Quote from: David RExactly.

But I would argue against the categorization of games rules termed as "Adventure"...Sett knows this very well.

Regards,
David R

Oh no.  I'm not arguing one way or the other on that front.  Thats' for a different time and place (and done here already, IIRC).

I'm just sayin'...

Now Sky seems to be saying that this is because Sett's term is the basis of that issue - which is proabaly correct.  But I've never really heard any other explanations that use "Adventure Game" as a way to describe a specific sessions or group of seesions - whereas that's the onle way I've ever head "Dungeon Crawl" used...as in "We just got through this endless dungeon crawl last week, so lets do some resting up before we head out on this next adventure to seek out the Holy Man of Montasur in Florrinford to get his help in defeating the evil Robber Baron's plot!"

Quote from: James J SkachBut I've never really heard any other explanations that use "Adventure Game" as a way to describe a specific sessions or group of seesions

Well, I _did_ hear something similar at German LARPs, where some weekends result in lots of aristocratic snobs talking, eating, drinking and posing around. This has resulted in the counter-movement of people calling their old-fashioned hack-fests "adventure cons" (as in convention -- I'd like to see an adventure con artist, though).

Never heard it (or the German version) used for tabletop games, either. I don't hang around with effete theorists, though

Quote from: James J SkachNow Sky seems to be saying that this is because Sett's term is the basis of that issue - which is proabaly correct.  But I've never really heard any other explanations that use "Adventure Game" as a way to describe a specific sessions or group of seesions

I've done so, but only in German yet: ARS manifesto. It would be difficult to translate it unambiguous and exactly - hell, even the German version is confusing and arouses a hell lot of misunderstandings Also, there're interior discussions among German adventure gamers about it - ask Sett about the role of the adventure-gaming GM[1] and plausibility consideration as viable resolution mechanic in adventure games, for instance, or ask a friend of me (who isn't participating in English forums) about the role of player-player competition in a typical adventure game.

I don't even know if a translated version would be useful. It's especially focussed on the issues of the German RPG scene in its demarcations (TDE arouses a quite different kind of Swinedom than your American WW stuff, and brings different assumptions into other kinds of gaming), and it would probably need a near total re-write to make sense to an American audience.


[1] I know, it's tautological to say "adventure-gaming game master", but "adventure game master" or "adventure GM" looked even more stupid.

I don't think most Anglophones will instantly recognize the abbreviation "TDE", Skyrock.

Anyway, all this could be completely tangential until Calithena gives us some idea what he's talking about, and whether it has any relationship to the German ARS concept.

Quote from: Elliot Wilen"TDE"

40 posts here and second time that I explain it... I guess I should add it to my sig to save me some work

TDE is the abbrevation for The Dark Eye, the most popular and influential RPG in Germany. Main difference to D&D is that it emphasizes "Storytelling" instead of adventure gaming. Additionally, it emphasizes a special kind of storytelling where atmosphere and mood stand above ev'rything (including logic, drama and player influence).
Therefore, we have lots of Germans who never participated in well-made dungeons and never experienced functional adventure gaming. A great part of my manifesto explains stuff that is self-evident to an American, but a rare insight in German gamer circles.

Quote from: David RYeah and add the Pundit to the list, if I remember correctly even he thinks this whole adventure/thematic stuff does not make much sense....at least with him, it's all about what is an rpg and what isn't...I disagree but at least he's honest about his disdain for certain games/gamers.

So Sett, I can't explore morality and character issues in D&D ? Oh wait, apparently AM doesn't think so...must have been playing D&D wrong all these years.

Regards,
David R

David, you'd probably do better at this if you weren't always making wild claims about what I think. You might even want to start paying attention to what you actually think and start talking about that.

Anyhow, I can tell that many people are concerned about this, but it's needless. "What if my favorite game isn't really (an RPG/any good/respected) according to this crazy adventure/thematic divide?"

That's not the issue. That's never been the issue.

To understand this better you'll have to look at the history of the argument. I can summarize this:

1) The forgies wanted to say that all gaming was either gamism, simulationism, or narrativism.

2) These roughly translated into "primitive", "incorrect", and "story"

3) The forgies then redefined story to mean "with a moral teaching or political issue attached".

4) They carefully worded their theories so that the sole occupiers of the "story" category were only them, and nearly everything else fit into the "sim" category.

5) Eventually they came to realize that since everyone was in the "sim"  category, they themselves had become less significant. So they attempted to address this in various ways, including denigrating it as a whole, by labelling adventuring as "drowning and falling" gaming. (Drowning and falling being some of the things that you might have to deal with if you were off adventuring instead of talking about betrayal or lost love or global warming or whatever.) I remember watching some guys just openly snark about how superior they were because the foolish "sim" gamers had a random encounter happen in their game. This should have been a clue that these were two different hobbies altogether at that point.

6) Eventually they settled on the realization that what they were doing was entirely different from all roleplaying games out there. Settembrini has not yet entered the picture. They decided that what they were doing was called "Story-Games".

7) Ok, here's where we begin. With the realization that "story-games" are neither definitively stories, nor games, and certainly all roleplaying games (even the ones we don't like) create stories and are (usually) better games than anything those guys could ever come up with.. Settembrini makes the distinction about the mode of roleplay. It is not derogatory in any way, but it always seems to offend David R for some reason.

Here is the distinction:

There are thematic games. This is about roleplaying in which the characters primarily involve themselves with exploring themes and morals. This is usually done in a focused way.

There are adventure games in which the characters go places and do things. It's a lot less focused, and it includes just about every game from Amber to Tunnels and Trolls.

Quote from: Abyssal MawDavid, you'd probably do better at this if you weren't always making wild claims about what I think.

Better at what - obscurantism ? And care to point out my wild claims.

QuoteYou might even want to start paying attention to what you actually think and start talking about that.

Now this is grade A Swinethink right here.

QuoteAnyhow, I can tell that many people are concerned about this, but it's needless. "What if my favorite game isn't really (an RPG/any good/respected) according to this crazy adventure/thematic divide?"

They are concerned because the thinking/jargon is flawed and does not accurately reflect...reality?

QuoteThat's not the issue. That's never been the issue.

Really because it sure seems that way...not that anyone really cares, but "your games is adventure" or "your game is thematic" really is not how any "normal" gamer views rpgs

QuoteBORING HISTORY LESSON

Quote7) Ok, here's where we begin. With the realization that "story-games" are neither definitively stories, nor games, and certainly all roleplaying games (even the ones we don't like) create stories and are (usually) better games than anything those guys could ever come up with.. Settembrini makes the distinction about the mode of roleplay.

(Bolding mine)You gotta be kidding me. Now it's mode of roleplaying?

QuoteIt is not derogatory in any way, but it always seems to offend David R for some reason.

I said it was innacurate even if it now seems about mode of roleplaying. Why the fuck should it offend me? Oh right, maybe because Sett and you have a history of dissing playstyles that you don't like.

QuoteHere is the distinction:

There are thematic games. This is about roleplaying in which the characters primarily involve themselves with exploring themes and morals. This is usually done in a focused way.

This is funny, so D&D can be a thematic game ?

QuoteThere are adventure games in which the characters go places and do things. It's a lot less focused, and it includes just about every game from Amber to Tunnels and Trolls.

And Dogs in The Vineyard, right ?

Regards,
David R

I don't know what goes on in Germany, but I don't know that that needs to be the focus of this thread, either. Settembrini is not Kevin(c) Siembieda(R), and "adventure" is not his TM.

That said, "adventure" is not the opposite, either, or needn't be. It's neither one guy's private term nor so broad as to be unusable.

I have zero time for this, but for an alternative take on "adventure" I'd look at the Picaresque novel--where a hero is roaming a whole world. That gets us away from sector dukes in the FFW and back to Conan in the Wilderlands.

PS: Nor does this thread have to be about the fucking Forge, by the way.

Just a suggestion.

Quote from: David R...some stuff

Sometimes I think you just want to be offended and you really aren't sure how to get there. I'm not sure why you feel threatened by me.

Anyhow, don't take my word for it.

Take theirs.

Quote from: Abyssal MawSometimes I think you just want to be offended and you really aren't sure how to get there.

The way ain't hard to find :

http://www.therpgsite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6378

QuoteI'm not sure why you feel threatened by me.

Threatened by you? Jeez AM, you're the guy who seems threatened by a small group of gamers ...see below

QuoteTake theirs.

But I don't blame you, you were drafted after all...imagine your surprise when you discover that this war is make believe....

Oh, hi fellows over at storygames, how you guys doing?

Regards,
David R

See, your'e all angry and snarky and stuff and I bet you aren't even sure why!

Again, I'm hoping you re-read all of the posts here, and maybe go back and look at how these terms came about. You would at least understand my position better.

I'm not expecting you to change or to suddenly take my side, but I do worry that you just aren't understanding me.

Snark ? Hell I thought your "want to get offended but don't know the way" was way better than my lame link.

*shrug* I know where you're coming from AM, I just think that Sett's jargon and your defense of it is wrong.

Regards,
David R

Maybe it's heresy, but I agree with David in the sense that I've never enjoyed Sett's categorization.  You certainly can't think of individual games that way, or you run up against people usgin D&D to support thematic play, or even shifting between "Thematic" and "Adventure" play on a regular, sometimes frequent, basis.

Or, to be fair to the forgeries, playing DitV precisely because it seems to mix "Adventure" and "Thematic" gaming in the proportions they like.

Just to be clear, there's something different going on in RPG's, but I don't think it helps to think of games, only in peoples' motivations/goals/methods. Even if successful doing so, you can't pidgoen-hole people too strongly.

So an Adventure Game is one or more sessions using an RPG rule-set to participation in hazardous or exciting experiences. A Dungeon Crawl is a subset of Adventure Games wherein the hazardous or exciting experience takes place in a dungeon.

As has been said upthread, I believe.

To excessively muddy the waters, Green Ronin's Advanced Game Master's Guide lists "Adventure" among its 40 "campaign themes". To whit,

Quote from: Green Ronin's Advanced Game Master's GuideAdventure themes focus on doing noteworthy, difficult, and exciting deeds. Elements include fights, exotic locales, heroic figures, death-defying stunts, and driven foes.

Stick that in your pipe and smoke it. Or not. I simplify right down to "What I'm doing is fun. What you're doing doesn't look like any fun. So me over hyere, you be over thyere, screw you guys, I'm gonna fireball some orcs from my flying carpet.", so maybe I'm not worth listening to about this.