? Be honest and declare that you need to pare down to your more comfortable numbers -- to adequately give them the attention them and their characters deserve ;) -- and ask who wants to learn the art of being a GM! 8) This way you are breaking up the mob into multiple tables of fun AND you can explain it through the adage: "feed someone a fish, fed for a day; teach someone to fish, fed for life."
When you explain through examples, like sports have team limits for reasons of manageability and someone to vie against, similarly other game events have limits based on the host's powers of engagement. 'Divide the work, make easier the task,' 'teach others to pay it forward,' and all those bromide axioms.
The hobby needs more GMs and active players. That is drawn from interest and then training their powers up to their capacity. But draw from interest first! Passion to be creative on one's off time is important for a treasure of a GM. Passion leads to curiosity, leads to self-learning, leads to refinement through self-practice and advice-seeking, etc.
Speaking honestly about your human limits, and your invitation to assist new GMs to start their own tables, allows you to fumble through your first few big tables by grounding their expectations more. Everyone outside primary grades understands you can't have everyone in the team on the field at the same time and the game make much sense. But there will be those who see the potential and get the itch to host new worlds of imagination! :)
Quote from: Mishihari on April 14, 2023, 12:31:23 AM
Quote from: Steven Mitchell on April 10, 2023, 11:59:14 AM
- Whatever you pick, it must use side vs side initiative or something similar. 3E or 5E style cyclic initiative is a combat killer once you go over 6-8 players, and in some cases can bite even in that range.
I'm going to quibble with this bit. All three of the large games I mentioned above used individual initiative and ran just fine. I won't deny it can help if you're not used to running a large group, but it's not essential.
If you can and will enforce your 20 seconds or less, and all the players are fully on board with that, yes. That's not easy to do with some groups. Side-by-side initiative in any even moderately complex system will run the same combat in 60% or less of the time. 40% of the time is not at all uncommon. More importantly, side-by-side scales linearly with the number of players, while cyclic scales exponentially. When you hit the point (and there is a point with every group) where people start to lose attention because of how long it takes to get back to them, then you've hit a wall that can easily send your pace into a death spiral. For someone learning how to run large groups, that's a ticking bomb you don't need.
Note that if you can just toss any initiative mechanics completely out of the game, and go around the table really fast, this will be less of an issue. But I'd argue that's not really cyclic in the way people normally mean, as the characters are having no effect on who goes when.
Quote from: Grognard GM on April 13, 2023, 11:11:53 PM
Since it's neighbors, I hope you're good at politics and de-escalation, because the chance that all 12 players, including ones that don't like each other, don't end up with noses out of joint is vanishingly small.
Split in to two groups of 6, try and get the cats and dogs separated. Be pleasant, but as others have said, don't become a babysitter.
You'll probably be down to one manageable group that actually enjoys gaming pretty quickly. Best of luck, hope you guys have a good time.
Thanks. I agree. I'm also definitely planning to have two separate game nights (each a one shot). Hopefully, the numbers then drop to one manageable group.
Quote from: Opaopajr on April 14, 2023, 05:18:22 AM
How to handle an unexpected large party? Be honest and declare that you need to pare down to your more comfortable numbers -- to adequately give them the attention them and their characters deserve ;) -- and ask who wants to learn the art of being a GM! 8) This way you are breaking up the mob into multiple tables of fun AND you can explain it through the adage: "feed someone a fish, fed for a day; teach someone to fish, fed for life."
When you explain through examples, like sports have team limits for reasons of manageability and someone to vie against, similarly other game events have limits based on the host's powers of engagement. 'Divide the work, make easier the task,' 'teach others to pay it forward,' and all those bromide axioms.
The hobby needs more GMs and active players. That is drawn from interest and then training their powers up to their capacity. But draw from interest first! Passion to be creative on one's off time is important for a treasure of a GM. Passion leads to curiosity, leads to self-learning, leads to refinement through self-practice and advice-seeking, etc.
Speaking honestly about your human limits, and your invitation to assist new GMs to start their own tables, allows you to fumble through your first few big tables by grounding their expectations more. Everyone outside primary grades understands you can't have everyone in the team on the field at the same time and the game make much sense. But there will be those who see the potential and get the itch to host new worlds of imagination! :)
Great advice. Thank you!
Quote from: Steven Mitchell on April 14, 2023, 07:50:26 AM
Quote from: Mishihari on April 14, 2023, 12:31:23 AM
Quote from: Steven Mitchell on April 10, 2023, 11:59:14 AM
- Whatever you pick, it must use side vs side initiative or something similar. 3E or 5E style cyclic initiative is a combat killer once you go over 6-8 players, and in some cases can bite even in that range.
I'm going to quibble with this bit. All three of the large games I mentioned above used individual initiative and ran just fine. I won't deny it can help if you're not used to running a large group, but it's not essential.
If you can and will enforce your 20 seconds or less, and all the players are fully on board with that, yes. That's not easy to do with some groups. Side-by-side initiative in any even moderately complex system will run the same combat in 60% or less of the time. 40% of the time is not at all uncommon. More importantly, side-by-side scales linearly with the number of players, while cyclic scales exponentially. When you hit the point (and there is a point with every group) where people start to lose attention because of how long it takes to get back to them, then you've hit a wall that can easily send your pace into a death spiral. For someone learning how to run large groups, that's a ticking bomb you don't need.
Note that if you can just toss any initiative mechanics completely out of the game, and go around the table really fast, this will be less of an issue. But I'd argue that's not really cyclic in the way people normally mean, as the characters are having no effect on who goes when.
Thinking back, I think some of the particulars about the system and methods helped a lot with keeping things moving in the games I ran. We were playing 1e and 2E with some house rules, and timing mattered a lot with spells taking a certain number of segments to cast and interruption results varying depending on when you got hit. We did a count up system with weapon speed and separate iterative attacks, so everyone had to pay attention to know when it was their turn. And I move pretty fast, I'd say about halfway between normal speech an an auctioneer. If you missed your turn, you got to go when you realized you were missed, no retcon, and if you somehow didn't speak up through the whole round, you're SOL. Anyway, everyone typically stayed engaged, a typical action was about 5 sec real time, and it was fun. I can believe that switching from individual initiative will speed things up, but it loses a lot of other things. I think I'd sooner give up my battlemats.
Hi all,
Thought I'd give you a report of what happened.
I settled on Heroic Fantasy a (black hack derivative). I bought the one-shot A Most Potent Brew, which a pretty straight forward and railroad type adventure. If you have read it, I changed the ale house to a cider house. I made up 7 pre gen characters because some people already told me that wanted to create a character. Since some kids were coming, printed out a map of the adventure, cut into segments so I could lay them out as they encountered each room. I used minis just to keep track of everyone. I used props like doors and such from Heroquest.
Eight people showed up; four of them were 13 year olds, only two of them had played a rpg before.
All but two of them ended up wanting to make their characters. I went with it and let them do it. I already had blank sheets printed out at the table just in case. In order to explain the classes, I had a picture for each one that demonstrated what they did (example: the rogue was hiding in the shadows waiting for a monster to strike). The barbarian was a picture of a raging Viking warrior. I explained the classes but the pictures really helped.
It took a bit for them to get into making their decisions and strategies but eventually they did. I dropped the torch usage die and some other things that was too much for them at the time. I let them do the big things like looking for traps, solving puzzles, fighting, listening and so forth.
They seemed to enjoy (I think). Honestly, it was hard for me to know because I was in the thick of making sure who wanted to go next and want they wanted to do. It was exhausting for me. They did ask if I wanted to schedule the next session. I said that we should figure out who wants to keep playing and then go from there.
Initiative wise, if they failed their DEX roll, they went after the monsters. It will still a burden to keep them knowing if they were in group A or B.
Overall, I think it went well. It wasn't overly fun for me though. It was a lot of work. Maybe the more accustomed to the rules they get, the easier it would be. I cannot imagine how hard it would be to DM 5e to a new group like that.