Guys, there really are some people out there who believe that Traveller (for example) should actually be a game about lost love and betrayal. That's the issue. That's where the terms appeared.

Abyssal Maw, you know what the best critique of another position is? Not parasitical nagging but building something new.

Quote from: Pierce InverarityAbyssal Maw, you know what the best critique of another position is? Not parasitical nagging but building something new.

I guess. Now I'm wondering what the other 39 campaign themes are.

Hey man, I think it's great if they think Traveller is about lost love, or fig newtons, or the bear from the Snuggle commercial and they are having fun...

I think D&D is about rainbows, the color pink, snow-covered mountain tops, and Iuz...

I think Gurps is about Ned's Declassified School Survival Guide and Harley-Davidsons...

I think DitV is about Mormon dogs roaming an Italian vinyard to protect it from the ravagaes of the evil Catholic bunny rabbits...

Okay, Calithena still hasn't materialized, so I'm going to do like everyone else and give my definition, which is pretty close to what Skyrock writes above, minus paragraph 2.

Why I define things this way is purely because I think it's a useful and interesting distinction, not because I'm working off a divinely-inspired dictionary with definitive definitions of certain English terms. I'm not even trying to demonstrate historical or traditional meanings. If you like you can just call them "A" games and not worry about what "A" stands for.

What makes an RPG an "adventure game" is the fact that it offers, and to an extent focuses on, the opportunity to engage with a fictional world along the following "ladder":

Discovery: Aha, a thing!

Interaction: If I do this to that thing, what happens?

Manipulation: By doing this, I can make the thing do that.

Mastery: If I want to do that, I can use this thing thus.

It isn't necessary to travel all the way along the ladder all the time; however, it's important to observe a continuity among the steps. What is also important is that the "thing" being engaged through the DIMM ladder is a fictional entity, not a real-world entity (the "GM"). Whether or not this is "really" an engagement with the fiction, or a matter of perception, is somewhat of a side issue. To illustrate in what I hope is a clear example:

Manipulation in an Adventure Game: by making a commotion at the top of the hill, I can distract the Fire Lizard so my comrades can trigger the trap.

Manipulation in a non-Adventure Game: by thinking of a showy/cool action that impresses the other players, I can get them to give me Plot Tokens that I can cash in to guarantee certain things happen the way I want. Or, by observing the GM's past use of timing, and watching the clock, I can figure out whether my assault on the villain's hideout is going to succeed or not.

For me, the exact details of the fiction--the type of conflicts--is less important than the approach to manipulating and mastering the fiction. Thus a council debating the fate of the Thirteen Fiefdoms, or a "tactical soap opera" can also be adventure games...as long as the manipulation or struggle for mastery is runs through the fiction instead of happening purely at the player level.

Two points I'd like to add at this time:

1) I realize that a game can partake of both A and non-A qualities...the classic instance being when hero points and such are used. However the simple fact that a game has mechanics, which aren't "real" in the game world, isn't important. As long as the mechanics are understood be primarily representational, as opposed to abstract, the "internal engagement" is preserved.

2) There's some confusion over the idea that a "game" can be both A and not-A. My answer: I'm not talking about the physical object or the arrangement of words on the page, but the way the game is played. Just as you can have a "competitive game of Chess" one day and a "friendly game of Chess" the next, without implying that "the game of Chess" is either competitive or friendly, there's no need to confuse "D&D" with "a game of D&D".

Quote from: James J SkachHey man, I think it's great if they think Traveller is about lost love, or fig newtons, or the bear from the Snuggle commercial and they are having fun...

I think D&D is about rainbows, the color pink, snow-covered mountain tops, and Iuz...

I think Gurps is about Ned's Declassified School Survival Guide and Harley-Davidsons...

I think DitV is about Mormon dogs roaming an Italian vinyard to protect it from the ravagaes of the evil Catholic bunny rabbits...

Those are all concrete concepts, though.

Anyhow, I respect the right of individuals to decide that sort of thing for for themselves or their own groups, but what we're dealing with are guys that want to decide for everyone else what the "theme" of a given game is, based upon their expertise at having mastered the GNS theory or something.

In any case, the girl who plays Moze in Ned's Declassified? Thats totally my girlfriend.

I totally want to play a Ned's Declassified RPG now...

What if I said D&D is about the btrayal of the human spirit and the loss of innocence - would that have your slip in knots?

Quote from: James J SkachI totally want to play a Ned's Declassified RPG now...

What if I said D&D is about the btrayal of the human spirit and the loss of innocence - would that have your slip in knots?

Well, no, but I would expect you then to suddenly tear off a latex mask to reveal you are actually Ben Lehman or something.




Jennifer "Moze" Mosely Fan Club President

If we ever meet (I might make it to GenCon after all!) I'll make sure to prove to you I'm not...

I don't care if Ben L. thinks that was D&D is for - as long as he doesn't tell me it's not, then, for killing things and taking stuff, or political intrigue, or one of a million other ways people probably use it...

and vice versa...of course..

To be totally fair:

Ben's probably the most decent guy out there about D&D. I just think he gets it wrong when he's trying to describe how it works on an objective level. Or when he says things like "D&D is supposed to be more like Battlestations" (which is an expandable boardgame type game with some minimal roleplaying elements).

Not to say Battlestations isn't cool either. Last year, it was one of only two games that I thought were cool enough to considered picking up. I settled on Faery's Tale because Battlestations' maps looked a bit flimsy and were (honestly) a bit on the expensive side.

Battlestations looks very cool. Also, if that's his take, then I think Ben Lehman should hook up with Settembrini.

Quote from: SosthenesYou're not Mormon, right?

No - but my Aunt, Uncle and all my cousins ARE.
 If I told them about that game they'd probably say "What the ______!!""
 Well they wouldn't say that last word - because I don't believe I've ever heard them use a cuss or swearword.

Now if we cross TWO Film projects that Bill Paxton has been  in ...say BIG LOVE and ALIENS. You got polygamist father/husband who is also fighting acid-spewing aliens - now THAT would be a mormon adventure!!


- Ed C.

Quote from: KoltarNow if we cross TWO Film projects that Bill Paxton has been  in ...say BIG LOVE and ALIENS. You got polygamist father/husband who is also fighting acid-spewing aliens - now THAT would be a mormon adventure!!

I'd go for Chtulhu. A different kind of Elder Evil...

Klingon Mormons assault the Masonic Lounge FTW!