Since we've had a few Birthright fans crawl out of the woodwork over at another thread, I thought I might start a BR thread.
What did you like about the setting?
For me, it's one of the few settings that makes good on AD&D 2e's promise (well-meaning or otherwise) of high fantasy D&D. There's something unmistakably fairy-tale-ish when you start talking about kings, and bloodlines, and stealing bloodlines with magical elven "true silver" weapons, and men and women whose cursed bloodline turns them into unique monsters (The Vampire, The Chimera, The Gorgon, etc.). Not to mention, of course, the vacant imperial throne (though I'd rather have Michael Roele missing and made into a "sleeping king" legend, than killed in plain sight by The Gorgon).
The take on elves, and halflings, and later faeries (in the belated, commemorative, web-only Blood Spawn sourcebook), the Shadow World and the figure of the Cold Rider, also felt very high-fantasy and faery-tale-like.
I also liked the variety of human nations to choose from, and the several domains within each nation.
What didn't you like about it?
I disliked the idea that only "blooded" people could be rulers, but it is kind of in-genre for BR's "fairy tale" D&D. Which BTW is another reason I think super-detailed and lifelike domain management systems (like RC and ACKS) are a poor fit for BR.
I also disliked the idea that The Gorgon is immortal. I'd much rather have a dynasty of Gorgons, with each incumbent heir murdering his sire, Sith-like, and this murder representing both bloodline theft and the beginning of the monstruous transformation of man into awnshegh.
But the thing that really irked me was the Battle of Deismaar as the origin of bloodlines. "Our ancestors were just kind of hanging around when the Gods exploded" is fucking stupid. There has to be a better way to justify bloodlines in-game.
What were your games like?
Our big BR campaign was a single-realm game in which I was Count of Danigau (a warlike mage who controlled the law and magic holdings), and the other PCs were a priest (with some of the Temple holdings) and a ranger (who held no holdings but led a border watch of sorts). Sadly this was relatively short-lived, and the group never wramed up to the idea of a multi-domain game (for the most part they didn't want to get "bogged down" with running a kingdom).
Share the love, or hate, below.
I can't say BR was ever on my radar, but your description of it makes it sounds pretty cool.
I own it, but it never really lit up my imagination. Never DM'ed a single adventure in it.
Seemed like too much structure . . . the domains, and powers and such.
It was pretty, though.
I played it back in the 90s and really liked it. I liked the feodality, the bloodlines and the cool ways in which they interacted, the domains and the way they were organized. It was a really cool effort to build something different-yet-familiar using the AD&D rules.
We were playing a collective rule type campaign, where the wizard was the head of the academy of wizardry, the cleric the high priest, the fighter the ruling regent etc. It worked pretty well, between dealing with the neighbouring domains, squashing dissent in the realm, adventuring to face direct threats within the domains or locales that had just been unearthed... it was a really good experience. We never actually finished the campaign though. That's sad. I'd like to give it a shot myself some day as DM. Still have the boxed set.
Quote from: The Butcher;589000I also disliked the idea that The Gorgon is immortal. I'd much rather have a dynasty of Gorgons, with each incumbent heir murdering his sire, Sith-like, and this murder representing both bloodline theft and the beginning of the monstruous transformation of man into awnshegh.
Oooh much cooler indeed. :)
What did you like about the setting?
As a child of 2e, I was a pretty solid setting junkie, so I picked this up when it came out. Much like Planescape, the initial coolness of it was that you didn't have to wait until higher levels to experience some end-game play (i.e. planar travel and domain management respectively). The setting itself was fresh and interesting - a place where "divine right" was a very real thing, with magic powers to back it up.
What didn't you like about it?
In retrospect, that it was Yet-Another-Setting. This could have just been released this as a much-needed domain play supplement, even though the Castle Guide already held this role, and not too well, I might add.
What were your games like?
I only ran this once, but it was fun. One PC was the king and some others played his lords and bannermen. It was a big group, so while the king and his men were tending to the political and martial problems of the land, there was a secret war going on between a PC wizard and PC thief who were in charge of their particular factions in the kingdom. Good times.
Quote from: Philotomy Jurament;589011I can't say BR was ever on my radar, but your description of it makes it sounds pretty cool.
Thanks.
I believe I'm good at pitching stuff. But maybe it's just that I'm very particular about the things I like in BR.
If anything, it's a pity the fairy-tale stuff is sort of on the background and spread over several books, not front and center as it deserved to be. "You get to be King!" got most of the attention, but a big part of the draw for us was the setting stuff, which had a mythic quality that, today, reminds me of Vance's Lyonesse, or Anderson's Three Hearts & Three Lions, and which at the time made for a nice break from other AD&D 2e campaign settings which we also enjoyed, and felt so much more in line with the glossy, exhuberant (if a tad soulless) art of the 2e core books.
Quote from: 1989;589019Seemed like too much structure . . . the domains, and powers and such.
A bit, yes. Like I said, it's a more abstract system than Companion/RC D&D (or ACKS), but seeing as the world mostly operates on fairy-tale logic, I actually like it how they offer just enough substance for a player who wants to feel like a lord running a realm, and yet don't get bogged down on the minutiae of it. I think it's a delicate balance and they mostly achieved it; you get support for good kings building roads and bad kings levying obscene taxes to raise armies.
On the other hand, the domain mini-game is easily glossed over. While managing holdings is a big draw for most,
Quote from: Benoist;589024Oooh much cooler indeed. :)
After posting this, I was left wondering: who's the mom? Who would marry The Gorgon? I mean, a ruler with such an exalted and historied bloodline, the prime Scion of Azrai, wouldn't stoop to diluting his divine legacy by laying with common wenches like some weary vagabond.
The immediate answer that occurred me is that each Gorgon keeps a seraglio of blooded damsels, kidnapped from all over Cerilia to sate his lusts and breed his offspring. Many Gorgons have several heirs, but only the craftiest and most ruthless of them have a shot at murdering their monstruous sire. Some may go off and become powerful awnshegh in their own right (perhaps this is the origin of the mysterious awnshegh called The Swordhawk), but most are killed when a smarter, more callous brother claims the throne.
So, who's up to rescuing some princesses? Possibly even enlisting the help of an
awnshegh to do it?
What I liked:
In general I loved the setting. The details, the feel. It really showed what 2E AD&D could do, if you stretched a little (but see below.) It carried the feel you got from the original art 2E books, and felt very folkloric and in many ways had a feel of being a "real" world in terms of minor details.
I loved the nature of the blooded and how they could be rewarded or warped over time, and through blood-theft. I loved the monsters in terms of "fewer" monster species, and more "BIG BADS." The Gorgon, the Vampire, the Siren, the Banshee. All helped drive home that these things were powerful and in many ways made them more terrifying.
I set my setting on Caelcorwyn, and had the players all be cousins to a single major bloodline (mixed with other various bloodlines.) A former military cavalry man who was good enough to claim the isle and make it his own. Then turned his brilliance at leadership to having a formidable navy--but time struck his budding nation low, but left his descendants with the right to rule, once the main "usurper" was taken down.
I loved the dragons being ALL old creatures, and I felt the "followers at the mount" when it blew made sense, since you'd go to support the mortal incarnation of your god if you had the means in that era.
What I didn't like:
Some of the "D&D" creatures that were left behind should have been left out so we could add them in for our campaigns. I know I added "The Widow" a half-elf/goblin descendant of the Spider, and one of my players became "The Centauress" over the course of the game. (A true not sylvan centaur.) Due to her strong bloodline and her slaying of "The Doppelganger."
I didn't care for the un-used land (to the south) that was all but ignored, and I didn't care for the later "shove this adventure into that world." mandate that led them to putting Drow in an adventure (missing the point of the setting entirely.)
What didn't work:
Ah the warcards. They just didn't work for me. It was a neat idea, but I think I'd rather had a more solid mass battle system that let players actions shape the outcome.
The fact that it was for D&D. Let me be honest, if it had been for BRP, for Gurps, for virtually any other game, I'd have been delighted. I loved AD&D at the time, but it really did strain the seams of the system in many ways, and that was a "wrong fit" aspect that made me realize I was unhappy with AD&D when trying to do my own stuff.
What I would Do?
If I had the rights, I'd make it an alternate world for High Valor, as High Valor has many aspects that Birthright should have had. Or find another strong contender system.
If I had the rights I might also get someone to write a better mass battle with heroic/monstrous rulers directly shaping flow, making the divine right aspects bold.
I started writing an homage, called Dragonright (or maybe DragonWright..) I don't know. Which used Dragon's blood instead of gods, but the general idea was that men usurped dragons by right of blood. Maybe that will be publishable one day and be unique enough to be fun and carry the flavor I enjoyed, without stepping on Birthright's toes.
birthright is pretty cool. dnd was not the best fit for it, though.
I loved it, my players were lukewarm...seems none of them have a desire to be rulers.
I will agree that D&D may not have been the best for it, but I've started to think that about just about every D&D setting I played, owned or ran, aside from Forgotten Realms.
I ran one campaign in Birthright and hated it mostly because of the Domain rules & combat cards system. But the setting itself was amazing in many ways especially the awnsheilin (sp?).
A buddy of mine(who was a mediocre DM due to too many of his AD&D sessions devolving into an incoherent haze of pot smoke) ran a very long campaign in Birthright mostly ignoring the mass combat rules. The campaign had some real highlights including a friend who started out as an assassin turned vampire who over the course of the campaign redeemed himself and became regent of Avanil and a Paladin of Avani. The DM ran regular weekly sessions, but also ran daily for the pot smoking slackers he lived with so my character was eventually 10 levels behind the guys who gamed daily and the plot passed me by .
Still over the course of 3 or 4 years I played the son of the queen of Luabraight (sp?) Telperion by name whose throne was usurped by a fellow PC an Elven wizard named Vairsuul. Telperion would be a staunch enemy of Vairsuul the usurper as would his son Hyperion and his grandson Endymion (all played by me), but again Vairsuul had a 7 to 1 session advantage and I lost time and again to the Slacker brigade.
I think my buddy got alot of use out of Birthright and exploited its strengths better than I did.
What I liked about the setting itself were the Bloodlines, the xenophobic elves, the only halflings I have ever given a shit about, Azrai, the Gorgon, the Cold Rider and its atmosphere of Faerie tales and High Kings.
Birthright.net has the whole game (pretty much) downloadable for free for 3x. I have not compared it to the original material, but it might be worth a peek. With a little tinkering, it could be ported to the game of choice.
Wow, looks like there is a legal AD&D 2.5 Edition Birthright Campaign Setting available on the licensed Birthright fan site (in addition to 3x and 4e settings). Registration is required to download, but it is free (other nifty BR things as well):
http://www.birthright.net/forums/downloads.php?do=file&id=169
All I really remember about Birthright is that it was full of names I couldn't pronounce and couldn't remember how to spell to save my life. Sad, as I bought the box when it came out and was quite excited about the idea at first.
What I liked about Birthright's setting
I like the idea of divine right had actual representation. I like to think of it as a sort of regal presence invested into a personage. Call it popularity, presence, faith, fear, etc. but it's that special leadership something that makes certain people stand out. ... I'm thinking of ripping out bloodlines for another run of it, converting it to just a popularity meter. That way anyone can be a regent, but you have to build up the people's faith/fear in you. And the more they believe in you, the more RP you can retain, and thus the more you can accomplish.
I like the limits on magic. Unless you're a True Mage you're capped to 3rd lvl spells in all but the divination and illusion schools. Really puts the kibosh on sorcerer keeps littering the land. If you aren't a True Mage source regent, you have a very good reason to work with civilization -- survival. And even then, a True Mage source regent should fear civilization (for as it grows, so weakens source), but realize it's too powerful a force to contain (one against thousands upon thousands!) -- that and the awnsheigh will kill you if you're too isolated.
I like the 5 culture division of the continent. Gives digestible chunks of the continent to work with. You know the nations within will work relatively well together, but still be different enough to keep play interesting. And it gives more than just national boundaries to affect PC/NPC relations.
I like domain management, period. I like how there's a political boundary domain and then civic/natural domains that can cross political boundaries. It makes every province a contested region where cooperation is crucial. The regents have a "united we stand, divided we fall" situation with enough internal pressing needs for each to really test any alliance. It's literally an adventure hook generator, spewing out more 'world in motion' responsibility than you can shake a stick at. Which gets to my next fave...
I like delegation. You have to delegate as a regent. Having lieutenants is crucial. It's also a great place for additional PCs (multi-realm play is quite advance and will set many a new-to-Birthright table right off it quickly). Delegating bandit crushing or diplomatic ententes to fellow PCs allows players to find utility and adventure in pretty much any walk of life. And if anyone's exhausted adventuring out every least little thing, there's a chart to roll off for that.
I like maps. :) I like contour maps. I also like maps with lots of political lines. And to get a map with more than just political lines, but sub-political lines within each province -- often inversely related to mankind's effect upon the contour maps -- is like a thing of pure joy to me. My inner physical and social geographer completely geeks the fuck out.
:cheerleader:
What I didn't like about Birthright's setting
The seeming inevitability that the Gorgon or other awnsheigh will win. Azrai taint is crazy powerful, and immortality doesn't help. Just to kill the Spider, you'd have to raise an army of unblooded commoners to surround the goblin woods, light the whole thing on fire, slay everyone and everything, and make sure the last hit against the Spider was from a wave of commoner arrows, light its body on fire (probably stab at it with tighmaevril, too...), scatter the ashes, bless the land, and pray not a single commoner lied to you about its bloodline (or recently received secret investiture). Annoying.
Never read the adventure modules (as I haven't come across a good one yet), but to hear that the drow made a cameo is disappointing. If it was Drizz't, I'd begin to understand why so many have an undying hatred of that Mary Sue.
Lack of other continents to explore. I know, it's petty of me. There's already an entire continent filled with a lifetime of stuff to play with. But I still want more. Aduria and Djapar were a cruel tease. Thaele is frozen, but still there's summer colonies.
What are my games like
Heavy on the politics and bureaucracy. No interest in combat yet. They like the idea of making D&D do something else, and so far it's working fine. Attribute rolls help a lot here. Even though there's lots of NWP to work with (especially if you twink out on PO:S&P), using common sense and attribute rolls instead of relying on skill rolls for everything helps so much. You're free to attempt anything: we'll role play it out, and if necessary I'll set difficulty and roll it out.
I haven't had a chance to test out the war cards, but I'm loathe to pop them off the sprue sheet. I'll likely index card them and run it from those. Doesn't look too exciting, but might not be all that bad either. I like hex chit battles, so this might be more... sane in the time department. Thankfully it's only an optional mass battle method.
Quote from: Corvus;589187All I really remember about Birthright is that it was full of names I couldn't pronounce and couldn't remember how to spell to save my life. Sad, as I bought the box when it came out and was quite excited about the idea at first.
This, man. This.
We tried. We tried sounding it out. We tried applying our own standardized pronunciations. But none of the places or people were able to stick with us because we were unable to speak the language, as it were.
We started a campaign with some blooded cast-offs heading into the Giantdowns. It had a pioneering, explorative feel to it. But between people not being able to show up all the time and the lack of memorable setting stuff, it quietly died.
It's a shame. Cause I really wanted to like it. Still do.
Heh, yeah, pseudo-Celtic is a pain in the ass for pronunciation/spelling issues. You may like the other culture lands better, as they have more stuff stand out besides the already standard "British Isles sword and sorcery" of Anuire.
Quote from: Opaopajr;589226Heh, yeah, pseudo-Celtic is a pain in the ass for pronunciation/spelling issues. You may like the other culture lands better, as they have more stuff stand out besides the already standard "British Isles sword and sorcery" of Anuire.
Another strength of the setting. You can have Renaissance German swashbucklers (Brecht), sophisticated Near Eastern sorcerers (Khinasi), goddamn Vikings (Rjurik) and grim lizard-riding* Slavic tribesmen (Vos).
* another thing to dislike, the riding lizards. I'd replace them with dire wolves, or dire bears, or even wooly mammooths.
Yeah, dire-snow lizards was one of those trying-too-hard attempts at cool. Almost forgot about that (thanks...). Add that to the things I didn't like.
However I did like how monsters ruled territory. I also liked how awnsheghlien (I went back and looked up the spelling, :p) were more complicated than "Full hardcore unreasoning, uncompromising evil, at all times! This Sunday! Sunday! Sunday!"
The Siren, the Vampire, and the Banshee (or was it Banshegh?) were rather tragic figures trying to make something work out with their unintended monstrosity. Blooded humans who'd slain an awnshegh and now tainted, trying to stem their devolution. With that and 'the Shadowlands' mystical dimension overlay it was like an homage to Ravenloft.
Hmm, that makes me wanna run a crossover campaign in one of those territories now...
I liked the riding lizard/serpents with fur. It was very cool to me, which usually such ideas fall flat with me, and I'm "man, what?" but that one just seemed to fit for me.
I'll have to get Tribe of the Heartless Waste to see if they made that creature's ecological backstory worth it. But from what I currently have it doesn't do much for me. Another man's treasure and all...
Quote from: The Butcher;589242Another strength of the setting. You can have Renaissance German swashbucklers (Brecht), sophisticated Near Eastern sorcerers (Khinasi), goddamn Vikings (Rjurik) and grim lizard-riding* Slavic tribesmen (Vos).
You know, you're right. That Khinasi stuff was pretty interesting if I remember right. If I dip my toe back into Birthright, I think I will concentrate my efforts there.
Quote from: 1989;589019I own it, but it never really lit up my imagination. Never DM'ed a single adventure in it.
Seemed like too much structure . . . the domains, and powers and such.
It was pretty, though.
For me it was much the same; I've got nothing against it, but I found it pretty blah.
RPGPundit
Quote from: Corvus;589187All I really remember about Birthright is that it was full of names I couldn't pronounce and couldn't remember how to spell to save my life.
That's something else I disliked about it, yeah.
RPGPundit
What did you like about the setting?
In particular, Vosgard was quite a cool brutal fantasy locale.
The world had many diverse nations to explore.
What didn't you like about it?
The kingdom building mechanics were too cumbersome
What were your games like?
I only had a chance to run one long term campaign, but it was great.
Took place in the cold heartless realm of Vosgard. Lost sof plot lines involving 'Civilized' diplomats daring to enter Vosgard, the Rising of the cult of Loviatar, and ogre magi as the main villains.