I was thinking about PC background after an exchange about "meaningful manure" in Call of Cthulhu.

In background, the idea of an "adventurer" in typical D&D settings has generally felt artificial to me, like something invented for the game rather than what one would expect of the setting. Especially the idea that the PCs would spend 100% of their time on missions, with no home or personal lives.

In fantasy fiction, the closest parallels would be Conan or Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser, but even those weren't full-time adventurers. Conan would spend months or years at some more typical job - like guard or mercenary or pirate - and then happen on a story-worthy adventure. Also, Conan would regularly have romances, something that some posters in the other thread objected to as a twisted woke idea in a game.

In my last two D&D campaigns, the PCs had religious motivations. One party were agents of a semi-divine patron (Ancestor-King Pachakuti). The other party were pilgrims/crusaders set on restoring a lost temple.

Do other people explore alternatives to there being the expectation of explicit "adventurers" wandering the setting -- like agents of a patron?

The "adventurer" lifestyle with little/no permanent roots is the basis of the murderhobo effect. I find more immersive settings reduce this somewhat, particularly Warhammer Fantasy as compared to most D&D worlds, but they don't necessarily eliminate it. OTOH, you have some settings that create context for adventuring lifestyles, like Earthdawn, Exalted, and Soulbound. In these latter, the PCs are typically elevated above the common person by their abilites/arcane power/divine favor making them super-hero-like and it makes some sense for them to have somewhat looser ties with the "normies" that inhabit the world. D&D settings often fail here because they can't decide if adventurers are (highly skilled but) regular people or (potential) super-heroes.

Quote from: jhkim on March 14, 2025, 02:38:32 PMDo other people explore alternatives to there being the expectation of explicit "adventurers" wandering the setting -- like agents of a patron?

Or mercenaries if it's a warlike setting.   I think a large part of this working in a non-D&D type world would be to meaningfully incorporate backstory into the player rules and experience beyond just a feat and two skills (and I think an attribute boost in 5.5 D&D now that they neutered races.. I mean species).   In my admittedly short experience in playing Forbidden Lands, our campaign did that and it improved the experience.   We all invested a skill point or three into things that could make us money beyond just murderhoboing but the game encouraged that with its sandbox hex crawl mechanics as core to the experience.   We weren't always looking for the next quest and rather stumbled upon one while doing something else (like hunting for food and profit).

Quote from: jhkim on March 14, 2025, 02:38:32 PMI was thinking about PC background after an exchange about "meaningful manure" in Call of Cthulhu.

In background, the idea of an "adventurer" in typical D&D settings has generally felt artificial to me, like something invented for the game rather than what one would expect of the setting. Especially the idea that the PCs would spend 100% of their time on missions, with no home or personal lives.

In fantasy fiction, the closest parallels would be Conan or Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser, but even those weren't full-time adventurers. Conan would spend months or years at some more typical job - like guard or mercenary or pirate - and then happen on a story-worthy adventure. Also, Conan would regularly have romances, something that some posters in the other thread objected to as a twisted woke idea in a game.

In my last two D&D campaigns, the PCs had religious motivations. One party were agents of a semi-divine patron (Ancestor-King Pachakuti). The other party were pilgrims/crusaders set on restoring a lost temple.

Do other people explore alternatives to there being the expectation of explicit "adventurers" wandering the setting -- like agents of a patron?

Establishing a "frontier" where nations and Empires haven't fully established themselves (but might be looking) - "Adventurers" would be those groups going in there and finding out what's in there.

Perfect place to put some "place of legend" where there are dangerous forests/jungles/mountains etc. the PC's have to negotiate, littered with ruins and secrets and.../drum roll Dungeons!

Adventurers would be like gold-rush miners before the "authorities" arrive (if ever). And the emerging politics can always add more spice to the game - vying factions trying to control the region and access to it. More interesting things might be monstrous tribes in the region, or sentients that "protect" the secrets for reasons only they remember (or has it been so long they've misremembered something important?).

This is pretty easy and fun stuff that only builds on itself.

I have been working on an rpg system of my own that utilizes backgrounds, but it is based on magical girls, who are much closer to regular people, most of them being students of one kind or another.

Backgrounds might not be the best choice for all systems and settings.

Personally, I like to have my PCs being members of some organization that can send them on missions, if only because it bypasses all the will-they-won't-they fuckery around inventing reasons for a party to work together or agree to go on adventures. But I find that the freelance adventurer is one of those tropes that's so embedded in roleplaying culture that it's an uphill battle to get people to accept their characters owing allegiance to anyone.

The internal tension the OP recognizes between "professional" adventurers as a gameplay consideration and setting verisimilitude is almost certainly what led the the development of modern fantasy tropes like the "Adventurers' Guild", complete with job notice boards and in extreme cases, ranks, accreditation systems and pension plans. It's an attempted compromise between giving adventurers a coherent place in the world while still letting them be freelance wanderers.

That said, a few settings do go out of tehir way to establish that professional adventurers are a fact of life in the game world. Cyberpunk would be the most famous example, I think. The Brancalonia setting for 5e does a similar thing, canonizing the idea that the kingdom is structured so mercenary companies have a semi-official recognized status in the social system.

I think you just keep in mind that most of what adventurers do is mercenary work. They're mercenaries and/or treasure hunters.

In my own game I did play around with the idea that adventurers are a distinct social class or profession with potential licensing restrictions, sponsorships, etc. but that's another story.

Quote from: ForgottenF on March 14, 2025, 05:06:13 PMThe internal tension the OP recognizes between "professional" adventurers as a gameplay consideration and setting verisimilitude is almost certainly what led the the development of modern fantasy tropes like the "Adventurers' Guild", complete with job notice boards and in extreme cases, ranks, accreditation systems and pension plans. It's an attempted compromise between giving adventurers a coherent place in the world while still letting them be freelance wanderers.

An "Adventurer's Guild" has the same issue as an "adventurer" profession. It feels out of place especially since there is nothing like that either in real-world history or in the inspirational fiction for D&D like Conan or Lord of the Rings.

At various times, a freelance criminal gang or posse of gunslingers would be normal - but that's different. I think _Shadowrun_ did a decent job of making "shadowrunners" a believable grouping, since small criminal gangs fit both the fiction and reality.

Likewise, mercenaries were certainly a medieval reality - but they were very different from what is considered the norm for adventurers. A mercenary band would be expected to be hired for various armed conflicts, guard duty, etc. - the sort that is rather different than typical D&D adventures.

Quote from: tenbones on March 14, 2025, 04:26:09 PM

Quote from: jhkim on March 14, 2025, 02:38:32 PMDo other people explore alternatives to there being the expectation of explicit "adventurers" wandering the setting -- like agents of a patron?

Establishing a "frontier" where nations and Empires haven't fully established themselves (but might be looking) - "Adventurers" would be those groups going in there and finding out what's in there.

Perfect place to put some "place of legend" where there are dangerous forests/jungles/mountains etc. the PC's have to negotiate, littered with ruins and secrets and.../drum roll Dungeons!

Adventurers would be like gold-rush miners before the "authorities" arrive (if ever).

I agree that there have been periods like this, but it's tied to the time and place. For example, gold-rush miners were a very localized and brief phenomenon of a few years (1849 northern California). Most D&D settings picture adventurers as an understood practice everywhere in the game-world.

Quote from: jhkim on March 14, 2025, 06:24:12 PMAn "Adventurer's Guild" has the same issue as an "adventurer" profession. It feels out of place especially since there is nothing like that either in real-world history or in the inspirational fiction for D&D like Conan or Lord of the Rings.

That's only an issue if you care about emulating either real-world history or mid-20th century fiction. Most people who play with those kind of tropes don't. Their inspirational fiction is other games and anime. Adventurers' guilds are pretty common in videogames and very common in manga/anime.

I'd say it's more a matter of exchanging one set of problems for another. If you're going for historical/grounded, you would reject the concept of an adventurers' guild, but then you have to deal with the fact that very few real-world societies are tolerant of heavily armed vagabonds. Even recognized mercenary groups would be treated with extreme distrust when not in active wartime service (and often then as well). If you go with the unrealistic "adventurers' guild" style, then you have to start asking questions about who finances it, regulates it, how much political power it wields, and most significantly: What kind of world generates enough adventuring work to maintain this institution?

In both cases I think the existence of an adventuring profession pushes the world design in a particular direction in order to maintain coherence. In the former case, it pushes it towards lawlessness (the frontier solution previously mentioned or the extreme lawlessness of a place like Night City). In the latter, it pushes it towards higher and higher fantasy (in order to have monsters and dungeons be ubiquitous enough to make sense of the profession).

My preference is for neither, for the record. I'd rather run a more grounded world and fit my PCs into the social order of that world, whether that's as government agents, private investigators, retainers to some magnate, members of a criminal organization, or whatever. That's more interesting to me, but like I said in my first comment, the "adventurer" is a concept thoroughly ingrained in the culture of RPGs, and sometimes you have to pick your battles.

Quote from: jhkim on March 14, 2025, 06:24:12 PMI agree that there have been periods like this, but it's tied to the time and place. For example, gold-rush miners were a very localized and brief phenomenon of a few years (1849 northern California). Most D&D settings picture adventurers as an understood practice everywhere in the game-world.

Ronin in late medieval Japan and the Golden Age of Piracy would be examples, too. I know that like the Wild West, the Golden Age of Piracy did not last long. Japanese history is not my forte, but I believe the (for lack of a better term) Chanbara-era didn't last too long either. In all cases governments acted quickly to stamp out this kind of thing.

When people think of medieval European adventurers, they're usually thinking of something like the Free Companies or the Italian Condottieri, but you're right, those were more like private armies than anything else. That or they're thinking more of literary sources like the Arthurian romances.

Quote from: ForgottenF on March 14, 2025, 08:26:41 PM

Quote from: jhkim on March 14, 2025, 06:24:12 PMAn "Adventurer's Guild" has the same issue as an "adventurer" profession. It feels out of place especially since there is nothing like that either in real-world history or in the inspirational fiction for D&D like Conan or Lord of the Rings.

That's only an issue if you care about emulating either real-world history or mid-20th century fiction. Most people who play with those kind of tropes don't. Their inspirational fiction is other games and anime. Adventurers' guilds are pretty common in videogames and very common in manga/anime.

I'd say it's more a matter of exchanging one set of problems for another. If you're going for historical/grounded, you would reject the concept of an adventurers' guild, but then you have to deal with the fact that very few real-world societies are tolerant of heavily armed vagabonds.

Quote from: ForgottenF on March 14, 2025, 08:26:41 PMMy preference is for neither, for the record. I'd rather run a more grounded world and fit my PCs into the social order of that world, whether that's as government agents, private investigators, retainers to some magnate, members of a criminal organization, or whatever. That's more interesting to me, but like I said in my first comment, the "adventurer" is a concept thoroughly ingrained in the culture of RPGs, and sometimes you have to pick your battles.

I think it's good to remind people about alternate approaches, even if most people are going to stick to "adventurer". In this case, "winning the battle" is just maybe convincing a handful of people to try alternatives.

I agree about PCs fitting into the existing social order rather than being armed vagabonds. Pendragon has PCs be Knights of the Round Table, who are more a loose sort of government agents rather than vagabonds.

One thing is that it's also possible for PCs to be mercenaries like Conan, just that it means interspersing some regular jobs that can be glossed over in a few minutes rather than going 100% from adventure to adventure. (It's the same as agents, who typically have regular lives in between missions.)

Players: We'll take up being caravan guards for the season, and then see where that leads us.
GM: That sounds good. Mark 150 gold for the season, and in November, you run into a strange situation in the city of Xardis.

Keep in mind also that most fantasy settings are full to the brim with monsters everywhere. That definitely alters the normal dynamics you would have in history or even in fiction. It could be more acceptable to let people wander around armed if you knew you could reliably pay them to save you from the eternal bandit raids and demon incursions.

Middle Earth does suggest at least some kind of adventurer, a "burglar" or someone who gets sent in to grab treasure, including from monster lairs.

Quote from: jhkim on March 14, 2025, 10:03:38 PM

Quote from: ForgottenF on March 14, 2025, 08:26:41 PM

Quote from: jhkim on March 14, 2025, 06:24:12 PMAn "Adventurer's Guild" has the same issue as an "adventurer" profession. It feels out of place especially since there is nothing like that either in real-world history or in the inspirational fiction for D&D like Conan or Lord of the Rings.

That's only an issue if you care about emulating either real-world history or mid-20th century fiction. Most people who play with those kind of tropes don't. Their inspirational fiction is other games and anime. Adventurers' guilds are pretty common in videogames and very common in manga/anime.

I'd say it's more a matter of exchanging one set of problems for another. If you're going for historical/grounded, you would reject the concept of an adventurers' guild, but then you have to deal with the fact that very few real-world societies are tolerant of heavily armed vagabonds.

Quote from: ForgottenF on March 14, 2025, 08:26:41 PMOne thing is that it's also possible for PCs to be mercenaries like Conan, just that it means interspersing some regular jobs that can be glossed over in a few minutes rather than going 100% from adventure to adventure. (It's the same as agents, who typically have regular lives in between missions.)

Players: We'll take up being caravan guards for the season, and then see where that leads us.
GM: That sounds good. Mark 150 gold for the season, and in November, you run into a strange situation in the city of Xardis.

I thought this was what most people did anyway. That's why you have backgrounds and rules for earning money through working, or Profession checks in 3rd edition.

Quote from: ForgottenF on March 14, 2025, 08:39:39 PMRonin in late medieval Japan and the Golden Age of Piracy would be examples, too. I know that like the Wild West, the Golden Age of Piracy did not last long. Japanese history is not my forte, but I believe the (for lack of a better term) Chanbara-era didn't last too long either. In all cases governments acted quickly to stamp out this kind of thing.

The thing about an RPG campaign though is that most can easily fit into such a period. You don't actually need centuries or millennia where adventurers have a reasonable place in the world, just a campaign or three long period where they do have a place.

I know in my own setting, the campaigns I run are all set in a relatively narrow window of about twenty to forty years (location depending) between when the post-apocalyptic civilizations reach a point of stability where they stop worrying about mere survival and begin looking to exploit the monster-haunted ruin-filled wilds beyond their walls and the point where civilisation has largely reclaimed the wilds and the opportunities for independent profiteering adventures significantly dry up.

This provides some built-in tension too as its essentially a land rush with adventurers seeking the best ruins to plunder and land to clear to claim as their own freeholds. A century after the period ends the names of the successful ones will be the noble houses ruling settled lands where adventurers aren't needed.