Quote from: Domina on December 21, 2023, 04:03:13 PM
Shadow   Greater Shadow
Size/Type:   Medium Undead (Incorporeal)   Medium Undead (Incorporeal)

Please, continue embarrassing yourself.

Shadow Medium Undead Chaotic Evil
Amorphous
Strength Drain
Shadow Stealth
Sunlight Weakness

I am not the one being embarrassed here.

Quote from: estar on December 21, 2023, 04:06:24 PM

Quote from: Domina on December 21, 2023, 04:03:13 PM
Shadow   Greater Shadow
Size/Type:   Medium Undead (Incorporeal)   Medium Undead (Incorporeal)

Please, continue embarrassing yourself.

Shadow Medium Undead Chaotic Evil
Amorphous
Strength Drain
Shadow Stealth
Sunlight Weakness

I am not the one being embarrassed here.

Aww, I'm sorry, is this edition too HARD for you? The great master of tactics can't adapt?

Quote from: Domina on December 21, 2023, 03:54:37 PM
Their ability to hide and attack is completely independent of the light level, actually. Their miss chance doesn't depend on concealment.

Ok, so can you pick a version please? 

In AD&D 1e, shadows are 90% undetectable unless bright light is cast (continual light being the example). They have low intelligence and as such are unlikely to employ clever tactics. Does sunlight mess with them? Absolutely!  It says "bright light is cast", but it doesn't say from a spell.  And continual light is most definitely dimmer than daylight ("nearly as illuminating as full daylight" is in the spell description).  So yea, these shadows are detectable in daylight.  These monsters take a +1 weapon to hit them at all, so, I mean, the team needs to make that happen.

In AD&D 2e, it explicitly states that "in bright light they can be clearly seen".  This was obviously always the intention, but now you don't have to look up continual light to figure it out.

In 3.X, we have the following text: A shadow gains a +4 racial bonus on Hide checks in areas of shadowy illumination. In brightly lit areas, it takes a -4 penalty on Hide checks. 
So this doesn't instantly reveal them, but going from +12 hide down to +4 hide is an incredibly huge swing.  They won't be hiding in bright light or day light very easily.  Again Int 6- no cunning plans for these guys.  The "+1 or better to hit" requirement is at this point inherited from the incorporeal tag, which makes them immune to nonmagical weapons and only 50% likely to be hit by a magical weapon BUT this is third edition, you can just pay some wizard a well defined amount of gold to add ghost touch to a weapon.  Since that needs to be an a +1 weapon and costs a +1 enchantment to work, this is 8000 gold, but hey, someone on your team needs that because not just shadows are incorporeal.  If you looted a +1 weapon somewhere, it's only an additional 6000 gold.

In 4e the shadow can take a stealth check to hide when it has concealment instead of total concealment.  These terms are, of course, defined in the analog video game of 4th edition.  These shadows are Int 12 for some reason, and also have powers to merge with your shadow until you win a 55% save check every round.

In 5e they again have Int 6, so back to shortbus tatics, and there's no 50% miss rate for them any more.  They have inherited a crossbreed of the 3rd and 4th power for hiding in shadows:  Shadow Stealth. While in dim light or darkness, the shadow can take the Hide action as a bonus action. Its stealth bonus is also improved to +6. (their stealth bonus is normally +4).
They also get this little blurb: Sunlight Weakness. While in sunlight, the shadow has disadvantage on attack rolls, ability checks, and saving throws.  Certain higher level spells "are sunlight" in 5e (sunbeam at 6th, sunburst at 8th, and an optional spell in Xanathar's at 5th).

So sunlight in all versions makes them either unable to hide or gives them fits doing it, and in 5e it wrecks them totally.  In most versions even mid level light spells turn off their stealth bonus.

Quote from: Venka on December 21, 2023, 04:18:21 PM

Quote from: Domina on December 21, 2023, 03:54:37 PM
Their ability to hide and attack is completely independent of the light level, actually. Their miss chance doesn't depend on concealment.

Ok, so can you pick a version please? 

In AD&D 1e, shadows are 90% undetectable unless bright light is cast (continual light being the example). They have low intelligence and as such are unlikely to employ clever tactics. Does sunlight mess with them? Absolutely!  It says "bright light is cast", but it doesn't say from a spell.  And continual light is most definitely dimmer than daylight ("nearly as illuminating as full daylight" is in the spell description).  So yea, these shadows are detectable in daylight.  These monsters take a +1 weapon to hit them at all, so, I mean, the team needs to make that happen.

In AD&D 2e, it explicitly states that "in bright light they can be clearly seen".  This was obviously always the intention, but now you don't have to look up continual light to figure it out.

In 3.X, we have the following text: A shadow gains a +4 racial bonus on Hide checks in areas of shadowy illumination. In brightly lit areas, it takes a -4 penalty on Hide checks. 
So this doesn't instantly reveal them, but going from +12 hide down to +4 hide is an incredibly huge swing.  They won't be hiding in bright light or day light very easily.  Again Int 6- no cunning plans for these guys.  The "+1 or better to hit" requirement is at this point inherited from the incorporeal tag, which makes them immune to nonmagical weapons and only 50% likely to be hit by a magical weapon BUT this is third edition, you can just pay some wizard a well defined amount of gold to add ghost touch to a weapon.  Since that needs to be an a +1 weapon and costs a +1 enchantment to work, this is 8000 gold, but hey, someone on your team needs that because not just shadows are incorporeal.  If you looted a +1 weapon somewhere, it's only an additional 6000 gold.

In 4e the shadow can take a stealth check to hide when it has concealment instead of total concealment.  These terms are, of course, defined in the analog video game of 4th edition.  These shadows are Int 12 for some reason, and also have powers to merge with your shadow until you win a 55% save check every round.

In 5e they again have Int 6, so back to shortbus tatics, and there's no 50% miss rate for them any more.  They have inherited a crossbreed of the 3rd and 4th power for hiding in shadows:  Shadow Stealth. While in dim light or darkness, the shadow can take the Hide action as a bonus action. Its stealth bonus is also improved to +6. (their stealth bonus is normally +4).
They also get this little blurb: Sunlight Weakness. While in sunlight, the shadow has disadvantage on attack rolls, ability checks, and saving throws.  Certain higher level spells "are sunlight" in 5e (sunbeam at 6th, sunburst at 8th, and an optional spell in Xanathar's at 5th).

So sunlight in all versions makes them either unable to hide or gives them fits doing it, and in 5e it wrecks them totally.  In most versions even mid level light spells turn off their stealth bonus, and in 5e high level sun spells just wreck them totally.

They don't need to hide. You're not threatening enough.

Quote from: Domina on December 21, 2023, 04:13:41 PM
Aww, I'm sorry, is this edition too HARD for you? The great master of tactics can't adapt?

Edition? OK, I hire four priests and add them to the expedition.  Between the four of them, they have the following odds.

0 to 6.25% No Shadows are banished
6.25 to 31.25% 2d6 Shadows banished
31.25% to 68.75% 4d6 shadows banished
68.75% to 93.75% 6d6 shadows banished.
93.75% to 100.00% 8d6 shadows banished.

They can do this every round.

"One or more extraplanar creatures, no two of which can be more than 30 ft. apart"

Shadows aren't extraplanar, nice try though.

Quote from: Domina on December 21, 2023, 04:19:02 PM
They don't need to hide. You're not threatening enough.

You'll find I'm not amenable to goalpost shifting.  If you're going to discuss specifics, you need to set a framework.  Some of your hypotheticals have already involved cases where the shadows hide, and you've said things like "Also, daylight doesn't do anything to shadows. Incredible tactical reasoning and game knowledge.", and "Their ability to hide and attack is completely independent of the light level, actually.", both of which are wrong in every version.

Now their ability to attack is only nerfed in 5e, but that's not a great point when you've not pinned down a specific shadow.  You appear to betalking about Dungeons and Dragons 3.5 and no other thing.  Is that the case?

Quote from: Venka on December 21, 2023, 04:25:32 PM

Quote from: Domina on December 21, 2023, 04:19:02 PM
They don't need to hide. You're not threatening enough.

You'll find I'm not amenable to goalpost shifting.  If you're going to discuss specifics, you need to set a framework.  Some of your hypotheticals have already involved cases where the shadows hide, and you've said things like "Also, daylight doesn't do anything to shadows. Incredible tactical reasoning and game knowledge.", and "Their ability to hide and attack is completely independent of the light level, actually.", both of which are wrong in every version.

Now their ability to attack is only nerfed in 5e, but that's not a great point when you've not pinned down a specific shadow.  You appear to betalking about Dungeons and Dragons 3.5 and no other thing.  Is that the case?

I don't need to do any such thing. You don't have the authority to demand anything of me. I will provide whatever information suits my whim, and you will continue to re-roll characters until such time as my sadism is satisfied.

A shadow has the same attack bonus in full light and in darkness.
A shadow has 50% miss chance in full light and in darkness.

Quote from: Domina on December 21, 2023, 04:28:46 PM
I don't need to do any such thing.

Lol you sure fucking do.  "I have a pile of houserules that means that fighters are underpowered and all tactics are full retard."

This sounds like a conversation of interest to your table and absolutely no one else.  Frankly, you are trolling an otherwise good thread with a pile of things that aren't simultaneously true in any actual version of D&D.  If your mishmash complex version number D̶̨̉ṳ̵͗n̴͚̋J̷̞̒u̶̧̓n̸̡̐s̸̝̊ ̸͑ͅ ̷̗͗ &  ̸̫̋Ḑ̴̿r̸͙̍a̷̟͂g̸͚͑ŵ̴̥y̴̜͌n̷̹͒s̸̝͝s 3+2i has an issue, well, try posting in whatever dimension knows what the hell you are talking about.

Quote from: Venka on December 21, 2023, 04:37:51 PM

Quote from: Domina on December 21, 2023, 04:28:46 PM
I don't need to do any such thing.

Lol you sure fucking do.  "I have a pile of houserules that means that fighters are underpowered and all tactics are full retard."

This sounds like a conversation of interest to your table and absolutely no one else.  Frankly, you are trolling an otherwise good thread with a pile of things that aren't simultaneously true in any actual version of D&D.  If your mishmash complex version number D̶̨̉ṳ̵͗n̴͚̋J̷̞̒u̶̧̓n̸̡̐s̸̝̊ ̸͑ͅ ̷̗͗ &  ̸̫̋Ḑ̴̿r̸͙̍a̷̟͂g̸͚͑ŵ̴̥y̴̜͌n̷̹͒s̸̝͝s 3+2i has an issue, well, try posting in whatever dimension knows what the hell you are talking about.

Cope and mald lol

Quote from: Domina on December 21, 2023, 04:39:39 PM\
Cope and mald lol

"Cope" doesn't apply, because that would mean that there was some real thing that I was trying to mitigate.  There isn't.
"Mald" kinda does because I foolishly took you as a useful contributor to the thread.  I'll not make that mistake again.

Quote from: Venka on December 21, 2023, 04:50:18 PM

Quote from: Domina on December 21, 2023, 04:39:39 PM\
Cope and mald lol

"Cope" doesn't apply, because that would mean that there was some real thing that I was trying to mitigate.  There isn't.
"Mald" kinda does because I foolishly took you as a useful contributor to the thread.  I'll not make that mistake again.

Yep, you're coping and malding

Quote from: Domina on December 21, 2023, 04:51:10 PM

Quote from: Venka on December 21, 2023, 04:50:18 PM

Quote from: Domina on December 21, 2023, 04:39:39 PM\
Cope and mald lol

"Cope" doesn't apply, because that would mean that there was some real thing that I was trying to mitigate.  There isn't.
"Mald" kinda does because I foolishly took you as a useful contributor to the thread.  I'll not make that mistake again.

Yep, you're coping and malding

and you're trolling by being an utter douche nozzle.

Have a day, fuck face.

Quantum Encounters in Quantum Edition is not even sophistry, just pathetic wanna-be pedantic idiocy. Most of us nerds got over this childish debate antic by junior high, and for most of us that is decades ago.  We all go through that power trip phase and then we grow up and seriously engage with conversations and their context.

One day you can too! 

Are there any editions where opportunity attacks aren't a thing fighters can do on average better than other folks? I do feel like a lot of 3.5 and 5e formations and tactics seem to rely pretty heavily on those. By contrast, in games like OSRIC you can actually meaningfully engage an opponent to prevent them from reaching your casters. Have things moved away from the frontline being able to as effectively halt enemy movement without relying on opportunity attacks or discouragement through beatings? Might be part of why back in the day fighters were allegedly more respected...