There's quite a few wargames these days, especially skirmish games, that blur the line a bit between rpgs and wargame.  I'm talking about games such as those offered by Two Hour Wargames (ATZ, Sixgun Sound, Warrior Heroes), Fourcolor Studios (Delves, Supersystem), and also giving a nod to perhaps the best known- Savage Worlds.  I suppose you could say that anyone playing OD&D has been doing this all along:)

Just wondering if anyone here used a wargame and just roleplayed on top of it.  I grabbed the Supersystem 4th rules the other day, and going through them, they seem to be a great way of playing supers with mini's on the tabletop.  That got me thinking of just using them to use as an rpg.

Quote from: RunningLaser;821261Just wondering if anyone here used a wargame and just roleplayed on top of it.

I've just about always done some amount of roleplaying while playing wargames, even ones that are chit-based or involving armored units like Ogre. For me it's hard not to see the battle from the viewpoint of whatever forces it represents... the commander of the forces and the various units themselves.
This goes double for games that push 'scenario' play... like early versions of Warhammer Fantasy/40K and Chaos In Carpathia.

I think the main difference that dissuades any ongoing RPG-type campaign is that most skirmish games/wargames don't have much support, in rules or setting, for what happens outside of combat, except maybe for training and buying better gear... AND that the combats in those games are often MUCH more equitably/plausibly deadly than the sort that most RPG Players are willing to engage in... there seldom any mechanics in place to pull punches for the characters because they're designed, at least somewhat, to be competitive. Characters are, at best, usually just improved combatants but are still subject to the same rules/risks as other units.
This doesn't seem like it would sit well with 'modern' RPG players who expect some degree of plot immunity (or readily available resurrection spells).

The Two Hour Wargames system allows for some units being delineated as 'Stars' (gosh I hate that term). While active the 'Star' designation means the character cannot be killed at all... but IIRC that quality can be lost in successive combats.

The fellow that writes the Two Hour Wargames systems used to have a diatribe against RPGs at the beginning of the rulebooks... despite his system creeping ever closer to being a full on RPG. I wonder if the newer books still have that bit of rant in them.

Yes, I've been experimenting with that quite a bit over the last few years. That blurred line between wargame and RPG is a place that I find endlessly intriguing. If I can decipher the Frenglish, I may be running a Cadwallon campaign starting next month, utilizing 15mm minis.

Quote from: TristramEvans;821265If I can decipher the Frenglish, I may be running a Cadwallon campaign starting next month, utilizing 15mm minis.

Despite having miniature/board-dependent combat isn't Cadwallon already solidly in the RPG camp? Or are you saying that because of that it sits on the borderline?
(I love the setting and its larger venue of Aarklash... kind of like a higher fantasy version of the Warhammer setting).

There's this game from Guidon called "Chainmail" that has a fantasy supplement but I'm not sure if it's got legs...

Quote from: Simlasa;821268Despite having miniature/board-dependent combat isn't Cadwallon already solidly in the RPG camp? Or are you saying that because of that it sits on the borderline?
(I love the setting and its larger venue of Aarklash... kind of like a higher fantasy version of the Warhammer setting).

It refers to itself as a "tactical rpg". Its heavy on the miniature rules and pushes the line, as much as if not more so D&D 4th (but in a different direction) between an rpg and miniature skirmish games such as Mordheim or HeroQuest.

Tried a bit of Matrix-style gaming using the Mythic GM Emulator for a minis game a while back, covering both combat and things like skill resolution and NPC interaction.  Basically, you choose an action and agree on the difficulty before rolling.  There are options for escalating the difficulty through the game, and a table of random keywords for inspiration if you feel you're getting stuck.

It started off with the players investigating disappearances in a village, which took them to a ghoul-haunted graveyard.  After dispatching the ghoul king (much hilarity as the players explored and argued for their characters' abilities), they found clues to suggest the disappearances were actually linked to a local smuggling ring.

In the absence of a GM or indeed a plot (and arguably a clue...), the random nature of the Mythic engine was both frustrating and at times amazingly atmospheric.  Thanks to a really, really bad roll, the players were shocked to see a key NPC witness murdered right in front of them, and the attacker escaped after a tense chase.

On the other hand, we went a bit too far off-piste.  Someone should have outlined the actual plot beforehand - we talked afterwards and putting a range of plot options on cards that were drawn through the game would have helped.  We were all actually exhausted by the end of the game, and the resolution kind of fizzled out.

Traditional minis games need a GM (or plot deck) to do hidden stuff well, although 2-Hour Wargames have their Potential Enemy Force system for handling the appearance and actions of NPCs.  Actually many of their games work as solo storyline and scenario generators.  Legends of Araby was the original one - it's as much a solo RPG as a wargame, offering you job opportunitied and recurring antagonists - but their current fantasy offerings do much the same.

Skill mechanics are actually fairly straightforward - wargames these days tend to have an obvious resolution mechanic that is easily adaptable.

On the other hand, boardgames do this kind of thing very well.  Myth is GM-less (shame it's almost incomprehensible as they skimped on translators). Descent, Imperial Assault and Level 7: Omega Protocol use one player as the antagonist.  Generally the game engine in these cases mirrors the player actions with more actions for the GM if the players use more of their abilities.

My son Bill and I played a bunch of Warhammer Fantasy Battle as an RPG-cum-battle game recenly, with PCs commanding troops and one player GMing the opposition. We used Legacy of the Crystal Shard from WotC, the campaign setting book & screen with encounter tables worked great for setting up battle play, and we ignored the linear scenario book.

We did it way back in the day with Squad Leader and Kingmaker.

I guess I'm doing that in reverse by using the Labyrinth Lord RPG supplement An Echo Resounding to play a Domain level game that is mostly "War Game" and so far almost no Role Play.

I'm also doing the same thing (reverse engineering war-gaming stuff into an RPG). It was born out of a dissatisfaction with the "Boarding" rules in Earthdawn's Airship Combat section (much much too abstract, just Crew Size vs Crew Size). I wanted a more OSR feel, and got inspired by how simple stat-blocks were in old D&D editions, where you could essentially run a block of troops with a single toss of Xd20s for attack rolls. But rolling multiple times was what I wanted to avoid. I also wanted to encourage the PCs to use this system, to get that classic henchmen/hirelings feel.

So I'm adding to the Earthdawn 'Leadership' rules, to include a basic mass-combat system (units and swarms) where one roll simulates the attacks of the whole group at once. Units/Swarms are groups of 2+ normal character stat-blocks scaled up with a Unit/Swarm Size stat. Any character can lead up to Charisma Step others, either as a separate "character" or if their stats and equipment are the same as the leaders, just as part of the Unit. This caps most units at their Charisma Step +1 if they're all of the same basic stats, or a characters with the Leadership skill or talent can organize them into bigger units of up to Size 20 each (maximum of Leadership rank * 20 followers). Swarms have no leader and no Size cap(& you can't roll Tactics to give them bonuses or give them commands to move on a Leader's initiative count - see below.

Before making their Actions, Leaders can sacrifice 2 points of initiative (I settled on 2) to allow any separate unit/character under their command to start a movement action on the leader's new initiative result.  These troops must wait until their rolled initiative to use their standard action. The Leader can command up to Charisma Step + Leadership rank other units in this fashion per round, until the Leader has a 2 or less init count.

For example: the Nethermancer has a high Cha Step (but no Leadership skill), so he has 2 units: 1 of skeletons with swords (size 3), and one of 2 acolytes with crossbows. He rolls an awesome 10 for initiative, and the skeletons have init 4, the acolytes init 3. He could choose to start spellcasting on count 10, but instead he sacrifices 4 points of initiative to command the Units to move forward, with skeletons screening the archers. If no-one else interrupts, the skeleton's move happen on init count 8, then the archer's on count 6. The spellcaster can act on count 6, using his standard action to roll Threadweaving to power up a spell, now a bit safer from 'gank the mage' bull-rushers. If no-one else goes, the skeletons attack on 4, then the archers on 3.

Units can attack up to 3 targets with one attack roll if they have enough Size (compare attack roll to each target's defense). Other Units are considered a single target, and you can attack them if one or more of your Unit's members are in range to do so. If your Unit can attack the target(s) with more than one individual per target, the Attack and Damage rolls gain the following bonuses:

• for 2 attackers per target, +2 attack/damage;
• for 3 attackers per target, +4 attack/damage;
• for 4+ attackers per target, apply the +4 bonus, then apply the "Harried" penalty for having 4 attackers on you (-2 to all tests, -2 to Physical and Mystic Defense), or the Overwhelmed penalty (an additional -1 to tests/defense for each attacker over 4).

There's some other stuff, how to track damage vs Units (very different from individuals & units and swarms take double damage from Area attacks the encompass them), how to calculate Bloodied and Broken ratings (replacing Unconsciousness/Death), and what to do instead of tracking Wounds like individuals do (any roll over the Wound Threshold can cause 1d6 bonus dice per success of bonus damage, and if any of these dice explode it indicates a unit member was just "Dropped" - KO'd or Killed if that d6 explodes again by rolling another 6).

Maybe a could of other rules. But that's the foundation. I've ran the Moathouse from T1-4 Hommlet with this mass-combat ruleset, and the Bandits vs the PC + some of Burne's Badger's as henchmen went really really well. Units and swarms are little blobs of individuals to be war-gamed around, the PC Adepts remained the focus of fights, and it saved me SO MANY DICE ROLLS. There's an old thread on it somewhere around here.

Once I've got it smooth, I want to use this system to set the scale (both mechanically and in fiction) for a new version of Airship/Naval combat for Earthdawn.

Quote from: thedungeondelver;821269There's this game from Guidon called "Chainmail" that has a fantasy supplement but I'm not sure if it's got legs...

hehe [snicker]

Quote from: thedungeondelver;821269There's this game from Guidon called "Chainmail" that has a fantasy supplement but I'm not sure if it's got legs...

I doubt it will catch on...fantasy is just a fad.

Avalon Hill had a war game called "Freedom in the Galaxy" which is what you would get if you made a Star Wars ripoff RPG then boiled away the RPG elements. Essentially named hero characters run around a map of stars and planets attempting to recruit a rebel army to fight against an evil empire. Shouldn't be too hard to add the RPG part back into the game.

I always thought the board game Titan would make an interesting RPG world. A lone hero moves around a world attempting to recruit various beasts to rule with. As fame increases larger monsters are willing to join up. That would be a different spin on a fantasy campaign. Instead of killing every beast the PCs meet they attempt to recruit them for a larger goal.

Then, of course, you could run a military RPG for social stuff and when a large battle happens switch to board game mode. "Dawn Patrol" for a WWI pilot campaign, "Submarine" for a sub or destroyer based WWII campaign, "Circus Maximus" for a Roman chariot race, etc.

Speaking of boardgames thatwould make interesting RPGs