Is the concept of 0-level characters unique to Advanced Dungeons & Dragons?
Are there any other class-and-level based games that utilize this concept?
Quote from: Drohem;334406Is the concept of 0-level characters unique to Advanced Dungeons & Dragons?
Are there any other class-and-level based games that utilize this concept?
0-level NPCs. Player Characters never had a 0 level to start from, except that goofy Cavalier stuff in the UA.
Quote from: StormBringer;3344080-level NPCs. Player Characters never had a 0 level to start from, except that goofy Cavalier stuff in the UA.
And module N4 and the
Greyhawk Adventures hardback. UA also discusses 0-level magic-users (in the section discussing cantrips).
Quote from: T. Foster;334409And module N4 and the Greyhawk Adventures hardback. UA also discusses 0-level magic-users (in the section discussing cantrips).
The first two, I don't recall. I thought the cantrips bit was just describing how Magic Users spent their apprenticeship, not how to utilize 0-level MUs.
In Rolemaster starting characters at level zero is one easy way to speed up character creation. You can then let the PCs spend their development points on the fly or in training montages as suits your purposes.
Ack! A dragon! I buy two ranks in Hiding!
There is a module of Goodman Games that is for Level 0 characters in D&D 3.5. Here (http://www.goodman-games.com/5100preview.html). There's also DCC #35A, Halls of the Minotaur, which is included in the Gazetteer of the Known Realms (DCC #35), for Level 0 characters. You basically play NPC-classed characters in both cases. It works great.
SpyCraft has a neat 0-level option.
Quote from: David Johansen;334411In Rolemaster starting characters at level zero is one easy way to speed up character creation. You can then let the PCs spend their development points on the fly or in training montages as suits your purposes.
Ack! A dragon! I buy two ranks in Hiding!
I never did like the fact that all RM/SM and MERP characters started at 1st level with 10,000 experience - what gives?
Well, it gets rid of that uncomfortable thing in the charts where you can be first level with zero experience points. It makes first level something instead of nothing and makes starting from nothing very easy.
Quote from: StormBringer;3344080-level NPCs. Player Characters never had a 0 level to start from, except that goofy Cavalier stuff in the UA.
As T. Foster pointed out, there were rules for player character 0-level characters. I remember playing
N4: Treasure Hunt (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treasure_Hunt_(D%26D_module)) where I played a half-orc who picked up a battle axe and used it to become a fighter at first level. :) Greyhawk Adventures (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greyhawk_Adventures) also had rules for creating 0-level player characters.
Quote from: stu2000;334421SpyCraft has a neat 0-level option.
Is that in both editions?
Quote from: Drohem;334559As T. Foster pointed out, there were rules for player character 0-level characters. I remember playing N4: Treasure Hunt (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treasure_Hunt_%28D%26D_module%29) where I played a half-orc who picked up a battle axe and used it to become a fighter at first level. :) Greyhawk Adventures (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greyhawk_Adventures) also had rules for creating 0-level player characters.
As I mentioned, I am not familiar with those two in particular. Hardly core book, though, wouldn't you say? :)
While not really class-and-level based, the skills in Traveller kind of followed a similar paradigm; the default skill was considered a skill of 0. Normal activities are allowed, but no bootlegger turns or shooting from the hip. Book 1 lists a half dozen skills that would be permissible as default skills, and implies the character would have had some instruction in that area, no matter how brief. Reading the owner's manual for your vacc suit, as an example, would allow routine and safe donning and removal, but if your section of the ship was breached and you had to put it on during a running gunfight while holding your breath, you were well and truly screwed.
Also, it rather stands apart from a normal skill. The rules enforce the idea that a level-0 skill is not the first step to a level-1 skill. I would assume to prevent the players from running around getting all the default skills in an attempt to circumvent normal training or something. At any rate, when the character gets a +1 to a skill, they are at level-1 in the skill, whether they previously had level-0 or not. So, level-0 allows for basic, routine actions, while no levels in a skill prevents even that. I am sure that isn't unique to Traveller, of course, but that is about the only non-AD&D, non-fantasy example I can think of.
Quote from: Drohem;334406Is the concept of 0-level characters unique to Advanced Dungeons & Dragons?
Are there any other class-and-level based games that utilize this concept?
I like the concept of 0-level characters. I cobbled together my own set of rules for 0-level PCs for AD&D, inspired by the appearance of the Cavalier in Dragon (and later Unearthed Arcana, of course). I was drawn to the idea particularly after DMing a campaign in which the PCs acquired a hireling who was a 0-level character. He somehow (maybe "miraculously" is a better word) survived a number of combats, and I felt he deserved to gain xp and go up in level.
I was enthusiastic about the NPC classes introduced in 3e, as they were (supposedly) equivalent to a PC class -1, making a 1st level NPC class effectively 0 level. In practice they are even weaker than that, especially the Commoner. I never got a chance to try it, but I'd like to have run a game where the PCs all started as 1st level Commoners, worked up to 1st level Adepts, Experts, or Warriors (their choice), and finally got to choose an actual PC class commensurate with their NPC class (not multiclassing; simply "morphing" into that class at 1st level). I wouldn't require a lot of xp for any of this, maybe just a session or part of a session; any more than that, and I'd expect a player revolt.
Quote from: Drohem;334406Is the concept of 0-level characters unique to Advanced Dungeons & Dragons?
Are there any other class-and-level based games that utilize this concept?
Which concept? That of AD&D 1E Cavaliers and/or Grayhawk Adventures? Or that of D&D and AD&D 1E/2E of unclassed generic NPC's with skills outside the core classes?
T&T 5.x does have "0-level" civilized kindred, but defines them differently in different places/editions (M!M! defines them as incompetent warriors, whilst 5.0 T&T defines them as adds 0 or less and not a member of any of the types). They get no level-based bonuses. They are "incompetent warriors" but without the double armor value. No rules are provided for them converting to 1st level.
T&T 7.x defines incompetent characters as level 0; that means that of their 4 level stats (of 8 stats total), the best is 9-. (This is because best level stat/10, round down, is the character's level.)
Rolemaster does, as well; all characters have level 0 and level 1 gained, and spend points at level 1 to list what they will get when they make level 2. Level 0 gained skills are "adolescence" and level 1 gained skills are "apprenticeship." MERP, Spacemaster, and Cyberspace all inherit this mode.
Most Retroclones also have the "D&D" understanding of Level 0; IIRC, C&C doesn't explicitly have them, but the math is there and it's easy enough to use them.
D&D 3.X does NOT; NPC's are 1st level or higher, in NPC classes. (3E DMG)
Quote from: aramis;334618Which concept? That of AD&D 1E Cavaliers and/or Grayhawk Adventures? Or that of D&D and AD&D 1E/2E of unclassed generic NPC's with skills outside the core classes?
Both, the concept of 0-level characters whether they be player characters or non-player characters.
Quote from: ColonelHardisson;334593I like the concept of 0-level characters. I cobbled together my own set of rules for 0-level PCs for AD&D, inspired by the appearance of the Cavalier in Dragon (and later Unearthed Arcana, of course). I was drawn to the idea particularly after DMing a campaign in which the PCs acquired a hireling who was a 0-level character. He somehow (maybe "miraculously" is a better word) survived a number of combats, and I felt he deserved to gain xp and go up in level.
I was enthusiastic about the NPC classes introduced in 3e, as they were (supposedly) equivalent to a PC class -1, making a 1st level NPC class effectively 0 level. In practice they are even weaker than that, especially the Commoner. I never got a chance to try it, but I'd like to have run a game where the PCs all started as 1st level Commoners, worked up to 1st level Adepts, Experts, or Warriors (their choice), and finally got to choose an actual PC class commensurate with their NPC class (not multiclassing; simply "morphing" into that class at 1st level). I wouldn't require a lot of xp for any of this, maybe just a session or part of a session; any more than that, and I'd expect a player revolt.
I liked the concept of 0-level characters (NPCs) when I first started with AD&D because it didn't make 'sense' to me that everyone in the world is from the player character classes. 0-level characters (NPCs) really came together for me when I added non-weapon proficiencies to my game (DSG and WSG). The addition of the non-proficiency system aided me in envisioning a living a vibrant world of people going about their lives.
Although, the idea of being a 'zero' something kind of irked me. Also, the Caviler's use of negative experience points really didn't make any sense to me. I think that
Rolemaster did a better job if it where beginning player characters already have experience points which can be justified as their apprenticeship and previous life experience.
I was pleased with the whole change from 0-level NPCs to NPC classes with 3.x D&D. I really liked the concept that everyone, PC and NPC alike, started off as a 1st level character. I guess I liked the idea of a relatively even playing field for both PCs and NPCs at their beginnings.
I remember once that I wanted to create a noble character in my friend's 3.5 D&D fantasy home brew, and so I created a 1st level Aristocrat. I was planning to multiclass out of the Aristocrat after 1st level, into Fighter. Boy, did my friends give me crap about that choice. They were surprised that I would 'gimp' my build. They really rode me about that choice, but I stuck to my guns and played a 1st level Aristocrat. I still get laughed about that choice now and again.
My mum ran a campaign for years (2e D&D) and in one thread (there were 4 or 5 threads and she rotated the one she ran each week) everyone started as at 0 level.
Believe me trying to burgle a house when you are a 0 level wizard aprentice with 3 hp and your only spell is unseen servant and your chance of that spell failing is 50% is pretty hard. But one of my play groups classic characters, Lord Fantastic, emerged out of that game. He was a phenomema as he had no skills at all but had rolled 18 charisma so when we were getting aprenticeships he ended up with a whole other kind of job... eventually ending up as a Lord, possibly the only 1st level lord ever to walk the land. He even got shiny armour to wear and everything.
Quote from: Drohem;334561Is that in both editions?
No, in the 2nd edition. However, I think they introduced the concept in one of their 1st ed sourcebooks. Maybe the 60s one. I don't have it to check.
Quote from: stu2000;334846No, in the 2nd edition. However, I think they introduced the concept in one of their 1st ed sourcebooks. Maybe the 60s one. I don't have it to check.
Thanks. :)