Quote from: KindaMeh on December 21, 2023, 03:05:25 PM
I think many of my points still apply. Though this may be a kobayashi maru either designed by the dungeon master or triggered by player stupidity or prior action. Maybe with a dash of bad luck. Also... It's not so much tactical genius as the fact that spacing tactics will still apply in most combat scenarios where victory or loss is uncertain. Like, I'm not the best tactician, but when you talked about the scenario possibilities came to mind where formation might matter if victory or retreat is not already nonviable. *shrugs*

It's a cool scenario, but I don't think it totally negates spacing and positioning/formations as viable to the extent folks might want to use them, as described.

Ok cool. So what, exactly, would you do? Be specific.

Quote from: Domina on December 21, 2023, 02:58:20 PM

Quote from: KindaMeh on December 21, 2023, 02:55:35 PM
20 shadows, so I assume a larger number of players or higher level?

No. If you go to a place where there are twenty shadows hanging out, you encounter twenty shadows. Doesn't matter if you're a level zero farmer or an army of gods.

Come on, where's your tactical genius? Surely it doesn't depend on your opponents being polite?

There is this tactic when hopelessly outclassed called retreat. Most modern day players never use it and instead just fight until a TPK happens. If the party is of a level that makes victory impossible, leave the area completely and seek your fortune elsewhere.

One of the little known (and forgotten) rules when it came to fighters in AD&D 1st ed is fighters can attack monsters less than 1 HD equal to the level of the fighter.

The fighters specialty is laying waste to creatures that attack on mass: orcs, goblins, kobolds, giant rats, etc.

check under the fighter's attack matrix in the PHB or on the DM Screen. It's there.

20 goblins? No problem for a 5th level Fighter!

Great idea. Unfortunately, "Fly 40 ft"

Good luck!

Quote from: blackstone on December 21, 2023, 03:14:44 PM
One of the little known (and forgotten) rules when it came to fighters in AD&D 1st ed is fighters can attack monsters less than 1 HD equal to the level of the fighter.

The fighters specialty is laying waste to creatures that attack on mass: orcs, goblins, kobolds, giant rats, etc.

check under the fighter's attack matrix in the PHB or on the DM Screen. It's there.

20 goblins? No problem for a 5th level Fighter!

20 shadows*

Quote from: Domina on December 21, 2023, 03:15:50 PM

Quote from: blackstone on December 21, 2023, 03:14:44 PM
One of the little known (and forgotten) rules when it came to fighters in AD&D 1st ed is fighters can attack monsters less than 1 HD equal to the level of the fighter.

The fighters specialty is laying waste to creatures that attack on mass: orcs, goblins, kobolds, giant rats, etc.

check under the fighter's attack matrix in the PHB or on the DM Screen. It's there.

20 goblins? No problem for a 5th level Fighter!

20 shadows*

if they're less than 1 HD, sure.

Quote from: blackstone on December 21, 2023, 03:17:54 PM

Quote from: Domina on December 21, 2023, 03:15:50 PM

Quote from: blackstone on December 21, 2023, 03:14:44 PM
One of the little known (and forgotten) rules when it came to fighters in AD&D 1st ed is fighters can attack monsters less than 1 HD equal to the level of the fighter.

The fighters specialty is laying waste to creatures that attack on mass: orcs, goblins, kobolds, giant rats, etc.

check under the fighter's attack matrix in the PHB or on the DM Screen. It's there.

20 goblins? No problem for a 5th level Fighter!

20 shadows*

if they're less than 1 HD, sure.

Completely immune to all non magical attacks, and automatic 50% miss chance against almost all attacks.

Quote from: Domina on December 21, 2023, 02:48:20 PM
Never encountered anything with an at will teleport?

Oh certainly. Formations are never water tight, but having a good set up helps negate stuff like that. So those guys with pole arms I mentioned could carry short swords, and the wizard could have a spell prepared in case of a FUBAR.  Then they can engage or flee as needed. If I've learned anything, it's to prepare for the worst. In this case it means preparing for a break in formation or plan.

How are you going to flee from something with at will teleport that doesn't need to rest?

Quote from: Domina on December 21, 2023, 03:19:09 PM

Quote from: blackstone on December 21, 2023, 03:17:54 PM

Quote from: Domina on December 21, 2023, 03:15:50 PM

Quote from: blackstone on December 21, 2023, 03:14:44 PM
One of the little known (and forgotten) rules when it came to fighters in AD&D 1st ed is fighters can attack monsters less than 1 HD equal to the level of the fighter.

The fighters specialty is laying waste to creatures that attack on mass: orcs, goblins, kobolds, giant rats, etc.

check under the fighter's attack matrix in the PHB or on the DM Screen. It's there.

20 goblins? No problem for a 5th level Fighter!

20 shadows*

if they're less than 1 HD, sure.

Completely immune to all non magical attacks, and automatic 50% miss chance against almost all attacks.

and? My 5th level fighter might have a magical weapon of some sort by this time in his career. what's your point?

My suggestion is to the OP. I could give two shits about your 5e hypothetical situation.

Is the point to show that sometimes formations and spacing aren't enough? Because that I could buy, sometimes things are just a loss. Likewise, I could get that creativity beyond that and expecting the unexpected are potentially key.

I do still think most of what I said applies as giving additional leverage for adventurers levels 3-4 or above. They will probably die, but slightly better. What with feats, fighting styles, and spells available, pretty much everything said could theoretically matter. If you don't pick those in advance or have access to them... Held action reach, cover, spacing for opportunity attacks, and cetera could matter at lower levels too. AOE cantrips are apparently a thing, so friendly fire could still matter, even. Who's closest to the door and what are folks mobility and bottlenecking for a flight from the foes? Will they have to take extra movement to move through friendly spaces? See also retreat spacing and the like. You'll still probably lose, but the process and even the outcomes may look a bit different depending.

The point of what I'm saying here isn't to demean your contribution to the conversation or something. I think you're trying to get at the importance of approaching these games as more than just tactical board war games. Just trying to point out that even in 5e positioning and spacing of allies and enemies and such, including with respect to terrain, can prospectively matter. It'll depend on system, scenario and DM how or to what degree that can really be leveraged, but I wouldn't call it altogether a non-factor. Maybe that's not what you were interested in or talking about, but wanted to bring it up, especially within the context of more martial classes. Where even if your opponents can do whatever, you may yourself be limited to more mundane advantages and skill set.

IDK, am I responding and interpreting roughly on topic or less so?

Quote from: Domina on December 21, 2023, 03:15:24 PM
Great idea. Unfortunately, "Fly 40 ft"

Good luck!

I mean, fighters can fly too.  A magic-user can cast it on them, or there's a bunch of items that can do it.
Generally, if the enemies have a pile of magical powers and movement that's all over the place, the fighters will too, one way or another.  They are in the same high-magic world, why would they be left out?

My point is that they're not going to sit there and politely let you attack them all at the same time. At most three will ever be exposed in a given round against a single target. Let's say they're nice enough to not go back underground until their next turn after attacking. Let's also say that they're whatever HD you want, even though shadows have 3 HD. So each round you get to attack 3 shadows with a 50% chance to miss even if you have an infinite attack bonus. Meanwhile you get to take three touch attacks that drain your strength if they hit (they will, since your armor and most of your bonuses are ignored), for an average of 3.5 x 3 = 10.5 strength damage each round. Let's be extremely generous and say your fighter 5 has 30 strength. Even if you automatically kill 3 shadows every round (you won't), your strength will be reduced to zero in three rounds on average and you will die and return as a shadow.

Quote from: KindaMeh on December 21, 2023, 03:25:14 PM
Is the point to show that sometimes formations and spacing aren't enough?

No, the point is that every d&d player who thinks he's a super smart tactician doesn't know fucking anything. Everything they know about the game is based around DMs who play monsters like they're retarded. They genuinely think Tucker's Kobolds are some kind of crazy impressive 4d gigabrain play.

Quote from: Domina on December 21, 2023, 02:36:30 PM
Okay. Twenty shadows float up through the floor simultaneously and grab the ankles of every party member, forcing multiple saves against strength drain. They retreat back through the floor afterwards. Which formation helps against this?

First off Shadows are not incorporeal creatures from various editions of D&D. But for the sake of the debate we will say the party is fighting on a gravel surface that is porous enough for shadows to squeeze through.

You spread out your group about three to five feet apart keeping eyes on the ground around your compatriot's feet. A trained combatant situational awareness can easily encompass two or three of their allies' feet. The shadow's attack is a melee attack which means its hands will be partially exposed. At which point folks attack.

It is foolproof? No of course not.  Tactics are not foolproof. But everybody working together will mean a superior chance for survival than the alternatives.

What people actually do is smarter. They don't let themselves get into a situation where they have to make a stand where shadows can grab their ankles through the ground. They will invest in reconnaissance followed by a expedition style organization of the group where the approach to each area is tailored to the expected dangers.

For the area with the shadows, the group will make sure they have a caster or item capable of casting daylight along with limiting the avenues of approach by placing or creating impermeable barriers along the exploration route.

If it is something else that is incorporeal then the approach will be tailored accordingly.