Quote from: Chris24601 on September 19, 2021, 02:27:33 PM
As one person put it, I'm one of the only people he knows who can play a paladin unironically.

The thing I've noticed over the years is that a Paladin mindset crosses genres very easily; working as easily in the modern day and far future, and even to an extent in criminal focused games (the honorable thief who doesn't like guns and only steals from the corrupt and other criminals) as it does in Fantasy.

My biggest issue presently is that most of the other people I am currently playing with tend to lean more Punisher and Deadpool in their view of "heroics."

I think that's because many people think of Paladins as simply "Dudley Do-Rights" rather than looking at the complexity of character it takes to be "Good" in an often more complex and morally fubarred world. It doesn't help that players avoid Paladins and "Lawful Good" alignment like the plague because of the misconception of how these things can be expressed at the table.

They tend to go hyperbolic Inquisition-mode or passively deciding the easiest way to do "good" as it presents itself without risk. It's a shame people tend to look at Paladins like this. Players that can do it well and be nuanced without sacrificing their principles in play, are a rare breed or player.

Quote from: TheShadowSpawn on September 19, 2021, 12:44:28 AM

Quote from: HappyDaze on September 19, 2021, 12:41:27 AM

Quote from: TheShadowSpawn on September 19, 2021, 12:17:56 AM

Quote from: HappyDaze on September 18, 2021, 11:46:36 PM
The comic book superheroes genre could probably work, again based on non-gaming sources (e.g., MCU). I think that my group just isn't into gaming worlds/settings that don't stem from non-gaming sources. For them, a sci-fi setting would probably have to be described in how it compares to Star Wars, Star Trek, Firefly, and (for some of them) the Expanse of else they won't look any further (the Modiphius Infinity game just drew blank stares and Coriolis was essentially "like Middle East replacing Old West in Firefly" in one player's words). The relative lack of material makes non-zombie post-apocalyptic settings hard to sell (except Fallout), and all fantasy tends to get looped into LotS and D&D. This seems especially problematic when I try to run a setting with a generic system.

Have you looked at Shadow of the Demon Lord? Its fairly removed from standard D&D roleplaying games, but is also very fantasy in nature. Its dark, gritty, has a great game system. Its basically D&D meets WFRP, with the best parts of both.

The best part is that the game is expect to be about 10 full sessions, spanning 0-10th level play. I've run several campaigns for veteran D&D players that loved it.

Funny you should mention SotDL. I was discussing it with them tonight after the Soulbound game ended in a TPK.

TPK.. rough. SotDL can be deadly, buts its the most mathematically balanced game I've ever played. The standard setting really is decent, and the book has great ways to choose various ways to play out the "end of the world" scenario.

It was session 3 and I was running the free introductory adventure,  Crash & Burn. The final encounter had a rather powerful grot spellcaster riding upon the shoulders of a dankhold troggoth. The two had several abilities that synergized to make them very bad news together, and they bulldozed the PCs. TBH, I'm not sure if I'm going to stick with Soulbound at this point.

Does that game use the same system as WFRP ? Or is it a totally different type of game?

Quote from: TheShadowSpawn on September 20, 2021, 07:59:07 PM
Does that game use the same system as WFRP ? Or is it a totally different type of game?

Totally different. It's a D6 dice pool system with zones instead of ranges and both Toughness (like Palladium SDC) and Wounds (like Palladium Hit Points). Damage is based on weapon (0-3) plus successes and reduced by armor (er, armour).

Quote from: HappyDaze on September 18, 2021, 02:44:15 PM
Has anyone else found that some players have a hard time adjusting their expectations for (primarily fantasy) non-D&D settings? Regardless of the specifics of the game world, they approach it like D&D adventurers.

This has happened with several of my players in two different groups. I'm games ranging from Exalted (1e) through WFRP (2e) and on to Modiphius 2d20 Conan and most recently with Soulbound. In every case, they didn't seem to care much for the nuances of the settings and just made characters like they were playing D&D. Of course, when we discussed it, they didn't want to play D&D, so... 

I find it particularly noteworthy that this seems to happen more with settings that have a lot of details that the players don't want to be bothered to learn. Most of them will learn the rules enough to get by, but with settings, they seem unwilling to bite into ...

Anyone else having similar issues? Any suggestions on how to get them to buy into non-D&D "Adventurer" fantasy?

Most players don't care too much about setting differences unless they can affect them during play.

In my experience combat is usually the one thing that will snap them out of "D&D mode".

It is a matter of consequences. How are the consequences different for the PC as opposed to what would happen to them in a game of D&D?

If there is no significant differences in consequences in combat or more social role play, then they will continue to act like D&D PCs no matter what else is thrown there way.

Why should they change their behavior playing in a different setting when the consequences are no different?

Quote from: S'mon on September 19, 2021, 08:55:48 AM
I have the opposite problem with non-D&D genres. I get genre paralysis and think "But... what do the PCs actually do?!"

Until I realise I can just run it like D&D. 

In truth all RPGs are wargame derivatives. And the PC groups are just spec-ops teams that band together to accomplish goal x...

Quote from: HappyDaze on September 20, 2021, 08:04:16 PM

Quote from: TheShadowSpawn on September 20, 2021, 07:59:07 PM
Does that game use the same system as WFRP ? Or is it a totally different type of game?

Totally different. It's a D6 dice pool system with zones instead of ranges and both Toughness (like Palladium SDC) and Wounds (like Palladium Hit Points). Damage is based on weapon (0-3) plus successes and reduced by armor (er, armour).

  Is it like the Wrath and Glory game for WH40k?

I agree with previous posters to a degree. Rather than changing the goal, change the method:

Run Call of Cthulhu. It's investigative so the PCs can't just kill or intimidate every NPC. They need information from the NPCs so they have to play nice somewhat.

As the ref, you have to present them with situations that they can't Murderhobo™. When they realize they can't use combat for everything, they'll grow as players and you as GM can run adventures of different colors.

Quote from: Theory of Games on September 21, 2021, 10:33:47 AM
Run Call of Cthulhu. It's investigative so the PCs can't just kill or intimidate every NPC. They need information from the NPCs so they have to play nice somewhat.

As the ref, you have to present them with situations that they can't Murderhobo™. When they realize they can't use combat for everything, they'll grow as players and you as GM can run adventures of different colors.

I enjoy Call of Cthulhu and have played a lot, but the same is possible in lots of other systems. I would say the most important thing is to make being non-adventurer-ish fun. When the PCs have social connections and interactions, make sure that they're both entertaining and useful. If the PCs have a choice to handle a situation by social interaction or by combat, they should get that social interaction works better tactically.

Even in Call of Cthulhu, I've played in games that had a lot of murderhobo behavior of breaking into places with flashlights and shotguns. That's mostly because social interactions in those games didn't get us anything other than cold shoulders and vague hints, while breaking into places got us documents and artifacts as well as murdered cultists and monsters.

I think sometimes GMs have a bias that social interaction is "free" - and giving away useful stuff without a fight is being a softie. If the players just walk in and get a bunch of useful stuff simply by talking to people, then the adventure is a cakewalk and not challenging. That obviously leads to more violent behavior. I think there are ways to make sure the adventure is both challenging and social. One part is having social consequences, but a big part is social rewards. There needs to be a carrot as well as a stick, I'd say.

Quote from: oggsmash on September 21, 2021, 08:52:19 AM

Quote from: HappyDaze on September 20, 2021, 08:04:16 PM

Quote from: TheShadowSpawn on September 20, 2021, 07:59:07 PM
Does that game use the same system as WFRP ? Or is it a totally different type of game?

Totally different. It's a D6 dice pool system with zones instead of ranges and both Toughness (like Palladium SDC) and Wounds (like Palladium Hit Points). Damage is based on weapon (0-3) plus successes and reduced by armor (er, armour).

  Is it like the Wrath and Glory game for WH40k?

Similar in that both use D6s, but very different in how it's all out together. I'm not really up for laying out the entire system or setting, but i m sure there are reviews online to answer those questions.

Quote from: HappyDaze on September 21, 2021, 12:42:26 PM

Quote from: oggsmash on September 21, 2021, 08:52:19 AM

Quote from: HappyDaze on September 20, 2021, 08:04:16 PM

Quote from: TheShadowSpawn on September 20, 2021, 07:59:07 PM
Does that game use the same system as WFRP ? Or is it a totally different type of game?

Totally different. It's a D6 dice pool system with zones instead of ranges and both Toughness (like Palladium SDC) and Wounds (like Palladium Hit Points). Damage is based on weapon (0-3) plus successes and reduced by armor (er, armour).

  Is it like the Wrath and Glory game for WH40k?

Similar in that both use D6s, but very different in how it's all out together. I'm not really up for laying out the entire system or setting, but i m sure there are reviews online to answer those questions.

  I wouldnt expect you to, but I would ask for a judgement, better in play or worse than W&G?

Quote from: oggsmash on September 21, 2021, 02:05:33 PM

Quote from: HappyDaze on September 21, 2021, 12:42:26 PM

Quote from: oggsmash on September 21, 2021, 08:52:19 AM

Quote from: HappyDaze on September 20, 2021, 08:04:16 PM

Quote from: TheShadowSpawn on September 20, 2021, 07:59:07 PM
Does that game use the same system as WFRP ? Or is it a totally different type of game?

Totally different. It's a D6 dice pool system with zones instead of ranges and both Toughness (like Palladium SDC) and Wounds (like Palladium Hit Points). Damage is based on weapon (0-3) plus successes and reduced by armor (er, armour).

  Is it like the Wrath and Glory game for WH40k?

Similar in that both use D6s, but very different in how it's all out together. I'm not really up for laying out the entire system or setting, but i m sure there are reviews online to answer those questions.

  I wouldnt expect you to, but I would ask for a judgement, better in play or worse than W&G?

I like a lot of the Soulbound system, but there are some spots that don't appeal to me (having a full tank of Mettle seems too powerful on turn 1 and minion swarms are the poster glass cannon). OTOH, Wrath & Glory didn't appeal to me at all on a read through (and I never played or ran it).

Quote from: HappyDaze on September 21, 2021, 02:31:30 PM

Quote from: oggsmash on September 21, 2021, 02:05:33 PM

Quote from: HappyDaze on September 21, 2021, 12:42:26 PM

Quote from: oggsmash on September 21, 2021, 08:52:19 AM

Quote from: HappyDaze on September 20, 2021, 08:04:16 PM

Quote from: TheShadowSpawn on September 20, 2021, 07:59:07 PM
Does that game use the same system as WFRP ? Or is it a totally different type of game?

Totally different. It's a D6 dice pool system with zones instead of ranges and both Toughness (like Palladium SDC) and Wounds (like Palladium Hit Points). Damage is based on weapon (0-3) plus successes and reduced by armor (er, armour).

  Is it like the Wrath and Glory game for WH40k?

Similar in that both use D6s, but very different in how it's all out together. I'm not really up for laying out the entire system or setting, but i m sure there are reviews online to answer those questions.

  I wouldnt expect you to, but I would ask for a judgement, better in play or worse than W&G?

I like a lot of the Soulbound system, but there are some spots that don't appeal to me (having a full tank of Mettle seems too powerful on turn 1 and minion swarms are the poster glass cannon). OTOH, Wrath & Glory didn't appeal to me at all on a read through (and I never played or ran it).

  Fair assessment on the read through IMO, A games rules have to look pretty bad for me to not even be willing to give them a try, and that was what I got from the page with W&G.  If you were at least willing to give Soulbound a shot, that means it must be considerably better in your eyes, and I have a feeling I am likely to agree with that assessment as well.  I will go ahead and pull the trigger on a copy and see if it is for me.

How much of this comes as an emergent quality of class-based gaming?

Quote from: tenbones on September 21, 2021, 03:23:59 PM
How much of this comes as an emergent quality of class-based gaming?

Eh, I wouldn't say much. People like archetypes and roleplaying an archetype is fun and easy.

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on September 21, 2021, 03:41:52 PM

Quote from: tenbones on September 21, 2021, 03:23:59 PM
How much of this comes as an emergent quality of class-based gaming?

Eh, I wouldn't say much. People like archetypes and roleplaying an archetype is fun and easy.

Yes, classes/archetypes are not the issue.

IMHO, it has mainly to do with these:

1: D&Ds combat norm of 'balanced encounters' + HP bloat = Combat is fun, not dangerous. Risk of death is actually rather minimal after a few levels. And as PCs only get 'level appropriate' enemies, it cultivates a sense of 'we can kill anything' amongst long time players. Yes there can be consequences for combat but death is usually not one of them. And once the PCs get to higher levels the magic users have an app for that as well.

2: The RenFaire / Wild West social assumptions of many D&D settings. Social class is basically not a thing in D&D. In fairness it has kind of been that way since the beginning of the game. But along with the way combat typically plays out, it does seem foster among some players a bit of a: "Just try me bitch. I dare you!" attitude whether they are talking to a back alley assassin, or a King...