New here. Hi.
I was wondering if there were some existing threads regarding new abilities for fighters and martial classes generally?
I've been making my own homebrew for some time and one of the things I've found that makes fighters less fun to play is that they have fewer options in combat.
I've been revamping the martial style classes to include things like...
Crowd control - Using grapple to move or pin creatures
Defensive positioning - Being next to a fighter gives you a bonus to AC, fighters can be used as cover
Specialized "combat maneuvers" - disarm, sunder armor, things like that.
Anyhow, I'd appreciate any ideas or links to threads on the topic.
Thanks!
You want to think about weapons and special use case of said weapons as the fighters powers. Put a limit on how often they can use such said power attacks. Maybe group them by families for some basic specials and then give each unique weapon its own special power.
Say something like a Warpick devastating strike only usable on med/heavy armored combatants
-Increase crit chance from 20 to 15-20 on a roll (so 1 in 4 chance of it working, on a high armored foe this could really help)
-If crit hits, Penetrate armor lowering armor by 1 and causing a bleed of 1d12 a turn till staunched.
-If no crit hit, no crit or miss, the creature takes normal damage plus an extra D4 damage.
Depending on the system, that could be good. No guarantee of the attack going through, if it does the attacker is easier to attack now, is bleeding, if fail they still get an increase of damage but the pick didn't penetrate the armor. I would limit the amount of times used, they should not replace spell casters but should be something dealing with melee attackers from damage, stuns, reducing armor, inducing bleeds, concussions, blinding, crits, knockdowns, ae attacks etc
You could look up 3.5E, PF, PF2 or BG3 for inspiration on weapon damage abilities.
I am working on an OSE variant campaign. After dividing classes into martial, semi-martial, and non-martial categories I created class based damage tables by broad weapon size/type and level range. So the martial classes get the best damage for weapon classes and the best improvement. One advantage of this that drove me to do it in the first place is that damage is based on training and not the particular weapon, so there are no winner and loser weapons. No one wants to use a spear at d6 when they could use a sword for d8.
I am currently working on fighting styles that use various weapons that can be chosen which give bonuses to those trained in them when performing certain maneuvers. Fighting classes will have the opportunity to learn multiple styles. Still a work in progress.
I do a thing where each weapon has it's own special thing it can do based loosely on what I know about them in RL context. An example is the spear; a spear has reach but it also can keep an enemy from getting in range by forcing them to do a check to close with you or someone standing adjacent to you.
I've done something very similar for the very-non-D&D game I'm writing right now. (Almost done, yay!) One of the key design features is a depletable "fatigue" resource. Normal attacks cost no fatigue but any of the 30 or so melee maneuvers (power attack, furious defense, etc) cost a certain amount. The point is to offer fighters interesting, powerful options, like casters, but limit how often it can be done, also like casters. The other options is 4E's x/day mechanic, which I hate with a passion because it has no reasonable in-game explanation.
Quote from: Mishihari on December 19, 2023, 04:26:46 PM
I've done something very similar for the very-non-D&D game I'm writing right now. (Almost done, yay!) One of the key design features is a depletable "fatigue" resource. Normal attacks cost no fatigue but any of the 30 or so melee maneuvers (power attack, furious defense, etc) cost a certain amount. The point is to offer fighters interesting, powerful options, like casters, but limit how often it can be done, also like casters. The other options is 4E's x/day mechanic, which I hate with a passion because it has no reasonable in-game explanation.
Fatigue sounds interesting. So it represents a pool of resources to use on abilities? I like it! WOuld the abilities be known from the beginning or added by feats/leveling? By class? Or have you thought of that yet?
Right now I'm working on options for fighters that don't default to some variation of "I hit it with my axe!" My goal is to create scenarios where there is a meaningful choice for martial players where they can decide... do I attack or do I do this other thing.
Whatever that may be...
Quote from: honeydipperdavid on December 19, 2023, 03:23:27 PM
You want to think about weapons and special use case of said weapons as the fighters powers. Put a limit on how often they can use such said power attacks. Maybe group them by families for some basic specials and then give each unique weapon its own special power.
Say something like a Warpick devastating strike only usable on med/heavy armored combatants
-Increase crit chance from 20 to 15-20 on a roll (so 1 in 4 chance of it working, on a high armored foe this could really help)
-If crit hits, Penetrate armor lowering armor by 1 and causing a bleed of 1d12 a turn till staunched.
-If no crit hit, no crit or miss, the creature takes normal damage plus an extra D4 damage.
Depending on the system, that could be good. No guarantee of the attack going through, if it does the attacker is easier to attack now, is bleeding, if fail they still get an increase of damage but the pick didn't penetrate the armor. I would limit the amount of times used, they should not replace spell casters but should be something dealing with melee attackers from damage, stuns, reducing armor, inducing bleeds, concussions, blinding, crits, knockdowns, ae attacks etc
You could look up 3.5E, PF, PF2 or BG3 for inspiration on weapon damage abilities.
I have been looking at the BECMI Master's book for weapon specialization rules. Cool stuff in that book along this theme.
Quote from: Captain_Pazuzu on December 19, 2023, 04:46:37 PM
Quote from: Mishihari on December 19, 2023, 04:26:46 PM
I've done something very similar for the very-non-D&D game I'm writing right now. (Almost done, yay!) One of the key design features is a depletable "fatigue" resource. Normal attacks cost no fatigue but any of the 30 or so melee maneuvers (power attack, furious defense, etc) cost a certain amount. The point is to offer fighters interesting, powerful options, like casters, but limit how often it can be done, also like casters. The other options is 4E's x/day mechanic, which I hate with a passion because it has no reasonable in-game explanation.
Fatigue sounds interesting. So it represents a pool of resources to use on abilities? I like it! WOuld the abilities be known from the beginning or added by feats/leveling? By class? Or have you thought of that yet?
Right now I'm working on options for fighters that don't default to some variation of "I hit it with my axe!" My goal is to create scenarios where there is a meaningful choice for martial players where they can decide... do I attack or do I do this other thing.
Whatever that may be...
If I was going to do it by in D&D, I'd give some for CON, and some for each level up, with the level up amount varying by class. That way each class can do some things, but the fighters are the best at it because they get by far the most fatigue allowance. I don't see a problem with limiting it to just fighters though if that's what you're looking for - it's just my game is skill not class based so there would be no way for me to do that even if I wanted to.
Not a fighter specific thing, but I use a supplement for Basic Fantasy that adds called shots, they simply declare what they are going to do and make an attack roll at -4, sometimes the creature gets a saving throw as well.
At my table our fighter has used this to great effect.
Likewise I use another concept called weapon specialization, at certain levels they get attack/damage bonuses to a weapon of their choice, which can grant extra attacks for that weapon.
Don't make maneuvers costly to acquire, or so difficult to use in combat that there's no point trying them over normal attacks.
Do martial classes get cleaves - as in bonus attacks when they drop weaker opponents?
Quote from: Socratic-DM on December 19, 2023, 06:30:19 PM
Not a fighter specific thing, but I use a supplement for Basic Fantasy that adds called shots, they simply declare what they are going to do and make an attack roll at -4, sometimes the creature gets a saving throw as well.
At my table our fighter has used this to great effect.
This is the track I use for my homebrew as well. "Options" already exist .. every "feat" is something a fighter (or anyone else) can already attempt. Just roll with a penalty to achieve any outcome other than the default "do damage" effect.
My experience with this has been similar to yours: the fighters, with their superior to-hit rolls, wind up taking great advantage of this rule in combat.
D&D 4e is hated for a number of reasons, some of them even legitimate. But it is absolutely fantastic at exactly what you're thinking about.
Quote from: migo on December 20, 2023, 04:09:37 PM
D&D 4e is hated for a number of reasons, some of them even legitimate. But it is absolutely fantastic at exactly what you're thinking about.
Matthew Collvielle is releasing 4.5Edition, where you always hit and you just change your gear to switch subclasses. It truly looks like shit.
Now he does have some ideas like as the party expends resources they do unlock some abilities and when they rest well the villain gains abilities. That is something I like. First it cuts down on the long restitis some players go for and then if you random encounter rolls suck and you go by them the party gets one hell of a bonus. It would be nice to have a system with this being known, part of the game and planned for.
Me personally when the players smurf the boss by running around and sneaking and carefully clearing everything and then taking a long rest and wait until no encounters to take away one resource, I simply up the bosses rolls, resistances and buff him accordingly. If their daily budget is 20K xp and the boss was 8K xp but they decided to treat the game like a video game, no problem players you now have a 20K xp boss enjoy the fight.
Quote from: migo on December 20, 2023, 04:09:37 PM
D&D 4e is hated for a number of reasons, some of them even legitimate. But it is absolutely fantastic at exactly what you're thinking about.
Ya know... I just looked and I happen to have the 4th edition martial power. I had totally written 4th edition off.
Thanks for the tip.
Really... anything that isn't an attack is welcome.
I'd suggest looking into some of the systems presented in the Rules Cyclopedia/BECMI version of D&D. It did something similar to what you're describing in which Fighters would unlock "Combat Options" at 9th level and beyond. This included setting lances for charges, parrying, defensive postures, and even multiple attacks. Granted you could always allow your fighting-types to unlock these abilities much earlier if you wanted to.
Another idea from BECMI is the Weapon Mastery charts. Granted they look confusing at first, but they're pretty simple once you give them a look over. The big things to take away from them are that they modify the weapon for the character in question. So, for example, a character who has Basic skill with a Sword does 1d8 damage. When they reach Skilled status, however, they do 1d12 damage, and get a +2 to their Armor Class against the first attack against them every combat round. In this case you could allow fighters to do something similar, wherein they can train with a particular weapon and increase its capabilities beyond that of other classes. So when a cleric swings a mace, it's just 1d6 damage, but a fighter with some training with the same mace might deal 2d4.
Both of these systems allowed the Fighter to keep up with the other classes as they gained new abilities and spells. Sure, the wizard can do a 4d4+4 Magic Missile, but now the fighter can do 2d8 + STR Bonus and gets defensive bonuses. It's not a 1:1 comparison, but he can keep up.
:) I come from an older and different paradigm: whatever is not forbidden is allowed. So seeking push-button options for the things you are asking for is rather odd for me, predominantly a post-WotC D&D phenomenon. Many of the ideas you are asking for have been treated in TSR D&D, but it is predominantly in Party Tactics with the assumption that if one member falls another steps up to hold the line. So isolating it into a permission system, where other classes cannot participate in being in the front risking their lives in a similar way, seems unnecessary. ;) Anyone can risk their lives at the front, especially if you are forced to in a fighting retreat!
What it seems you are asking is something where the Fighter excels compared to others. How TSR managed this was to give GEAER GEAR GEAR to fighters. Being proficient with so many weapons and then holding formations was the first idea to show Fighter excellence. Another was taking advantage of Fighter high early AC and eventual high To Hit and Multiple Attacks. So it did not become a permission to trip, disarm, wolf pack tactics, polearm 2nd row attack, tactical withdrawal, charging, mounted charge, etc. beyond being able to hand the weaponry and having a good chance to do it.
I know this may not be what you are looking for. But I feel that this pre-fabricated "exception-based"(not allowed to others) solutions have become sellable widgets that become a crutch for party coordination. The old TSR fighter was allowed by class not only all weapons and armor, magical and not, but also all protection scrolls; there's an assumed symbiotic relationship between magic-users and frontline warriors. That carries the other way, as the magic-user who stands at the frontline with a staff in a fighting withdrawal might be the only thing between getting the downed fighter to the healer in time and the party imploding.
So I am going to answer your questions assuming my paradigm, maybe you'll like it as it doesn't add much new overhead 8) :
Crowd control - Using grapple to move or pin creatures
Overbearing is for everyone. This allows sheer numbers to attempt to drag someone down.
Grapple can be complex or reduced to an AWESOME table (no really, it's amazing! Check that KO%).
Use weaponry and or coordination: Mancatchers (that's literally their purpose), Lassoes, Nets, Ropes/staffs/polearms/sticks held between two points people, gaffs/hooks/barbs entangling and forcing movement like nets, etc.
Defensive positioning - Being next to a fighter gives you a bonus to AC, fighters can be used as cover
In my day that was a frontline formations. ;) But yeah, you are looking for one that triggers without taking advantage of cover and formation... Kinda unnecessary in my view; don't need the widget to do what cooperation and working with game context can accomplish.
Specialized "combat maneuvers" - disarm, sunder armor, things like that.
A lot of these were based on taking advantage of a Fighter's higher To Hit and Multiple Attacks. It was kept available to everyone while at the same time emphasizing the Fighter's excellence by adding a penalty to its performance. Given fighters could usually hit better and try again more often, on average they outpaced others. That said it also allowed a squishy to do a hail mary combat manuever and *possibly* have it work. That swing in potential has a psychological boost to both Fighters and everyone else in a desperate situation.
If you are interested in more there's several older books that explore these ideas, like 2e Complete Handbook: Fighters. Overall you could build a combat monster with specialized widgets, but I found isolating such fun tidbits less rewarding than opening it to everyone and then have a class stand heads above the rest in doing it.
Frontline formations don't do anything. Martials have exactly zero ability to stop the monsters from targeting casters with their spell like abilities. That's also assuming front line even means anything when you can be attacked from any direction or all directions at any time.
Quote from: Domina on December 21, 2023, 11:30:23 AM
Frontline formations don't do anything. Martials have exactly zero ability to stop the monsters from targeting casters with their spell like abilities. That's also assuming front line even means anything when you can be attacked from any direction or all directions at any time.
This is coming from someone who regularly uses miniatures, but Frontline formations prevent melee enemies from running up and swatting the party's Magic User, since they can't move through an enemy's space. Usually you follow up your front line with henchmen carrying pole arms who can reach over the Frontline and poke them from safety. That's how I've always done it anyway.
Quote from: 1stLevelWizard on December 21, 2023, 12:16:26 PM
Quote from: Domina on December 21, 2023, 11:30:23 AM
Frontline formations don't do anything. Martials have exactly zero ability to stop the monsters from targeting casters with their spell like abilities. That's also assuming front line even means anything when you can be attacked from any direction or all directions at any time.
This is coming from someone who regularly uses miniatures, but Frontline formations prevent melee enemies from running up and swatting the party's Magic User, since they can't move through an enemy's space. Usually you follow up your front line with henchmen carrying pole arms who can reach over the Frontline and poke them from safety. That's how I've always done it anyway.
How nice of the DM to never use monsters with any interesting abilities, and only ever use dumb beasts and mindless undead. Wouldn't want the players to stay awake during the fight.
Quote from: Domina on December 21, 2023, 11:30:23 AM
Frontline formations don't do anything. Martials have exactly zero ability to stop the monsters from targeting casters with their spell like abilities. That's also assuming front line even means anything when you can be attacked from any direction or all directions at any time.
I mean this is a true statement in many games, but not true in some other games.
Quote from: Captain_Pazuzu on December 19, 2023, 02:45:56 PM
I was wondering if there were some existing threads regarding new abilities for fighters and martial classes generally?
Building of a OD&D foundation for my Majestic Fantasy RPG, I have gotten positive feedback for these two things.
Fighters get to add their "to-hit bonus" (the difference between hitting AC 9 at level 1 and their current level) to the initiative die. Along with their dex bonus which all characters get.
Fighters can attack a number of Hit dice/levels equal to their level with a minimum attack of 1. So a 3rd level fighter can attack three 1 HD creatures. Or a 2 HD creature and a 1 HD creature. Or attack a 1 HD creature three times.
The way this works in practice is that the player attacks a target and I let know if there is anybody else within range (depending on remaining movement and weapons used) that they can attack. Or whether they can attack the target again.
These two changes have made playing a fighter character a lot more attractive even for players who normally play 5e.
I have other alterations of the combat system but they are based on tactics and weapon types and are not specific to the fighter class.
Quote from: Domina on December 21, 2023, 11:30:23 AM
Frontline formations don't do anything. Martials have exactly zero ability to stop the monsters from targeting casters with their spell like abilities. That's also assuming front line even means anything when you can be attacked from any direction or all directions at any time.
The general rule concerning tactics is that they allow a force to concentrate its firepower at a time and place where it will be the most effective.
Fighting in a formation doesn't always mean fighting in a straight line. It means operating in concert in way that maximizes the group's firepower effectiveness.
Multiple combatants regardless of edition are by far the biggest threat because the more combatants a force has the more attack they have and the more damage they have. Fighting as formation allows the group to efficiently whittle down the number of opponents faster than if the battle was fought as a series of individual skirmishes.
Fighting as a formation also allows the group to engage and win against superior opponents particularly if the opponent is a single creature or character. Outside of some area-effect powers and abilities, even the most powerful characters/creatures have a limited number of attacks they can make in a single round compared to a group working together as a formation.
The nature of the group's formation and the specific tactics depends on the nature of their abilities and the circumstances of the encounter. If it is truly a situation where attacks can come from any direction then the group needs to fight in a formation that accounts for that. And there are several from history and fiction.
Quote from: estar on December 21, 2023, 02:30:05 PM
Quote from: Domina on December 21, 2023, 11:30:23 AM
Frontline formations don't do anything. Martials have exactly zero ability to stop the monsters from targeting casters with their spell like abilities. That's also assuming front line even means anything when you can be attacked from any direction or all directions at any time.
The general rule concerning tactics is that they allow a force to concentrate its firepower at a time and place where it will be the most effective.
Fighting in a formation doesn't always mean fighting in a straight line. It means operating in concert in way that maximizes the group's firepower effectiveness.
Multiple combatants regardless of edition are by far the biggest threat because the more combatants a force has the more attack they have and the more damage they have. Fighting as formation allows the group to efficiently whittle down the number of opponents faster than if the battle was fought as a series of individual skirmishes.
Fighting as a formation also allows the group to engage and win against superior opponents particularly if the opponent is a single creature or character. Outside of some area-effect powers and abilities, even the most powerful characters/creatures have a limited number of attacks they can make in a single round compared to a group working together as a formation.
The nature of the group's formation and the specific tactics depends on the nature of their abilities and the circumstances of the encounter. If it is truly a situation where attacks can come from any direction then the group needs to fight in a formation that accounts for that. And there are several from history and fiction.
Okay. Twenty shadows float up through the floor simultaneously and grab the ankles of every party member, forcing multiple saves against strength drain. They retreat back through the floor afterwards. Which formation helps against this?
Quote from: estar on December 21, 2023, 02:30:05 PM
Quote from: Domina on December 21, 2023, 11:30:23 AM
Frontline formations don't do anything. Martials have exactly zero ability to stop the monsters from targeting casters with their spell like abilities. That's also assuming front line even means anything when you can be attacked from any direction or all directions at any time.
The general rule concerning tactics is that they allow a force to concentrate its firepower at a time and place where it will be the most effective.
Fighting in a formation doesn't always mean fighting in a straight line. It means operating in concert in way that maximizes the group's firepower effectiveness.
Multiple combatants regardless of edition are by far the biggest threat because the more combatants a force has the more attack they have and the more damage they have. Fighting as formation allows the group to efficiently whittle down the number of opponents faster than if the battle was fought as a series of individual skirmishes.
Fighting as a formation also allows the group to engage and win against superior opponents particularly if the opponent is a single creature or character. Outside of some area-effect powers and abilities, even the most powerful characters/creatures have a limited number of attacks they can make in a single round compared to a group working together as a formation.
The nature of the group's formation and the specific tactics depends on the nature of their abilities and the circumstances of the encounter. If it is truly a situation where attacks can come from any direction then the group needs to fight in a formation that accounts for that. And there are several from history and fiction.
You got a good point I forgot here too, it's not always a straight line. Another common tactic I've found is to have the party bottleneck opponents in doorways. It reduces fighting strength, and it can give cover against missile fire.
Regarding Captain Pazuzu's original question, you could give certain bonuses to fighters to encourage this kind of tactics. Perhaps they can pull up shields in defensive formation to get a bonus to AC versus missile attacks, or something like that.
Quote from: Domina on December 21, 2023, 11:30:23 AM
Frontline formations don't do anything. Martials have exactly zero ability to stop the monsters from targeting casters with their spell like abilities. That's also assuming front line even means anything when you can be attacked from any direction or all directions at any time.
A smart party will attempt to move the engagement to a place that is more favorable. Retreat and reform in an empty chamber where the fighters can hold the entryway. If you just stand there and fight on the monster's home turf then you are already at a disadvantage.
Quote from: 1stLevelWizard on December 21, 2023, 02:46:10 PM
Quote from: estar on December 21, 2023, 02:30:05 PM
Quote from: Domina on December 21, 2023, 11:30:23 AM
Frontline formations don't do anything. Martials have exactly zero ability to stop the monsters from targeting casters with their spell like abilities. That's also assuming front line even means anything when you can be attacked from any direction or all directions at any time.
The general rule concerning tactics is that they allow a force to concentrate its firepower at a time and place where it will be the most effective.
Fighting in a formation doesn't always mean fighting in a straight line. It means operating in concert in way that maximizes the group's firepower effectiveness.
Multiple combatants regardless of edition are by far the biggest threat because the more combatants a force has the more attack they have and the more damage they have. Fighting as formation allows the group to efficiently whittle down the number of opponents faster than if the battle was fought as a series of individual skirmishes.
Fighting as a formation also allows the group to engage and win against superior opponents particularly if the opponent is a single creature or character. Outside of some area-effect powers and abilities, even the most powerful characters/creatures have a limited number of attacks they can make in a single round compared to a group working together as a formation.
The nature of the group's formation and the specific tactics depends on the nature of their abilities and the circumstances of the encounter. If it is truly a situation where attacks can come from any direction then the group needs to fight in a formation that accounts for that. And there are several from history and fiction.
You got a good point I forgot here too, it's not always a straight line. Another common tactic I've found is to have the party bottleneck opponents in doorways. It reduces fighting strength, and it can give cover against missile fire.
Regarding Captain Pazuzu's original question, you could give certain bonuses to fighters to encourage this kind of tactics. Perhaps they can pull up shields in defensive formation to get a bonus to AC versus missile attacks, or something like that.
Never encountered anything with an at will teleport?
Quote from: Exploderwizard on December 21, 2023, 02:46:31 PM
Quote from: Domina on December 21, 2023, 11:30:23 AM
Frontline formations don't do anything. Martials have exactly zero ability to stop the monsters from targeting casters with their spell like abilities. That's also assuming front line even means anything when you can be attacked from any direction or all directions at any time.
A smart party will attempt to move the engagement to a place that is more favorable. Retreat and reform in an empty chamber where the fighters can hold the entryway. If you just stand there and fight on the monster's home turf then you are already at a disadvantage.
Which location is favorable against creatures that can move through any solid matter?
Are we assuming 5e? Is this theater of the mind or actual miniatures and 5 foot map spacing?
20 shadows, so I assume a larger number of players or higher level? My immediate thought if it's 5e and feats are allowed would be folks with things like sentinel and/or tunnel fighting (if UA is in play) next to the squishier party members to protect them and limit enemy mobility above ground . Dunno if going into the floor counts as leaving reach, but I kinda feel it should, and if so spacing for opportunity attacks could matter too.
I guess you could also have folks with magic weapon or the like where they can reach the melee classes, to make their attacks more viable against the shadow foes, since typically you need magic or elemental damage in 5e to do as much there. Same with lesser restoration folks being within touch range of those in need.
Positioning and spacing could matter if you want to take away the cover of the floor (Is there a room beneath where the fight is taking place that the shadows are retreating to?), or drop an AOE, I guess. Held attacks will potentially have reach and spacing mattering quite a bit too, which I could certainly see as key here. Cover seems unlikely to benefit the players, but might do so for the enemies I guess? Might need to be aware of that for ranged weapons and some magical ranged attacks and the like. Or just consider spacing and positioning for retreat so as not to get in one another's way.
Feel like there isn't one formation answer per se, especially without knowing the specifics of the scenario. That said, in D&D spacing and oftentimes related tactical know-how tends to matter a fair bit unless playing theater of the mind with loose or quantum positioning rules.
Quote from: KindaMeh on December 21, 2023, 02:55:35 PM
20 shadows, so I assume a larger number of players or higher level?
No. If you go to a place where there are twenty shadows hanging out, you encounter twenty shadows. Doesn't matter if you're a level zero farmer or an army of gods.
Come on, where's your tactical genius? Surely it doesn't depend on your opponents being polite?
I think many of my points still apply. Though this may be a kobayashi maru either designed by the dungeon master or triggered by player stupidity or prior action. Maybe with a dash of bad luck. Also... It's not so much tactical genius as the fact that spacing tactics will still apply in most combat scenarios where victory or loss is uncertain. Like, I'm not the best tactician, but when you talked about the scenario possibilities came to mind where formation might matter if victory or retreat is not already nonviable. *shrugs*
It's a cool scenario, but I don't think it totally negates spacing and positioning/formations as viable to the extent folks might want to use them, as described.
Quote from: KindaMeh on December 21, 2023, 03:05:25 PM
I think many of my points still apply. Though this may be a kobayashi maru either designed by the dungeon master or triggered by player stupidity or prior action. Maybe with a dash of bad luck. Also... It's not so much tactical genius as the fact that spacing tactics will still apply in most combat scenarios where victory or loss is uncertain. Like, I'm not the best tactician, but when you talked about the scenario possibilities came to mind where formation might matter if victory or retreat is not already nonviable. *shrugs*
It's a cool scenario, but I don't think it totally negates spacing and positioning/formations as viable to the extent folks might want to use them, as described.
Ok cool. So what, exactly, would you do? Be specific.
Quote from: Domina on December 21, 2023, 02:58:20 PM
Quote from: KindaMeh on December 21, 2023, 02:55:35 PM
20 shadows, so I assume a larger number of players or higher level?
No. If you go to a place where there are twenty shadows hanging out, you encounter twenty shadows. Doesn't matter if you're a level zero farmer or an army of gods.
Come on, where's your tactical genius? Surely it doesn't depend on your opponents being polite?
There is this tactic when hopelessly outclassed called retreat. Most modern day players never use it and instead just fight until a TPK happens. If the party is of a level that makes victory impossible, leave the area completely and seek your fortune elsewhere.
One of the little known (and forgotten) rules when it came to fighters in AD&D 1st ed is fighters can attack monsters less than 1 HD equal to the level of the fighter.
The fighters specialty is laying waste to creatures that attack on mass: orcs, goblins, kobolds, giant rats, etc.
check under the fighter's attack matrix in the PHB or on the DM Screen. It's there.
20 goblins? No problem for a 5th level Fighter!
Great idea. Unfortunately, "Fly 40 ft"
Good luck!
Quote from: blackstone on December 21, 2023, 03:14:44 PM
One of the little known (and forgotten) rules when it came to fighters in AD&D 1st ed is fighters can attack monsters less than 1 HD equal to the level of the fighter.
The fighters specialty is laying waste to creatures that attack on mass: orcs, goblins, kobolds, giant rats, etc.
check under the fighter's attack matrix in the PHB or on the DM Screen. It's there.
20 goblins? No problem for a 5th level Fighter!
20 shadows*
Quote from: Domina on December 21, 2023, 03:15:50 PM
Quote from: blackstone on December 21, 2023, 03:14:44 PM
One of the little known (and forgotten) rules when it came to fighters in AD&D 1st ed is fighters can attack monsters less than 1 HD equal to the level of the fighter.
The fighters specialty is laying waste to creatures that attack on mass: orcs, goblins, kobolds, giant rats, etc.
check under the fighter's attack matrix in the PHB or on the DM Screen. It's there.
20 goblins? No problem for a 5th level Fighter!
20 shadows*
if they're less than 1 HD, sure.
Quote from: blackstone on December 21, 2023, 03:17:54 PM
Quote from: Domina on December 21, 2023, 03:15:50 PM
Quote from: blackstone on December 21, 2023, 03:14:44 PM
One of the little known (and forgotten) rules when it came to fighters in AD&D 1st ed is fighters can attack monsters less than 1 HD equal to the level of the fighter.
The fighters specialty is laying waste to creatures that attack on mass: orcs, goblins, kobolds, giant rats, etc.
check under the fighter's attack matrix in the PHB or on the DM Screen. It's there.
20 goblins? No problem for a 5th level Fighter!
20 shadows*
if they're less than 1 HD, sure.
Completely immune to all non magical attacks, and automatic 50% miss chance against almost all attacks.
Quote from: Domina on December 21, 2023, 02:48:20 PM
Never encountered anything with an at will teleport?
Oh certainly. Formations are never water tight, but having a good set up helps negate stuff like that. So those guys with pole arms I mentioned could carry short swords, and the wizard could have a spell prepared in case of a FUBAR. Then they can engage or flee as needed. If I've learned anything, it's to prepare for the worst. In this case it means preparing for a break in formation or plan.
How are you going to flee from something with at will teleport that doesn't need to rest?
Quote from: Domina on December 21, 2023, 03:19:09 PM
Quote from: blackstone on December 21, 2023, 03:17:54 PM
Quote from: Domina on December 21, 2023, 03:15:50 PM
Quote from: blackstone on December 21, 2023, 03:14:44 PM
One of the little known (and forgotten) rules when it came to fighters in AD&D 1st ed is fighters can attack monsters less than 1 HD equal to the level of the fighter.
The fighters specialty is laying waste to creatures that attack on mass: orcs, goblins, kobolds, giant rats, etc.
check under the fighter's attack matrix in the PHB or on the DM Screen. It's there.
20 goblins? No problem for a 5th level Fighter!
20 shadows*
if they're less than 1 HD, sure.
Completely immune to all non magical attacks, and automatic 50% miss chance against almost all attacks.
and? My 5th level fighter might have a magical weapon of some sort by this time in his career. what's your point?
My suggestion is to the OP. I could give two shits about your 5e hypothetical situation.
Is the point to show that sometimes formations and spacing aren't enough? Because that I could buy, sometimes things are just a loss. Likewise, I could get that creativity beyond that and expecting the unexpected are potentially key.
I do still think most of what I said applies as giving additional leverage for adventurers levels 3-4 or above. They will probably die, but slightly better. What with feats, fighting styles, and spells available, pretty much everything said could theoretically matter. If you don't pick those in advance or have access to them... Held action reach, cover, spacing for opportunity attacks, and cetera could matter at lower levels too. AOE cantrips are apparently a thing, so friendly fire could still matter, even. Who's closest to the door and what are folks mobility and bottlenecking for a flight from the foes? Will they have to take extra movement to move through friendly spaces? See also retreat spacing and the like. You'll still probably lose, but the process and even the outcomes may look a bit different depending.
The point of what I'm saying here isn't to demean your contribution to the conversation or something. I think you're trying to get at the importance of approaching these games as more than just tactical board war games. Just trying to point out that even in 5e positioning and spacing of allies and enemies and such, including with respect to terrain, can prospectively matter. It'll depend on system, scenario and DM how or to what degree that can really be leveraged, but I wouldn't call it altogether a non-factor. Maybe that's not what you were interested in or talking about, but wanted to bring it up, especially within the context of more martial classes. Where even if your opponents can do whatever, you may yourself be limited to more mundane advantages and skill set.
IDK, am I responding and interpreting roughly on topic or less so?
Quote from: Domina on December 21, 2023, 03:15:24 PM
Great idea. Unfortunately, "Fly 40 ft"
Good luck!
I mean, fighters can fly too. A magic-user can cast it on them, or there's a bunch of items that can do it.
Generally, if the enemies have a pile of magical powers and movement that's all over the place, the fighters will too, one way or another. They are in the same high-magic world, why would they be left out?
My point is that they're not going to sit there and politely let you attack them all at the same time. At most three will ever be exposed in a given round against a single target. Let's say they're nice enough to not go back underground until their next turn after attacking. Let's also say that they're whatever HD you want, even though shadows have 3 HD. So each round you get to attack 3 shadows with a 50% chance to miss even if you have an infinite attack bonus. Meanwhile you get to take three touch attacks that drain your strength if they hit (they will, since your armor and most of your bonuses are ignored), for an average of 3.5 x 3 = 10.5 strength damage each round. Let's be extremely generous and say your fighter 5 has 30 strength. Even if you automatically kill 3 shadows every round (you won't), your strength will be reduced to zero in three rounds on average and you will die and return as a shadow.
Quote from: KindaMeh on December 21, 2023, 03:25:14 PM
Is the point to show that sometimes formations and spacing aren't enough?
No, the point is that every d&d player who thinks he's a super smart tactician doesn't know fucking anything. Everything they know about the game is based around DMs who play monsters like they're retarded. They genuinely think Tucker's Kobolds are some kind of crazy impressive 4d gigabrain play.
Quote from: Domina on December 21, 2023, 02:36:30 PM
Okay. Twenty shadows float up through the floor simultaneously and grab the ankles of every party member, forcing multiple saves against strength drain. They retreat back through the floor afterwards. Which formation helps against this?
First off Shadows are not incorporeal creatures from various editions of D&D. But for the sake of the debate we will say the party is fighting on a gravel surface that is porous enough for shadows to squeeze through.
You spread out your group about three to five feet apart keeping eyes on the ground around your compatriot's feet. A trained combatant situational awareness can easily encompass two or three of their allies' feet. The shadow's attack is a melee attack which means its hands will be partially exposed. At which point folks attack.
It is foolproof? No of course not. Tactics are not foolproof. But everybody working together will mean a superior chance for survival than the alternatives.
What people actually do is smarter. They don't let themselves get into a situation where they have to make a stand where shadows can grab their ankles through the ground. They will invest in reconnaissance followed by a expedition style organization of the group where the approach to each area is tailored to the expected dangers.
For the area with the shadows, the group will make sure they have a caster or item capable of casting daylight along with limiting the avenues of approach by placing or creating impermeable barriers along the exploration route.
If it is something else that is incorporeal then the approach will be tailored accordingly.
Quote from: Domina on December 21, 2023, 03:30:30 PM
My point is that they're not going to sit there and politely let you attack them all at the same time. At most three will ever be exposed in a given round against a single target. Let's say they're nice enough to not go back underground until their next turn after attacking. Let's also say that they're whatever HD you want, even though shadows have 3 HD. So each round you get to attack 3 shadows with a 50% chance to miss even if you have an infinite attack bonus. Meanwhile you get to take three touch attacks that drain your strength if they hit (they will, since your armor and most of your bonuses are ignored), for an average of 3.5 x 3 = 10.5 strength damage each round. Let's be extremely generous and say your fighter 5 has 30 strength. Even if you automatically kill 3 shadows every round (you won't), your strength will be reduced to zero in three rounds on average and you will die and return as a shadow.
This is what 5e does to your brain folks. It makes you ADD and OCD.
Ok, that's one retarded situation you came up with that my come up once in a blue moon. got any more?
Quote from: Venka on December 21, 2023, 03:27:36 PM
Quote from: Domina on December 21, 2023, 03:15:24 PM
Great idea. Unfortunately, "Fly 40 ft"
Good luck!
I mean, fighters can fly too. A magic-user can cast it on them, or there's a bunch of items that can do it.
Generally, if the enemies have a pile of magical powers and movement that's all over the place, the fighters will too, one way or another. They are in the same high-magic world, why would they be left out?
For 5e I'd assume level 2 rogue or some kind of high movement species monk would probably have the best shot at escaping. But I guess you never do know what the party may have up their sleeves. I may have focused a bit too much on core class abilities and related positioning.
Edit- saw newer post. So this is more a philosophical game theory and player mindset discussion than a literal question of how positioning and formation impacts fighter and other class strategy in 5e or the like? Or how to escape or best put up a fight against however many shadows? Makes sense, I guess. I kinda just took the bait and thought maybe it was cuz I like theorycrafting.
You do make decent points in the abstract, I feel, if I interpreted semi-correctly.
Quote from: Domina on December 21, 2023, 03:35:53 PM
No, the point is that every d&d player who thinks he's a super smart tactician doesn't know fucking anything. Everything they know about the game is based around DMs who play monsters like they're retarded. They genuinely think Tucker's Kobolds are some kind of crazy impressive 4d gigabrain play.
I see you are making a lot of assumptions about those who are participating in this thread.
But hey whatever brings you joy this Christmas season.
Good job, your recon team is now additional shadows.
Quote from: estar on December 21, 2023, 03:40:30 PM
Quote from: Domina on December 21, 2023, 03:35:53 PM
No, the point is that every d&d player who thinks he's a super smart tactician doesn't know fucking anything. Everything they know about the game is based around DMs who play monsters like they're retarded. They genuinely think Tucker's Kobolds are some kind of crazy impressive 4d gigabrain play.
I see you are making a lot of assumptions about those who are participating in this thread.
But hey whatever brings you joy this Christmas season.
All of the assumptions are correct.
Quote from: estar on December 21, 2023, 03:36:25 PM
Quote from: Domina on December 21, 2023, 02:36:30 PM
Okay. Twenty shadows float up through the floor simultaneously and grab the ankles of every party member, forcing multiple saves against strength drain. They retreat back through the floor afterwards. Which formation helps against this?
First off Shadows are not incorporeal creatures from various editions of D&D. But for the sake of the debate we will say the party is fighting on a gravel surface that is porous enough for shadows to squeeze through.
You spread out your group about three to five feet apart keeping eyes on the ground around your compatriot's feet. A trained combatant situational awareness can easily encompass two or three of their allies' feet. The shadow's attack is a melee attack which means its hands will be partially exposed. At which point folks attack.
It is foolproof? No of course not. Tactics are not foolproof. But everybody working together will mean a superior chance for survival than the alternatives.
What people actually do is smarter. They don't let themselves get into a situation where they have to make a stand where shadows can grab their ankles through the ground. They will invest in reconnaissance followed by a expedition style organization of the group where the approach to each area is tailored to the expected dangers.
For the area with the shadows, the group will make sure they have a caster or item capable of casting daylight along with limiting the avenues of approach by placing or creating impermeable barriers along the exploration route.
If it is something else that is incorporeal then the approach will be tailored accordingly.
Also, daylight doesn't do anything to shadows. Incredible tactical reasoning and game knowledge.
Quote from: blackstone on December 21, 2023, 03:37:15 PM
Quote from: Domina on December 21, 2023, 03:30:30 PM
My point is that they're not going to sit there and politely let you attack them all at the same time. At most three will ever be exposed in a given round against a single target. Let's say they're nice enough to not go back underground until their next turn after attacking. Let's also say that they're whatever HD you want, even though shadows have 3 HD. So each round you get to attack 3 shadows with a 50% chance to miss even if you have an infinite attack bonus. Meanwhile you get to take three touch attacks that drain your strength if they hit (they will, since your armor and most of your bonuses are ignored), for an average of 3.5 x 3 = 10.5 strength damage each round. Let's be extremely generous and say your fighter 5 has 30 strength. Even if you automatically kill 3 shadows every round (you won't), your strength will be reduced to zero in three rounds on average and you will die and return as a shadow.
This is what 5e does to your brain folks. It makes you ADD and OCD.
Ok, that's one retarded situation you came up with that my come up once in a blue moon. got any more?
I've never played 5e. Feel free to point out anything at all I said that was incorrect.
Also it's funny that you're now arguing that knowing the rules is a mental disorder. Really running out of arguments huh? Just to be clear, to be a good tactician, you have to not know how the game works? Is that your assertion?
Quote from: Domina on December 21, 2023, 03:15:50 PM
20 shadows*
20 goblins is a very different encounter than 20 shadows. 20 goblins is a common threat that will plague many villages near mountains and even forests, and a 5th level fighter being able to often slay six per round (or at least make six attacks per round) is pretty damned incredible.
20 shadows is a much rarer threat. Shadows are vastly more powerful than goblins, have 3+3 HD instead of 1-1 or whatever. Shadows in 1e just means you have to have a +1 sword, and by the time you are facing 20 of them, you sure as hell do. The 50% miss rate for incorporeal (and immunity to nonmagical attacks) is a 3.X thing, where 20 goblins is encounter level 5, appropriate and difficult for your level 5 party, whereas 20 shadows is an encounter level 12 fight- "overpowering" and a party should not be engaging.
If your game involves a bunch of flight powers, hellbeam casting, wall-phasing, teleport-at-will, sword-ignoring ghosts, your problem is not with the fighter class, it's that you adjusted all the monsters without adjusting the player character classes. Your fighters should have magical weapons (true in every version starting around levels 4 to 7, even versions that lie about that fact), and they should have magical items that work in such a world.
Ultimately, some monsters have powers that are meant to be employed tactically. Some have powers that are actually too good if employed fully effectively. A well designed monster is in the first category- most dragons have a bunch of powers that they need to employ intelligently or else they'll get chopped to bits instantly. Some monsters, such as some of the incorporeal 3.5 monsters, end up overpowering if in a place that works with their powers. Even 5e monsters are a big problem if the room is a bunch of five foot corridors with five foot walls in between them, or some other nightmare scenario. Why are the Int 6 shadows in such an environment? Was it the work of an evil wizard? Why does he have 20 shadows obeying him? Some macguffin, right? That's not an issue with player tactics, or the fighter class.
Frankly I'm not impressed with some of this logic. Someone brings up the multiple attacks from 1e fighters against sub-1-hit die monsters, and then instantly we have a mix of the 5th and 3rd edition shadows instead of whatever was being discussed. I dunno man, it just seems odd.
Who knows why the shadows are there? I doubt you have time to wonder about such things while half your strength is being deleted every round. Maybe you should focus on tactics before you all die.
Also thanks for bringing up dragons as an example - the primary poster boy for the monster that utterly wrecks shit unless the DM has it land and claw/claw/bite every round.
Quote from: Domina on December 21, 2023, 03:45:39 PM
Also, daylight doesn't do anything to shadows. Incredible tactical reasoning and game knowledge.
Daylight reduces their ability to hide and attack.
Quote from: estar on December 21, 2023, 03:53:26 PM
Quote from: Domina on December 21, 2023, 03:45:39 PM
Also, daylight doesn't do anything to shadows. Incredible tactical reasoning and game knowledge.
Daylight reduces their ability to hide and attack.
Their ability to hide and attack is completely independent of the light level, actually. Their miss chance doesn't depend on concealment.
Quote from: Domina on December 21, 2023, 03:54:37 PM
Their ability to hide and attack is completely independent of the light level, actually.
Very much reduced in sunlight.
Quote from: Domina on December 21, 2023, 03:54:37 PM
Their miss chance doesn't depend on concealment.
Yes it does
Quote from: estar on December 21, 2023, 03:58:43 PM
Quote from: Domina on December 21, 2023, 03:54:37 PM
Their ability to hide and attack is completely independent of the light level, actually.
Very much reduced in sunlight.
Quote from: Domina on December 21, 2023, 03:54:37 PM
Their miss chance doesn't depend on concealment.
Yes it does
An incorporeal creature has no physical body. It can be harmed only by other incorporeal creatures, magic weapons or creatures that strike as magic weapons, and spells, spell-like abilities, or supernatural abilities. It is immune to all nonmagical attack forms. Even when hit by spells or magic weapons, it has a 50% chance to ignore any damage from a corporeal source (except for positive energy, negative energy, force effects such as magic missile, or attacks made with ghost touch weapons). Although it is not a magical attack, holy water can affect incorporeal undead, but a hit with holy water has a 50% chance of not affecting an incorporeal creature.
Idiot.
Shadow Greater Shadow
Size/Type: Medium Undead (Incorporeal) Medium Undead (Incorporeal)
Please, continue embarrassing yourself.
Quote from: Domina on December 21, 2023, 04:03:13 PM
Shadow Greater Shadow
Size/Type: Medium Undead (Incorporeal) Medium Undead (Incorporeal)
Please, continue embarrassing yourself.
Shadow Medium Undead Chaotic Evil
Amorphous
Strength Drain
Shadow Stealth
Sunlight Weakness
I am not the one being embarrassed here.
Quote from: estar on December 21, 2023, 04:06:24 PM
Quote from: Domina on December 21, 2023, 04:03:13 PM
Shadow Greater Shadow
Size/Type: Medium Undead (Incorporeal) Medium Undead (Incorporeal)
Please, continue embarrassing yourself.
Shadow Medium Undead Chaotic Evil
Amorphous
Strength Drain
Shadow Stealth
Sunlight Weakness
I am not the one being embarrassed here.
Aww, I'm sorry, is this edition too HARD for you? The great master of tactics can't adapt?
Quote from: Domina on December 21, 2023, 03:54:37 PM
Their ability to hide and attack is completely independent of the light level, actually. Their miss chance doesn't depend on concealment.
Ok, so can you pick a version please?
In AD&D 1e, shadows are 90% undetectable unless bright light is cast (continual light being the example). They have low intelligence and as such are unlikely to employ clever tactics. Does sunlight mess with them?
Absolutely! It says "bright light is cast", but it doesn't say from a spell. And continual light is most definitely dimmer than daylight ("nearly as illuminating as full daylight" is in the spell description). So yea, these shadows are detectable in daylight. These monsters take a +1 weapon to hit them at all, so, I mean, the team needs to make that happen.
In AD&D 2e, it
explicitly states that "in bright light they can be clearly seen". This was obviously always the intention, but now you don't have to look up
continual light to figure it out.
In 3.X, we have the following text:
A shadow gains a +4 racial bonus on Hide checks in areas of shadowy illumination. In brightly lit areas, it takes a -4 penalty on Hide checks. So this doesn't instantly reveal them, but going from +12 hide down to +4 hide is an incredibly huge swing. They won't be hiding in bright light or day light very easily. Again Int 6- no cunning plans for these guys. The "+1 or better to hit" requirement is at this point inherited from the incorporeal tag, which makes them immune to nonmagical weapons and only 50% likely to be hit by a magical weapon BUT this is third edition, you can just pay some wizard a well defined amount of gold to add
ghost touch to a weapon. Since that needs to be an a +1 weapon and costs a +1 enchantment to work, this is 8000 gold, but hey, someone on your team needs that because not just shadows are incorporeal. If you looted a +1 weapon somewhere, it's only an additional 6000 gold.
In 4e the shadow can take a stealth check to hide when it has concealment instead of total concealment. These terms are, of course, defined in the analog video game of 4th edition. These shadows are Int 12 for some reason, and also have powers to merge with your shadow until you win a 55% save check every round.
In 5e they again have Int 6, so back to shortbus tatics, and there's no 50% miss rate for them any more. They have inherited a crossbreed of the 3rd and 4th power for hiding in shadows:
Shadow Stealth. While in dim light or darkness, the shadow can take the Hide action as a bonus action. Its stealth bonus is also improved to +6. (their stealth bonus is normally +4).
They also get this little blurb:
Sunlight Weakness. While in sunlight, the shadow has disadvantage on attack rolls, ability checks, and saving throws. Certain higher level spells "are sunlight" in 5e (sunbeam at 6th, sunburst at 8th, and an optional spell in Xanathar's at 5th).
So sunlight in all versions makes them either unable to hide or gives them fits doing it, and in 5e it wrecks them totally. In most versions even mid level light spells turn off their stealth bonus.
Quote from: Venka on December 21, 2023, 04:18:21 PM
Quote from: Domina on December 21, 2023, 03:54:37 PM
Their ability to hide and attack is completely independent of the light level, actually. Their miss chance doesn't depend on concealment.
Ok, so can you pick a version please?
In AD&D 1e, shadows are 90% undetectable unless bright light is cast (continual light being the example). They have low intelligence and as such are unlikely to employ clever tactics. Does sunlight mess with them? Absolutely! It says "bright light is cast", but it doesn't say from a spell. And continual light is most definitely dimmer than daylight ("nearly as illuminating as full daylight" is in the spell description). So yea, these shadows are detectable in daylight. These monsters take a +1 weapon to hit them at all, so, I mean, the team needs to make that happen.
In AD&D 2e, it explicitly states that "in bright light they can be clearly seen". This was obviously always the intention, but now you don't have to look up continual light to figure it out.
In 3.X, we have the following text: A shadow gains a +4 racial bonus on Hide checks in areas of shadowy illumination. In brightly lit areas, it takes a -4 penalty on Hide checks.
So this doesn't instantly reveal them, but going from +12 hide down to +4 hide is an incredibly huge swing. They won't be hiding in bright light or day light very easily. Again Int 6- no cunning plans for these guys. The "+1 or better to hit" requirement is at this point inherited from the incorporeal tag, which makes them immune to nonmagical weapons and only 50% likely to be hit by a magical weapon BUT this is third edition, you can just pay some wizard a well defined amount of gold to add ghost touch to a weapon. Since that needs to be an a +1 weapon and costs a +1 enchantment to work, this is 8000 gold, but hey, someone on your team needs that because not just shadows are incorporeal. If you looted a +1 weapon somewhere, it's only an additional 6000 gold.
In 4e the shadow can take a stealth check to hide when it has concealment instead of total concealment. These terms are, of course, defined in the analog video game of 4th edition. These shadows are Int 12 for some reason, and also have powers to merge with your shadow until you win a 55% save check every round.
In 5e they again have Int 6, so back to shortbus tatics, and there's no 50% miss rate for them any more. They have inherited a crossbreed of the 3rd and 4th power for hiding in shadows: Shadow Stealth. While in dim light or darkness, the shadow can take the Hide action as a bonus action. Its stealth bonus is also improved to +6. (their stealth bonus is normally +4).
They also get this little blurb: Sunlight Weakness. While in sunlight, the shadow has disadvantage on attack rolls, ability checks, and saving throws. Certain higher level spells "are sunlight" in 5e (sunbeam at 6th, sunburst at 8th, and an optional spell in Xanathar's at 5th).
So sunlight in all versions makes them either unable to hide or gives them fits doing it, and in 5e it wrecks them totally. In most versions even mid level light spells turn off their stealth bonus, and in 5e high level sun spells just wreck them totally.
They don't need to hide. You're not threatening enough.
Quote from: Domina on December 21, 2023, 04:13:41 PM
Aww, I'm sorry, is this edition too HARD for you? The great master of tactics can't adapt?
Edition? OK, I hire four priests and add them to the expedition. Between the four of them, they have the following odds.
0 to 6.25% No Shadows are banished
6.25 to 31.25% 2d6 Shadows banished
31.25% to 68.75% 4d6 shadows banished
68.75% to 93.75% 6d6 shadows banished.
93.75% to 100.00% 8d6 shadows banished.
They can do this every round.
"One or more extraplanar creatures, no two of which can be more than 30 ft. apart"
Shadows aren't extraplanar, nice try though.
Quote from: Domina on December 21, 2023, 04:19:02 PM
They don't need to hide. You're not threatening enough.
You'll find I'm not amenable to goalpost shifting. If you're going to discuss specifics, you need to set a framework. Some of your hypotheticals have already involved cases where the shadows hide, and you've said things like "Also, daylight doesn't do anything to shadows. Incredible tactical reasoning and game knowledge.", and "Their ability to hide and attack is completely independent of the light level, actually.", both of which are wrong in every version.
Now their ability
to attack is only nerfed in 5e, but that's not a great point when you've not pinned down a specific shadow. You
appear to betalking about
Dungeons and Dragons 3.5 and no other thing. Is that the case?
Quote from: Venka on December 21, 2023, 04:25:32 PM
Quote from: Domina on December 21, 2023, 04:19:02 PM
They don't need to hide. You're not threatening enough.
You'll find I'm not amenable to goalpost shifting. If you're going to discuss specifics, you need to set a framework. Some of your hypotheticals have already involved cases where the shadows hide, and you've said things like "Also, daylight doesn't do anything to shadows. Incredible tactical reasoning and game knowledge.", and "Their ability to hide and attack is completely independent of the light level, actually.", both of which are wrong in every version.
Now their ability to attack is only nerfed in 5e, but that's not a great point when you've not pinned down a specific shadow. You appear to betalking about Dungeons and Dragons 3.5 and no other thing. Is that the case?
I don't need to do any such thing. You don't have the authority to demand anything of me. I will provide whatever information suits my whim, and you will continue to re-roll characters until such time as my sadism is satisfied.
A shadow has the same attack bonus in full light and in darkness.
A shadow has 50% miss chance in full light and in darkness.
Quote from: Domina on December 21, 2023, 04:28:46 PM
I don't need to do any such thing.
Lol you sure fucking do. "I have a pile of houserules that means that fighters are underpowered and all tactics are full retard."
This sounds like a conversation of interest to your table and absolutely no one else. Frankly, you are trolling an otherwise good thread with a pile of things that aren't simultaneously true in any actual version of D&D. If your mishmash complex version number D̶̨̉ṳ̵͗n̴͚̋J̷̞̒u̶̧̓n̸̡̐s̸̝̊ ̸͑ͅ ̷̗͗ & ̸̫̋Ḑ̴̿r̸͙̍a̷̟͂g̸͚͑ŵ̴̥y̴̜͌n̷̹͒s̸̝͝s 3+2i has an issue, well, try posting in whatever dimension knows what the hell you are talking about.
Quote from: Venka on December 21, 2023, 04:37:51 PM
Quote from: Domina on December 21, 2023, 04:28:46 PM
I don't need to do any such thing.
Lol you sure fucking do. "I have a pile of houserules that means that fighters are underpowered and all tactics are full retard."
This sounds like a conversation of interest to your table and absolutely no one else. Frankly, you are trolling an otherwise good thread with a pile of things that aren't simultaneously true in any actual version of D&D. If your mishmash complex version number D̶̨̉ṳ̵͗n̴͚̋J̷̞̒u̶̧̓n̸̡̐s̸̝̊ ̸͑ͅ ̷̗͗ & ̸̫̋Ḑ̴̿r̸͙̍a̷̟͂g̸͚͑ŵ̴̥y̴̜͌n̷̹͒s̸̝͝s 3+2i has an issue, well, try posting in whatever dimension knows what the hell you are talking about.
Cope and mald lol
Quote from: Domina on December 21, 2023, 04:39:39 PM\
Cope and mald lol
"Cope" doesn't apply, because that would mean that there was some real thing that I was trying to mitigate. There isn't.
"Mald" kinda does because I foolishly took you as a useful contributor to the thread. I'll not make that mistake again.
Quote from: Venka on December 21, 2023, 04:50:18 PM
Quote from: Domina on December 21, 2023, 04:39:39 PM\
Cope and mald lol
"Cope" doesn't apply, because that would mean that there was some real thing that I was trying to mitigate. There isn't.
"Mald" kinda does because I foolishly took you as a useful contributor to the thread. I'll not make that mistake again.
Yep, you're coping and malding :)
Quote from: Domina on December 21, 2023, 04:51:10 PM
Quote from: Venka on December 21, 2023, 04:50:18 PM
Quote from: Domina on December 21, 2023, 04:39:39 PM\
Cope and mald lol
"Cope" doesn't apply, because that would mean that there was some real thing that I was trying to mitigate. There isn't.
"Mald" kinda does because I foolishly took you as a useful contributor to the thread. I'll not make that mistake again.
Yep, you're coping and malding :)
and you're trolling by being an utter douche nozzle.
Have a day, fuck face.
Quantum Encounters in Quantum Edition is not even sophistry, just pathetic wanna-be pedantic idiocy. Most of us nerds got over this childish debate antic by junior high, and for most of us that is decades ago. :) We all go through that power trip phase and then we grow up and seriously engage with conversations and their context.
One day you can too! ;D
Are there any editions where opportunity attacks aren't a thing fighters can do on average better than other folks? I do feel like a lot of 3.5 and 5e formations and tactics seem to rely pretty heavily on those. By contrast, in games like OSRIC you can actually meaningfully engage an opponent to prevent them from reaching your casters. Have things moved away from the frontline being able to as effectively halt enemy movement without relying on opportunity attacks or discouragement through beatings? Might be part of why back in the day fighters were allegedly more respected...
Quote from: KindaMeh on December 21, 2023, 08:03:20 PM
Are there any editions where opportunity attacks aren't a thing fighters can do on average better than other folks? I do feel like a lot of 3.5 and 5e formations and tactics seem to rely pretty heavily on those. By contrast, in games like OSRIC you can actually meaningfully engage an opponent to prevent them from reaching your casters. Have things moved away from the frontline being able to as effectively halt enemy movement without relying on opportunity attacks or discouragement through beatings? Might be part of why back in the day fighters were allegedly more respected...
You could effectively halt enemy movement in 3e, but like you said there was a big emphasis on Attacks of Opportunity. I think it ended up taking away from the idea of spearmen in the second row since they'd only get their attacks of opportunity if they were in the front row where the enemy would have to enter their zone of control 10ft away.
Then again, those levels of specifics are why I ended up going back to AD&D and BECMI.
Quote from: KindaMeh on December 21, 2023, 08:03:20 PM
Are there any editions where opportunity attacks aren't a thing fighters can do on average better than other folks? I do feel like a lot of 3.5 and 5e formations and tactics seem to rely pretty heavily on those. By contrast, in games like OSRIC you can actually meaningfully engage an opponent to prevent them from reaching your casters. Have things moved away from the frontline being able to as effectively halt enemy movement without relying on opportunity attacks or discouragement through beatings? Might be part of why back in the day fighters were allegedly more respected...
I think part of the charm of 1st ed fighters was that they leveled easier and tended to have better saving throws. Most monsters had saves set as fighter of equal HD.
But your point about opportunity attacks is well taken. It seems to be a core feature of battlefield control for fighters traditionally speaking. Not sure if that's a bad thing though.
Quote from: Opaopajr on December 21, 2023, 02:47:45 AM
:) I come from an older and different paradigm: whatever is not forbidden is allowed. So seeking push-button options for the things you are asking for is rather odd for me, predominantly a post-WotC D&D phenomenon. Many of the ideas you are asking for have been treated in TSR D&D, but it is predominantly in Party Tactics with the assumption that if one member falls another steps up to hold the line. So isolating it into a permission system, where other classes cannot participate in being in the front risking their lives in a similar way, seems unnecessary. ;) Anyone can risk their lives at the front, especially if you are forced to in a fighting retreat!
....
If you are interested in more there's several older books that explore these ideas, like 2e Complete Handbook: Fighters. Overall you could build a combat monster with specialized widgets, but I found isolating such fun tidbits less rewarding than opening it to everyone and then have a class stand heads above the rest in doing it.
Thanks for the response.
I'm probably older than you think but...
There is definitely a shift in time as editions go. My go-to move as a fighter since 1st ed was always to run and tackle the magic user. I've found some DMs are cool with it and others not. This kind of thing was cool in 1st and 2nd edition but tends to require special "rules" now.
Really I'm trying to come up with creative options to add more spice... if you will. I've played a lot of fighters in my 30+ years of play. I have often found that I wish I had more options beyond "attack."
There are some interesting 4th ed options around shifting yourself or your opponent but I'm looking more to things like...
A shout ability that lets you intimidate an enemy or maybe all enemies around you.
An ability that might grant a bonus to an ally (free action, counterattack, etc..)
Anything else that does not involve attacking an enemy.
Maybe I'm getting too cutesy with it? Who knows...?
Quote from: KindaMeh on December 21, 2023, 08:03:20 PM
Are there any editions where opportunity attacks aren't a thing fighters can do on average better than other folks? I do feel like a lot of 3.5 and 5e formations and tactics seem to rely pretty heavily on those. By contrast, in games like OSRIC you can actually meaningfully engage an opponent to prevent them from reaching your casters. Have things moved away from the frontline being able to as effectively halt enemy movement without relying on opportunity attacks or discouragement through beatings? Might be part of why back in the day fighters were allegedly more respected...
In my Majestic Fantasy RPG which is based on OD&D, I fleshed out combat and you can't just run through an opponent's space without trying to knock them down or push them away. I handle it the same way it would work out in life.
If you tried to get through a formation sure you can try to grab a combatant and throw or knock down. But that would leave vulnerable the other ranks and those to the side. The only time you would stand a chance is if you faced a single file line without a second rank. But you are trying to win an Athletic skill contest with somebody who is likely equally trained as strong as yourself.
My solution has been to find a game that already has fighter options. I want to be able to make a fighter different than other people.
I've found two I like.
1. Dungeons and Delvers Dice Pool Edition. This is the version with the Chibi style art and a yellow gear cog on the cover. It treats wizards and martial classes very similar. Every class gets to pick special powers from a list of 15 or so. The fun stuff is just about the same for all classes instead of the spell casters getting all the cool upgrades.
2. Olde Swords Reign. (Free game I might add). This one has fighter and "expert" feats (fyi an expert is just a silly way to say rogue). These feats allow you to customize your non-spell caster fighter or rogue (because I'm not a fragile, pearl clutching, Karen, I'm ok calling them rogues and not a sanitized name like expert). It is a feature I greatly appreciated since the game seemed to only have the classic four classes. Well, feats let you tweak your character to be unique. That's what I want.
https://osreign.com/ (https://osreign.com/)
There is the link to get their full, free game.
Quote from: blackstone on December 21, 2023, 03:14:44 PM
One of the little known (and forgotten) rules when it came to fighters in AD&D 1st ed is fighters can attack monsters less than 1 HD equal to the level of the fighter.
The fighters specialty is laying waste to creatures that attack on mass: orcs, goblins, kobolds, giant rats, etc.
check under the fighter's attack matrix in the PHB or on the DM Screen. It's there.
20 goblins? No problem for a 5th level Fighter!
Captain_Pazuzu: just wanted to make sure you saw this.
EDIT: I'm looking everywhere, but I can't find the rule. I could have sworn this was a thing. MAybe I'm thinking of another edition, or it might be on the DM's screen 1st print.
Quote from: blackstone on December 22, 2023, 07:50:57 AM
Captain_Pazuzu: just wanted to make sure you saw this.
Quote from: blackstone on December 22, 2023, 07:50:57 AM
EDIT: I'm looking everywhere, but I can't find the rule. I could have sworn this was a thing. MAybe I'm thinking of another edition, or it might be on the DM's screen 1st print.
Page 25 of the AD&D PHB
(https://songoftheblade.files.wordpress.com/2016/10/tg7imoq.png)
In OD&D it came from an official clarification in The Strategic Review Vol 1. Issue #2, Page 3.
(https://songoftheblade.files.wordpress.com/2016/10/grp8ff3.png)
Quote from: blackstone on December 21, 2023, 03:14:44 PM
One of the little known (and forgotten) rules when it came to fighters in AD&D 1st ed is fighters can attack monsters less than 1 HD equal to the level of the fighter.
It is in OD&D as well except the cutoff is 1 HD. In lieu of multiple attacks I expanded the rule in my Majestic Fantasy RPG to allow Fighters to attack a number of HD equal to the level. No cap on when it happens. So a 4th level Fighter will get 2 attacks on a 2 HD creatures. (or can take two of them). In the decade I been using it, it has worked out quite well.
Quote from: estar on December 22, 2023, 08:51:29 AM
Quote from: blackstone on December 22, 2023, 07:50:57 AM
Captain_Pazuzu: just wanted to make sure you saw this.
Quote from: blackstone on December 22, 2023, 07:50:57 AM
EDIT: I'm looking everywhere, but I can't find the rule. I could have sworn this was a thing. MAybe I'm thinking of another edition, or it might be on the DM's screen 1st print.
Page 25 of the AD&D PHB
(https://songoftheblade.files.wordpress.com/2016/10/tg7imoq.png)
In OD&D it came from an official clarification in The Strategic Review Vol 1. Issue #2, Page 3.
(https://songoftheblade.files.wordpress.com/2016/10/grp8ff3.png)
Quote from: blackstone on December 21, 2023, 03:14:44 PM
One of the little known (and forgotten) rules when it came to fighters in AD&D 1st ed is fighters can attack monsters less than 1 HD equal to the level of the fighter.
It is in OD&D as well except the cutoff is 1 HD. In lieu of multiple attacks I expanded the rule in my Majestic Fantasy RPG to allow Fighters to attack a number of HD equal to the level. No cap on when it happens. So a 4th level Fighter will get 2 attacks on a 2 HD creatures. (or can take two of them). In the decade I been using it, it has worked out quite well.
Thanks. I thought it was somewhere. I was thinking the DMG, not the PHB.
Question: the rule says "fighters". Does that mean the rule only applies to the core Fighter class, or sub-classes as well? I always interpreted it as just to the core Fighter. Rangers, paladins, etc. have other class abilities that make them attractive to play. I figure this one ability for Fighters would be at least one thing they excel at.
Interesting take on your rule when applying it to higher HD monsters as well.
Quote from: blackstone on December 22, 2023, 07:50:57 AM
Quote from: blackstone on December 21, 2023, 03:14:44 PM
One of the little known (and forgotten) rules when it came to fighters in AD&D 1st ed is fighters can attack monsters less than 1 HD equal to the level of the fighter.
The fighters specialty is laying waste to creatures that attack on mass: orcs, goblins, kobolds, giant rats, etc.
check under the fighter's attack matrix in the PHB or on the DM Screen. It's there.
20 goblins? No problem for a 5th level Fighter!
Captain_Pazuzu: just wanted to make sure you saw this.
EDIT: I'm looking everywhere, but I can't find the rule. I could have sworn this was a thing. MAybe I'm thinking of another edition, or it might be on the DM's screen 1st print.
Thanks.
Quote from: Captain_Pazuzu on December 22, 2023, 09:33:11 AM
Quote from: blackstone on December 22, 2023, 07:50:57 AM
Quote from: blackstone on December 21, 2023, 03:14:44 PM
One of the little known (and forgotten) rules when it came to fighters in AD&D 1st ed is fighters can attack monsters less than 1 HD equal to the level of the fighter.
The fighters specialty is laying waste to creatures that attack on mass: orcs, goblins, kobolds, giant rats, etc.
check under the fighter's attack matrix in the PHB or on the DM Screen. It's there.
20 goblins? No problem for a 5th level Fighter!
Captain_Pazuzu: just wanted to make sure you saw this.
EDIT: I'm looking everywhere, but I can't find the rule. I could have sworn this was a thing. MAybe I'm thinking of another edition, or it might be on the DM's screen 1st print.
Thanks.
o7
Quote from: weirdguy564 on December 21, 2023, 11:16:07 PM
(because I'm not a fragile, pearl clutching, Karen, I'm ok calling them rogues and not a sanitized name like expert).
Ha, different pearls for different folks I guess ... back in my day we called them "thieves" and "assassins" and snickered at the prudish Rogue! ;D
Quote from: blackstone on December 22, 2023, 09:32:52 AM
Question: the rule says "fighters". Does that mean the rule only applies to the core Fighter class, or sub-classes as well? I always interpreted it as just to the core Fighter. Rangers, paladins, etc. have other class abilities that make them attractive to play. I figure this one ability for Fighters would be at least one thing they excel at.
Welcome to the wonderful ambiguous world of classic D&D/AD&D.
1) It's your call But.....
2) Rangers and Paladin are specifically noted as fighter sub-classes. Moreso in Unearthed Arcana the table is repeated but with Cavaliers and Barbarians added. The table on page 22 now reads
QuoteNotes: These figures do not apply to melee combat with monsters of less than one hit die (d8) and non-exceptional humans and semihumans, i.e. all creatures with less than one eight-sided hit die. All of these creatures enable members of the listed classes and sub-classes to attack once per round for each of his or her levels.
Unearthed Arcana Page 22.
So yes it is highly likely that RAW, Paladins, and Rangers get several attacks equal to their level. However, keep in mind both classes have a lot of roleplaying implications that if not incorporated will make things wonky. The AD&D 1e Ranger is not a woodland warrior but a take on the Dunedain Rangers of LoTR. An organization of warriors associated with elves and other demi-humans and a force for good.
Quote from: blackstone on December 22, 2023, 09:32:52 AM
Interesting take on your rule when applying it to higher HD monsters as well.
Thanks. One reason it works well is that against the toughest OD&D monsters, nothing changes but against more mundane opponents using it makes players with high-level fighter characters feel like they have progressed in power.
This in many ways reflects how things worked out when I ran my setting using GURPS. A high-point GURPS character with a high level of skills could easily take care of multiple opponents (a feint, then a decisive blow) while fighting someone of comparable skill took the same amount of tactics and thought as it did when the campaign first started.
Quote from: blackstone on December 21, 2023, 03:14:44 PM
One of the little known (and forgotten) rules when it came to fighters in AD&D 1st ed is fighters can attack monsters less than 1 HD equal to the level of the fighter.
The fighters specialty is laying waste to creatures that attack on mass: orcs, goblins, kobolds, giant rats, etc.
check under the fighter's attack matrix in the PHB or on the DM Screen. It's there.
20 goblins? No problem for a 5th level Fighter!
Yes, that same rule applies to the fighter in Lion & Dragon.
Quote from: estar on December 22, 2023, 08:51:29 AM
In OD&D it came from an official clarification in The Strategic Review Vol 1. Issue #2, Page 3.
(https://songoftheblade.files.wordpress.com/2016/10/grp8ff3.png)
While the AD&D 1e thing is well known to me, and I've referenced it in this thread, I had no idea about the OD&D piece. It looks like there may be another reference to this in
Chainmail somewhere, just based on the phrasing (it implies we may find something under Hero rules or similar- this looks like it's a clarification of a printed rule somewhere). In any event, excellent find.
Quote from: RPGPundit on December 22, 2023, 04:26:28 PM
Yes, that same rule applies to the fighter in Lion & Dragon.
The Lion and Dragon fighter's ability is different, because it is ranged limited, not attack type limited. The older abilities only allow for melee combat while in Lion and Dragon the fighter can shoot multiple opponents who are greater than 5 but less than 10 feet away. An additional and more important difference is that an AD&D 1e fighter can charge into reach of such monsters and use his ability (I'm pretty sure?), whereas a clause about multiple attacks in Lion and Dragon seems to make that fighter unable to attack multiple times after moving.
Quote from: Venka on December 23, 2023, 02:18:53 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit on December 22, 2023, 04:26:28 PM
Yes, that same rule applies to the fighter in Lion & Dragon.
The Lion and Dragon fighter's ability is different, because it is ranged limited, not attack type limited. The older abilities only allow for melee combat while in Lion and Dragon the fighter can shoot multiple opponents who are greater than 5 but less than 10 feet away. An additional and more important difference is that an AD&D 1e fighter can charge into reach of such monsters and use his ability (I'm pretty sure?), whereas a clause about multiple attacks in Lion and Dragon seems to make that fighter unable to attack multiple times after moving.
Not quite; I think you're conflating the attacks against multiple 1hd opponent mechanic and the extra attacks benefits.
So with the former, a fighter can make a number of attacks equal to his level against a group of 1hd opponents (one attack each), to a limit of the number of opponents within 10' of him. The rule doesn't mention if it's melee or ranged, so it can be both, but the implication is thus that he's either firing at a number of opponents within 10', or moving around in that 10' area striking one after the other in melee.
The extra attacks benefit means that with one type of weapon, a fighter can do 2 (or more, over time) attacks, against any type of opponent, with the number of attacks being against either a single opponent or multiple ones, in melee, or ranged at any distance viable for the ranged weapon; but doing more than a single attack means that he cannot do a movement or any other kind of action other than the multiple attacks.
Quote from: Mishihari on December 19, 2023, 04:26:46 PM
I've done something very similar for the very-non-D&D game I'm writing right now. (Almost done, yay!) One of the key design features is a depletable "fatigue" resource. Normal attacks cost no fatigue but any of the 30 or so melee maneuvers (power attack, furious defense, etc) cost a certain amount. The point is to offer fighters interesting, powerful options, like casters, but limit how often it can be done, also like casters. The other options is 4E's x/day mechanic, which I hate with a passion because it has no reasonable in-game explanation.
Hi, if you don't mind me asking...is the same game you mentioned in other post, the one with animistic magic?
Quote from: Venka on December 23, 2023, 02:18:53 PM
While the AD&D 1e thing is well known to me, and I've referenced it in this thread, I had no idea about the OD&D piece. It looks like there may be another reference to this in Chainmail somewhere, just based on the phrasing (it implies we may find something under Hero rules or similar- this looks like it's a clarification of a printed rule somewhere). In any event, excellent find.
Thanks and as for your question, that would be this
(https://www.batintheattic.com/images/odnd_heroes.jpg)
The Hero fights acts four figures. However, in Chainmail, what this means depends on the equipment the Hero uses, which determines the Hero's troop type. Along with the troop type of their opponent. So if the Hero is outfitted as a Light Footmen then they get just one roll of a d6 if fighting Heavy Horse and a 5 or 6 scores a kill. But if the same Hero was fighting other Light Footmen then they would get to roll 4d6 and each 6 rolled will score a figure kill.
Conversely, if the Hero is outfitted as a Heavy Horseman. They would get 16d6 versus Light Foot and a 5 or 6 on each roll will score a figure kill.
Also, it will take four hits in a single round to kill the hero when attacked by regular troops.
Finally, if fighting monsters or other heroes, they would use the man-to-man tables and the fantasy supplement tables. This means rolling 2d6 >= the target number cross-referenced from a chart.
(https://www.batintheattic.com/images/chainmail_combat_table.jpg)
Quote from: Dagor on January 01, 2024, 06:29:38 PM
Quote from: Mishihari on December 19, 2023, 04:26:46 PM
I've done something very similar for the very-non-D&D game I'm writing right now. (Almost done, yay!) One of the key design features is a depletable "fatigue" resource. Normal attacks cost no fatigue but any of the 30 or so melee maneuvers (power attack, furious defense, etc) cost a certain amount. The point is to offer fighters interesting, powerful options, like casters, but limit how often it can be done, also like casters. The other options is 4E's x/day mechanic, which I hate with a passion because it has no reasonable in-game explanation.
Hi, if you don't mind me asking...is the same game you mentioned in other post, the one with animistic magic?
Yep, that's the one. And I'll just mention that while Spirit Magic is probably the most unusual type in the game, there are also 4 other types as well.
Quote from: Opaopajr on December 21, 2023, 07:32:01 PM
Quantum Encounters in Quantum Edition is not even sophistry, just pathetic wanna-be pedantic idiocy. Most of us nerds got over this childish debate antic by junior high, and for most of us that is decades ago. :) We all go through that power trip phase and then we grow up and seriously engage with conversations and their context.
One day you can too! ;D
3.5 is the only edition and everything I said was correct, retard :)
Quote from: Domina on January 04, 2024, 11:58:42 AM
Quote from: Opaopajr on December 21, 2023, 07:32:01 PM
Quantum Encounters in Quantum Edition is not even sophistry, just pathetic wanna-be pedantic idiocy. Most of us nerds got over this childish debate antic by junior high, and for most of us that is decades ago. :) We all go through that power trip phase and then we grow up and seriously engage with conversations and their context.
One day you can too! ;D
3.5 is the only edition and everything I said was correct, retard :)
;) Don't worry, you'll have deeper thoughts in due time. :) Enjoy your youth!
Quote from: Mishihari on January 03, 2024, 03:04:43 PM
Quote from: Dagor on January 01, 2024, 06:29:38 PM
Quote from: Mishihari on December 19, 2023, 04:26:46 PM
I've done something very similar for the very-non-D&D game I'm writing right now. (Almost done, yay!) One of the key design features is a depletable "fatigue" resource. Normal attacks cost no fatigue but any of the 30 or so melee maneuvers (power attack, furious defense, etc) cost a certain amount. The point is to offer fighters interesting, powerful options, like casters, but limit how often it can be done, also like casters. The other options is 4E's x/day mechanic, which I hate with a passion because it has no reasonable in-game explanation.
Hi, if you don't mind me asking...is the same game you mentioned in other post, the one with animistic magic?
Yep, that's the one. And I'll just mention that while Spirit Magic is probably the most unusual type in the game, there are also 4 other types as well.
Sounds like Runequest to me.
Quote from: Dagor on January 04, 2024, 02:43:53 PM
Quote from: Mishihari on January 03, 2024, 03:04:43 PM
Quote from: Dagor on January 01, 2024, 06:29:38 PM
Quote from: Mishihari on December 19, 2023, 04:26:46 PM
I've done something very similar for the very-non-D&D game I'm writing right now. (Almost done, yay!) One of the key design features is a depletable "fatigue" resource. Normal attacks cost no fatigue but any of the 30 or so melee maneuvers (power attack, furious defense, etc) cost a certain amount. The point is to offer fighters interesting, powerful options, like casters, but limit how often it can be done, also like casters. The other options is 4E's x/day mechanic, which I hate with a passion because it has no reasonable in-game explanation.
Hi, if you don't mind me asking...is the same game you mentioned in other post, the one with animistic magic?
Yep, that's the one. And I'll just mention that while Spirit Magic is probably the most unusual type in the game, there are also 4 other types as well.
Sounds like Runequest to me.
Can't really comment on that. I've neither played nor read Runequest
Quote from: Opaopajr on January 04, 2024, 12:47:58 PM
Quote from: Domina on January 04, 2024, 11:58:42 AM
Quote from: Opaopajr on December 21, 2023, 07:32:01 PM
Quantum Encounters in Quantum Edition is not even sophistry, just pathetic wanna-be pedantic idiocy. Most of us nerds got over this childish debate antic by junior high, and for most of us that is decades ago. :) We all go through that power trip phase and then we grow up and seriously engage with conversations and their context.
One day you can too! ;D
3.5 is the only edition and everything I said was correct, retard :)
;) Don't worry, you'll have deeper thoughts in due time. :) Enjoy your youth!
Cope harder :)
he can't he doesn't have the cope harder feat nor the levels in weeb shitstain required to get it.
Oh look, Domina the trolling douche nozzle is back.... ::)
Quote from: Slipshot762 on January 05, 2024, 10:56:36 AM
he can't he doesn't have the cope harder feat nor the levels in weeb shitstain required to get it.
Lmao stay furious
i didn't take the required "dip" into the furious weebshit tard homo class so i can't. My anus is now sad.
ETA:
NANI?!?!?!?
Quote from: Slipshot762 on January 05, 2024, 10:56:36 AM
he can't he doesn't have the cope harder feat nor the levels in weeb shitstain required to get it.
Quote from: Slipshot762 on January 05, 2024, 06:46:33 PM
i didn't take the required "dip" into the furious weebshit tard homo class so i can't. My anus is now sad.
ETA:
NANI?!?!?!?
;D OK, I admit it, I laughed. 8) Forum antibodies have a sharp elbow sense of humor. Thanks. ;)
That said, Domina does sound of that awkward coming of age where sounding right and pissing on shoes to claim space is so, so important. :) I can't really get mad beyond the pity. It's almost adorable in its "wannabe, never was" energy. ;D
But eventually they'll age out of it and look back with shame. And... I don't see the point going that hard on youthful indiscretions, especially such tame ones. In fact my leniency might be the crueller choice because they might linger in this maladjusted stage longer than necessary. But it's so darn cringe-cute! ;D
Quote from: Opaopajr on January 07, 2024, 06:51:58 PM
Quote from: Slipshot762 on January 05, 2024, 10:56:36 AM
he can't he doesn't have the cope harder feat nor the levels in weeb shitstain required to get it.
Quote from: Slipshot762 on January 05, 2024, 06:46:33 PM
i didn't take the required "dip" into the furious weebshit tard homo class so i can't. My anus is now sad.
ETA:
NANI?!?!?!?
;D OK, I admit it, I laughed. 8) Forum antibodies have a sharp elbow sense of humor. Thanks. ;)
That said, Domina does sound of that awkward coming of age where sounding right and pissing on shoes to claim space is so, so important. :) I can't really get mad beyond the pity. It's almost adorable in its "wannabe, never was" energy. ;D
But eventually they'll age out of it and look back with shame. And... I don't see the point going that hard on youthful indiscretions, especially such tame ones. In fact my leniency might be the crueller choice because they might linger in this maladjusted stage longer than necessary. But it's so darn cringe-cute! ;D
Greetings!
My friend, you are far more tolerant, patient, and gracious than I, I must confess. Such qualities in you, I have always admired and appreciated, Opaopajr.
I imagine that I have never possessed such qualities in great measure, for such is not my temperament. ;D
Cheers, my friend!
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: Opaopajr on January 07, 2024, 06:51:58 PM
Quote from: Slipshot762 on January 05, 2024, 10:56:36 AM
he can't he doesn't have the cope harder feat nor the levels in weeb shitstain required to get it.
Quote from: Slipshot762 on January 05, 2024, 06:46:33 PM
i didn't take the required "dip" into the furious weebshit tard homo class so i can't. My anus is now sad.
ETA:
NANI?!?!?!?
;D OK, I admit it, I laughed. 8) Forum antibodies have a sharp elbow sense of humor. Thanks. ;)
That said, Domina does sound of that awkward coming of age where sounding right and pissing on shoes to claim space is so, so important. :) I can't really get mad beyond the pity. It's almost adorable in its "wannabe, never was" energy. ;D
But eventually they'll age out of it and look back with shame. And... I don't see the point going that hard on youthful indiscretions, especially such tame ones. In fact my leniency might be the crueller choice because they might linger in this maladjusted stage longer than necessary. But it's so darn cringe-cute! ;D
Still no arguments huh? kek
I have an "argument" for you cockholster;
It is that you are a M:tG kiddie who has never actually played D&D in your life; you have at best bastardized such by making "builds" instead of characters and trying so hard to be seen as competent or capable yet coming off only as both loud and weak, the first an indicator of the second, and that not even the other furries in your discord can tolerate you, they talk sorely about you when they think you are offline...
and no, sharing pics of your shaved legs in fishnets in discord did not in fact win you any accolades, but they WILL be used to blackmail you into sharing pics of that hairy butthole as well...and not even that, once done, will bring you any closer to being seen as anything other than an edgy angsty weebshit that barks loudly like a little mexican teacup doggy "yap! yap yap yap! yap!"...
kek!
You got some sort of intelligent response, little taco bell doggy, or just more tween-speak cope tinged with a hint of "daddy didn't beat my ass enough"?
Are you going to run to back to discord and tell them the mean old man was cruel to you and that now they must spend a day telling you that you ARE pretty, that your OC donut steel anime magic girl is their bestest and only waifu, and that your my little pony buttplug really brings out the brown in your eyes, elstwise you may cut yourself again?
Because nothing you say will convince any of us that such is not 100% exactly what occurs when we are not observing you...kek, a quantum troon with a chip on its shoulder smaller even than the tiny sack it pretends to have.
So now what you caustic abrasive over compensating little waste of meat? You gonna cry, weebtits? You gonna write an angry letter and demand daddy gov force everyone to acknowledge your greatness and validate your "build" as a meta-human half trans, half bitch, all retard unemployed discord graphics artist with a two-level dip into piss infected mutant cum guzzler?
Because I think that's exactly what you will do and see no evidence to suggest otherwise. Now that I've made it clear that normal humans see you as a boil on the ass of humanity you have some options; one is to learn and grow and better yourself, the other is to keep acting like a teenage girl until some bearded perv lures you into the back of the van with promises of viewing his rare 1st edition printing of squirtle...
Whichever you choose, know that I will say with full confidence that it was a pleasure to shit on your feeble fragile ego, and I look forward to the next opportunity to do so, which, I'm sure, you will be completely unable to deny me as your little weeb-puss oozes and aches with a need to be abused I gather....KEK!
NANI!?!?!?
8) It's too perfect not to refer to Monty Python:
"I Came Here for an Argument." "Oh, no, This is Abuse." ;D
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=5BRc5zV4YKU&pp=ygUbbW9udHkgcHl0aG9uIHRoaXMgaXMgYWJ1c2Ug (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=5BRc5zV4YKU&pp=ygUbbW9udHkgcHl0aG9uIHRoaXMgaXMgYWJ1c2Ug)
Thanks Slipshot762, this magical moment couldn't have happened without you. ;) Maybe their personal growth will arise from contact of such forum antibodies. :D Either way, you amused me again!
Anyway, topic tax, I find using in-class assumed shared understanding a useful boost to Fighters as well. :) This way hirelings of a particular class demographic increase power projection. For example, a bunch of hired men-at-arms would be aware of common battle tactics and formations at a command. They'd typically sort themselves out to match the command formation as per the field melee context as best they could, though you could add an attribute roll for complexities.
Similarly you could do the same for Thieves with footpads or burglars, naming off who does what roles and the like during a heist, mugging, con job, or burglary. And we can imagine so on and so forth with hireling acolytes & medics under a Cleric, or hireling apprentices under a Wizard. This way it turns money & loyalty into action economy and power projection, just like real life. :D And they often end up being beloved NPCs that often carry the torch when PCs are retired.
(https://c.tenor.com/ubboSatrrVEAAAAC/tenor.gif)
Quote from: Klava on January 12, 2024, 06:47:39 AM
(https://c.tenor.com/ubboSatrrVEAAAAC/tenor.gif)
Greetings!
*Laughing* Hey there, Klava! Good to see you!
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: Opaopajr on January 12, 2024, 06:35:55 AM
8) It's too perfect not to refer to Monty Python:
"I Came Here for an Argument." "Oh, no, This is Abuse." ;D
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=5BRc5zV4YKU&pp=ygUbbW9udHkgcHl0aG9uIHRoaXMgaXMgYWJ1c2Ug (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=5BRc5zV4YKU&pp=ygUbbW9udHkgcHl0aG9uIHRoaXMgaXMgYWJ1c2Ug)
Thanks Slipshot762, this magical moment couldn't have happened without you. ;) Maybe their personal growth will arise from contact of such forum antibodies. :D Either way, you amused me again!
Anyway, topic tax, I find using in-class assumed shared understanding a useful boost to Fighters as well. :) This way hirelings of a particular class demographic increase power projection. For example, a bunch of hired men-at-arms would be aware of common battle tactics and formations at a command. They'd typically sort themselves out to match the command formation as per the field melee context as best they could, though you could add an attribute roll for complexities.
Similarly you could do the same for Thieves with footpads or burglars, naming off who does what roles and the like during a heist, mugging, con job, or burglary. And we can imagine so on and so forth with hireling acolytes & medics under a Cleric, or hireling apprentices under a Wizard. This way it turns money & loyalty into action economy and power projection, just like real life. :D And they often end up being beloved NPCs that often carry the torch when PCs are retired.
Greetings!
Opaopajr! *Laughing* My gawd, Slipshot just opened a righteous can of whoop ass! That was so epic!
I love it!
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
I do apologize for being a dick to all parties. You know I thought 3e was a great opportunity early on, and could be the start of something good...until I encountered these players who had not played D&D before 3e and who in my sample size seem to come from magic the gathering and bringing that adjudicational perspective with them. They did not seem to get that it's both a written and unwritten foundational D&D rule that the DM is likely not going to allow you to cheese, glitch, or broker an absurd outcome by a pedantic computer logic reading and application of the rules. And so w/o that understanding you are not then, to my eye, playing D&D.
As to the shadows in the whiteboard scenario (reminds me of the kid using a "RAW" ahem* approach and a 2nd level spell to kill/defeat the tarrasque via summoning an allip) being "tarded'" goes both ways; they do not have tremorsense nor bodies so hiding in the floor makes them blind and deaf and if you really want to be pedantic they are always blind/deaf anyway as they lack bodies to feel vibration or ears to do the same or eyes to see. So their ugly little heads would have to be sticking up thus granting players rolls to spot them. Don't even let the party gnome know because he will cobble up some interpretation of various meta-magic feats that ultimately let him run around with a bubble of repulse undead negating this contrived whiteboard gotcha BS anyway...it's like some people have never sat at a table and played with other humans before or something.
ETA: Fighter Options (Sorta)
One thing I found when going primarily to D6 system was that D&D in hindsight could solve many of its complaints by adopting the turn resolution order of D6. For example in D6 no one will generally do their second action before everyone does their first, whereas in 3e you get your turn on your initiative...this gives radically different outcomes. In 3e the wizards can move and cast a spell, in D6 the wizard can do either but only one before everyone else gets to do something, such as hurl daggers or torches at the wizard.
Quote from: Slipshot762 on January 12, 2024, 05:18:24 AM
I have an "argument" for you cockholster;
It is that you are a M:tG kiddie who has never actually played D&D in your life; you have at best bastardized such by making "builds" instead of characters and trying so hard to be seen as competent or capable yet coming off only as both loud and weak, the first an indicator of the second, and that not even the other furries in your discord can tolerate you, they talk sorely about you when they think you are offline...
and no, sharing pics of your shaved legs in fishnets in discord did not in fact win you any accolades, but they WILL be used to blackmail you into sharing pics of that hairy butthole as well...and not even that, once done, will bring you any closer to being seen as anything other than an edgy angsty weebshit that barks loudly like a little mexican teacup doggy "yap! yap yap yap! yap!"...
kek!
You got some sort of intelligent response, little taco bell doggy, or just more tween-speak cope tinged with a hint of "daddy didn't beat my ass enough"?
Are you going to run to back to discord and tell them the mean old man was cruel to you and that now they must spend a day telling you that you ARE pretty, that your OC donut steel anime magic girl is their bestest and only waifu, and that your my little pony buttplug really brings out the brown in your eyes, elstwise you may cut yourself again?
Because nothing you say will convince any of us that such is not 100% exactly what occurs when we are not observing you...kek, a quantum troon with a chip on its shoulder smaller even than the tiny sack it pretends to have.
So now what you caustic abrasive over compensating little waste of meat? You gonna cry, weebtits? You gonna write an angry letter and demand daddy gov force everyone to acknowledge your greatness and validate your "build" as a meta-human half trans, half bitch, all retard unemployed discord graphics artist with a two-level dip into piss infected mutant cum guzzler?
Because I think that's exactly what you will do and see no evidence to suggest otherwise. Now that I've made it clear that normal humans see you as a boil on the ass of humanity you have some options; one is to learn and grow and better yourself, the other is to keep acting like a teenage girl until some bearded perv lures you into the back of the van with promises of viewing his rare 1st edition printing of squirtle...
Whichever you choose, know that I will say with full confidence that it was a pleasure to shit on your feeble fragile ego, and I look forward to the next opportunity to do so, which, I'm sure, you will be completely unable to deny me as your little weeb-puss oozes and aches with a need to be abused I gather....KEK!
NANI!?!?!?
(https://i.imgur.com/OGsfkho.gif)
Quote from: Slipshot762 on January 12, 2024, 05:18:24 AM
I have an "argument" for you cockholster;
It is that you are a M:tG kiddie who has never actually played D&D in your life; you have at best bastardized such by making "builds" instead of characters and trying so hard to be seen as competent or capable yet coming off only as both loud and weak, the first an indicator of the second, and that not even the other furries in your discord can tolerate you, they talk sorely about you when they think you are offline...
and no, sharing pics of your shaved legs in fishnets in discord did not in fact win you any accolades, but they WILL be used to blackmail you into sharing pics of that hairy butthole as well...and not even that, once done, will bring you any closer to being seen as anything other than an edgy angsty weebshit that barks loudly like a little mexican teacup doggy "yap! yap yap yap! yap!"...
kek!
You got some sort of intelligent response, little taco bell doggy, or just more tween-speak cope tinged with a hint of "daddy didn't beat my ass enough"?
Are you going to run to back to discord and tell them the mean old man was cruel to you and that now they must spend a day telling you that you ARE pretty, that your OC donut steel anime magic girl is their bestest and only waifu, and that your my little pony buttplug really brings out the brown in your eyes, elstwise you may cut yourself again?
Because nothing you say will convince any of us that such is not 100% exactly what occurs when we are not observing you...kek, a quantum troon with a chip on its shoulder smaller even than the tiny sack it pretends to have.
So now what you caustic abrasive over compensating little waste of meat? You gonna cry, weebtits? You gonna write an angry letter and demand daddy gov force everyone to acknowledge your greatness and validate your "build" as a meta-human half trans, half bitch, all retard unemployed discord graphics artist with a two-level dip into piss infected mutant cum guzzler?
Because I think that's exactly what you will do and see no evidence to suggest otherwise. Now that I've made it clear that normal humans see you as a boil on the ass of humanity you have some options; one is to learn and grow and better yourself, the other is to keep acting like a teenage girl until some bearded perv lures you into the back of the van with promises of viewing his rare 1st edition printing of squirtle...
Whichever you choose, know that I will say with full confidence that it was a pleasure to shit on your feeble fragile ego, and I look forward to the next opportunity to do so, which, I'm sure, you will be completely unable to deny me as your little weeb-puss oozes and aches with a need to be abused I gather....KEK!
NANI!?!?!?
Greetings!
*Laughing* Damn, Slipshot762. Righteous, man. Absolutely righteous!
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: Slipshot762 on January 12, 2024, 05:18:24 AM
I have an "argument" for you cockholster;
It is that you are a M:tG kiddie who has never actually played D&D in your life; you have at best bastardized such by making "builds" instead of characters and trying so hard to be seen as competent or capable yet coming off only as both loud and weak, the first an indicator of the second, and that not even the other furries in your discord can tolerate you, they talk sorely about you when they think you are offline...
and no, sharing pics of your shaved legs in fishnets in discord did not in fact win you any accolades, but they WILL be used to blackmail you into sharing pics of that hairy butthole as well...and not even that, once done, will bring you any closer to being seen as anything other than an edgy angsty weebshit that barks loudly like a little mexican teacup doggy "yap! yap yap yap! yap!"...
kek!
You got some sort of intelligent response, little taco bell doggy, or just more tween-speak cope tinged with a hint of "daddy didn't beat my ass enough"?
Are you going to run to back to discord and tell them the mean old man was cruel to you and that now they must spend a day telling you that you ARE pretty, that your OC donut steel anime magic girl is their bestest and only waifu, and that your my little pony buttplug really brings out the brown in your eyes, elstwise you may cut yourself again?
Because nothing you say will convince any of us that such is not 100% exactly what occurs when we are not observing you...kek, a quantum troon with a chip on its shoulder smaller even than the tiny sack it pretends to have.
So now what you caustic abrasive over compensating little waste of meat? You gonna cry, weebtits? You gonna write an angry letter and demand daddy gov force everyone to acknowledge your greatness and validate your "build" as a meta-human half trans, half bitch, all retard unemployed discord graphics artist with a two-level dip into piss infected mutant cum guzzler?
Because I think that's exactly what you will do and see no evidence to suggest otherwise. Now that I've made it clear that normal humans see you as a boil on the ass of humanity you have some options; one is to learn and grow and better yourself, the other is to keep acting like a teenage girl until some bearded perv lures you into the back of the van with promises of viewing his rare 1st edition printing of squirtle...
Whichever you choose, know that I will say with full confidence that it was a pleasure to shit on your feeble fragile ego, and I look forward to the next opportunity to do so, which, I'm sure, you will be completely unable to deny me as your little weeb-puss oozes and aches with a need to be abused I gather....KEK!
NANI!?!?!?
Didn't read lmao I'm based you're cringe
You're the one channeling tinkerbell, kid...
::)
thanks for the laughs, spaz ;)
Quote from: Domina on January 12, 2024, 10:56:05 AM
Quote from: Slipshot762 on January 12, 2024, 05:18:24 AM
I have an "argument" for you cockholster;
It is that you are a M:tG kiddie who has never actually played D&D in your life; you have at best bastardized such by making "builds" instead of characters and trying so hard to be seen as competent or capable yet coming off only as both loud and weak, the first an indicator of the second, and that not even the other furries in your discord can tolerate you, they talk sorely about you when they think you are offline...
and no, sharing pics of your shaved legs in fishnets in discord did not in fact win you any accolades, but they WILL be used to blackmail you into sharing pics of that hairy butthole as well...and not even that, once done, will bring you any closer to being seen as anything other than an edgy angsty weebshit that barks loudly like a little mexican teacup doggy "yap! yap yap yap! yap!"...
kek!
You got some sort of intelligent response, little taco bell doggy, or just more tween-speak cope tinged with a hint of "daddy didn't beat my ass enough"?
Are you going to run to back to discord and tell them the mean old man was cruel to you and that now they must spend a day telling you that you ARE pretty, that your OC donut steel anime magic girl is their bestest and only waifu, and that your my little pony buttplug really brings out the brown in your eyes, elstwise you may cut yourself again?
Because nothing you say will convince any of us that such is not 100% exactly what occurs when we are not observing you...kek, a quantum troon with a chip on its shoulder smaller even than the tiny sack it pretends to have.
So now what you caustic abrasive over compensating little waste of meat? You gonna cry, weebtits? You gonna write an angry letter and demand daddy gov force everyone to acknowledge your greatness and validate your "build" as a meta-human half trans, half bitch, all retard unemployed discord graphics artist with a two-level dip into piss infected mutant cum guzzler?
Because I think that's exactly what you will do and see no evidence to suggest otherwise. Now that I've made it clear that normal humans see you as a boil on the ass of humanity you have some options; one is to learn and grow and better yourself, the other is to keep acting like a teenage girl until some bearded perv lures you into the back of the van with promises of viewing his rare 1st edition printing of squirtle...
Whichever you choose, know that I will say with full confidence that it was a pleasure to shit on your feeble fragile ego, and I look forward to the next opportunity to do so, which, I'm sure, you will be completely unable to deny me as your little weeb-puss oozes and aches with a need to be abused I gather....KEK!
NANI!?!?!?
Didn't read lmao I'm based you're cringe
No, not based, just ADD. Like most of your spastic generation of psychos. Go cry to the therapist that feeds into your psychosis of being a trans-gendered man and still likes women.
lol spaz is still seething