I'm talking Arms Law, Character Law etc. Who's used these Rolemaster parts to houserule their AD&D game, instead of using RM as a system of its own? What did you incorporate, and what didn't you? How did it work out for you?
Heh, Ben you know Rolemaster's rules were created as a "more realistic" (d'oh!) substitute to AD&D's systems-in-being.
Anyway.
We've tried them in our group before and they don't work. Rolemaster isn't about wading in to a room with 40 kobolds with 4 3rd level fighters and finishing up in 20 minutes (or less). You just can't have quick throwdowns like that with RM. RM asks too much of each combat. Stop, roll dice, how much OB how much DB, did you hit, now roll a critical, now mark what it does to one creature, keep track of that, move to the next, and so on.
Leave RM to RM and AD&D to AD&D.
When I was about 15, I got this huge box of books from the thrift store on base for $10. It had 30-40 issues of old Dragons (from the teens on), complete set of AD&D books, tons of Judges Guild module, etc. One of the items was Arms Law, the original one "designed for fantasy role playing games". So of course, having only played Mentzer and BTB AD&D up to this point, I immediately started using Arms Law in our game. I wasn't even aware that Rolemaster was distinct system. Anyway, considering I was playing SFB regularly at the local hobby shop on the weekends, it made perfect sense to graft a more complex combat system onto D&D. All the crit tables changed the complexion of the game, and it pretty much ramped up the deadliness to new levels. I did like how it de-quantified hit points, though. A lucky hit from a kobold could take out the most powerful warrior. A few years ago, we played AD&D with Arms Law crit tables yet again, and it was fun. But, once again, it really changes how the game is played.
As far as that giant box goes, I sold all the Judges Guild crap and Dragons to some dude for a tidy sum which bankrolled my whole summer vacation.
I never found any use for the RM stuff..
Quote from: RPGPundit;663486I never found any use for the RM stuff..
I know that RM originally was toolbox for AD&D but I never used any RM rules in my AD&D games.
RM adventures on the other side... I made use of
Vog Mur, Iron Wind, Cloudlord of Tanara , Court of Ardor.And of course many MERP modules.
Quote from: Benoist;663222I'm talking Arms Law, Character Law etc. Who's used these Rolemaster parts to houserule their AD&D game, instead of using RM as a system of its own? What did you incorporate, and what didn't you? How did it work out for you?
I did this once, and it worked fine. Very lethal.
There was even a chart to convert rolemaster stats to 3-18; handy to determine spell points.
I used Spell Law, Arms Law, Claw Law.
Added Constitution stat to Hitpoints at level 1.
Converted bonuses to hit 1=5%
Spell casters were 'weak' until I realized they needed spell multiplier/adders.
It worked but I think I used so much of Rolemaster I may as well have just used all rolemaster.
I also have just used the critical charts from rolemaster for dnd.
Quote from: thedungeondelver;663274Heh, Ben you know Rolemaster's rules were created as a "more realistic" (d'oh!) substitute to AD&D's systems-in-being.
Yup. That's why I wondered if someone actually did this. You remember the triple stats supplements of ICE too?
Quote from: thedungeondelver;663274Anyway.
We've tried them in our group before and they don't work. Rolemaster isn't about wading in to a room with 40 kobolds with 4 3rd level fighters and finishing up in 20 minutes (or less). You just can't have quick throwdowns like that with RM. RM asks too much of each combat. Stop, roll dice, how much OB how much DB, did you hit, now roll a critical, now mark what it does to one creature, keep track of that, move to the next, and so on.
Leave RM to RM and AD&D to AD&D.
Yeah I'd expect the feel of the game to be changed drastically. What you describe doesn't surprise me one bit, though the lethality of combat in RM meant that some fights could be over really quick with a sudden turn of the luck of the dice, one way or the other.
Quote from: Brad;663329When I was about 15, I got this huge box of books from the thrift store on base for $10. It had 30-40 issues of old Dragons (from the teens on), complete set of AD&D books, tons of Judges Guild module, etc. One of the items was Arms Law, the original one "designed for fantasy role playing games". So of course, having only played Mentzer and BTB AD&D up to this point, I immediately started using Arms Law in our game. I wasn't even aware that Rolemaster was distinct system. Anyway, considering I was playing SFB regularly at the local hobby shop on the weekends, it made perfect sense to graft a more complex combat system onto D&D. All the crit tables changed the complexion of the game, and it pretty much ramped up the deadliness to new levels. I did like how it de-quantified hit points, though. A lucky hit from a kobold could take out the most powerful warrior. A few years ago, we played AD&D with Arms Law crit tables yet again, and it was fun. But, once again, it really changes how the game is played.
As far as that giant box goes, I sold all the Judges Guild crap and Dragons to some dude for a tidy sum which bankrolled my whole summer vacation.
Cool. Did you convert percentile modifiers to d20 values on a 5:1 basis like Bill (see below), or did you do something else entirely?
Quote from: Bill;663542I did this once, and it worked fine. Very lethal.
There was even a chart to convert rolemaster stats to 3-18; handy to determine spell points.
I used Spell Law, Arms Law, Claw Law.
Added Constitution stat to Hitpoints at level 1.
Converted bonuses to hit 1=5%
Spell casters were 'weak' until I realized they needed spell multiplier/adders.
It worked but I think I used so much of Rolemaster I may as well have just used all rolemaster.
LOL Well I can imagine there's a sweet spot for somebody somewhere between the two. You've played Palladium Fantasy 1e, correct? How similar did that feel?
Quote from: Bill;663542I also have just used the critical charts from rolemaster for dnd.
Those are fun.
Nope, I came to Rolemaster late and complete. However, I've always thought Palladium was a better match for it than D&D. D&D required substantial conversion. Palladium only requires a x 5.
Quote from: Benoist;663545Cool. Did you convert percentile modifiers to d20 values on a 5:1 basis like Bill (see below), or did you do something else entirely?
LOL Well I can imagine there's a sweet spot for somebody somewhere between the two. You've played Palladium Fantasy 1e, correct? How similar did that feel?
Those are fun.
I played teenage mutant ninja turtles, rifts, and a supers paladium game(I think.) I may not have actually played the fantasy version.
Been quite a few years so my memory is weaksauce on that.
Quote from: Bill;663581I played teenage mutant ninja turtles, rifts, and a supers paladium game(I think.) I may not have actually played the fantasy version.
Been quite a few years so my memory is weaksauce on that.
OK No problem. I still need to get myself a copy of TMNT.
A buddy of mine ran a number of AD&D games using the Arms Law crits & fumbles.
The first time I faced combat when he used these rules it was against a wereshark and my 1st level elven F/M/T survived the encounter due to the wereshark making a massive fumble with a magic broadsword. I reached over and pulled the blade from the headless corpse.
At present I'm using the combat & tactics and the spells & magic crits as well as Spells & magic spell points because I'm running a Shadow World campaign and I'm trying to emulate the feel of the setting. I have also converted a number of spells from RM to AD&D. I have been converting MERP magic Items into AD&D items using roughly the same rules since around 1996 or whenever the spells and magic book came out.
Quote from: Benoist;663545Cool. Did you convert percentile modifiers to d20 values on a 5:1 basis like Bill (see below), or did you do something else entirely?
I wasn't the GM so I'm not sure I recall how it was handled. I'll see if the guy recalls and get back to you. We just kinda found it clunky...
Quote from: Benoist;663545Cool. Did you convert percentile modifiers to d20 values on a 5:1 basis like Bill (see below), or did you do something else entirely?
What we did was roll an open-ended d100 whenever there was a crit/fumble (20/1). It was pretty random, but fun. I started giving fighters a modifier of +10/level to the roll and thieves a bonus for backstabs, replacing the x2 damage.
Quote from: Kyussopeth;663631A buddy of mine ran a number of AD&D games using the Arms Law crits & fumbles.
The first time I faced combat when he used these rules it was against a wereshark and my 1st level elven F/M/T survived the encounter due to the wereshark making a massive fumble with a magic broadsword. I reached over and pulled the blade from the headless corpse.
At present I'm using the combat & tactics and the spells & magic crits as well as Spells & magic spell points because I'm running a Shadow World campaign and I'm trying to emulate the feel of the setting. I have also converted a number of spells from RM to AD&D. I have been converting MERP magic Items into AD&D items using roughly the same rules since around 1996 or whenever the spells and magic book came out.
That all sounds very cool. :)
Especially liked the Wereshark story. And the visual of the hybrid form holding a magical broad sword to hack, impale and bite people's heads off. :D
Quote from: thedungeondelver;663634I wasn't the GM so I'm not sure I recall how it was handled. I'll see if the guy recalls and get back to you. We just kinda found it clunky...
Sure. I'd like to know the details if possible.
Quote from: Brad;663820What we did was roll an open-ended d100 whenever there was a crit/fumble (20/1). It was pretty random, but fun. I started giving fighters a modifier of +10/level to the roll and thieves a bonus for backstabs, replacing the x2 damage.
Crits occurred on a nat 20 I presume? I like the idea of modifiers on the crit tables. I can see that working well.
Quote from: Benoist;663876That all sounds very cool. :)
Especially liked the Wereshark story. And the visual of the hybrid form holding a magical broad sword to hack, impale and bite people's heads off. :D
Sure. I'd like to know the details if possible.
Crits occurred on a nat 20 I presume? I like the idea of modifiers on the crit tables. I can see that working well.
I recommend adjusting the probability of the A to E severity instead of adding a bonus to the actual crit rolls.
Quote from: Bill;663906I recommend adjusting the probability of the A to E severity instead of adding a bonus to the actual crit rolls.
I could see that perhaps being a better way to go, if porting Arms and Spell tables to AD&D, using just the critical tables or unique ones inspired by them written by the dm for a specific campaign setting.
Quote from: Benoist;663222I'm talking Arms Law, Character Law etc. Who's used these Rolemaster parts to houserule their AD&D game, instead of using RM as a system of its own? What did you incorporate, and what didn't you? How did it work out for you?
Benoist, you played Rolemaster quite a bit back in the day, as I understand. Did you ever get around to making your own critical tables?
Quote from: Kuroth;664009Benoist, you played Rolemaster quite a bit back in the day, as I understand. Did you ever get around to making your own critical tables?
I might have once, but hell if I can remember what the type of attack actually was!
Quote from: Benoist;664022I might have once, but hell if I can remember what the type of attack actually was!
If it was something you made when you were like 13! It would be cool to have something like that about. Always find it cool that Rolemaster was your first rpg.
I find the really cool thing about RM is the relative ease with which you can come up with new spell lists. There are enough lists in all the companions that you can mix and match several lists from different classes to come up with a new spell-using class.
Quote from: One Horse Town;664057I find the really cool thing about RM is the relative ease with which you can come up with new spell lists. There are enough lists in all the companions that you can mix and match several lists from different classes to come up with a new spell-using class.
So true. Also, I like how Space Master 1st edition states so strongly that other professions should be developed by the gamemaster, along with the 14 provided by the game. As an example, it suggests that one could easily add 12 more research scientist professions. I find it funny that they chose to use researchers as an example of gamemaster profession choice expansion. It has been a fun change of late.
I have been focusing on Space Master 1st edition and Middle-earth lately, and I noticed that Arms Law would be a great substitute combat ruling for Lejendary Adventures. AD&D combat works, and it doesn't really need Arms Law. Lejendary Adventures does need something different. Lejendary Adventures' Weapon Ability or Precision would be used directly as a Rolemaster offensive bonus using Arms Law. Avatars are about 5th level Rolemaster characters at generation, and Health would be used directly as hit points. Otherwise, Arms law plugs right into Lejendary Adventure, completly replacing the given combat system. Lejendary Adventures' non-combat rules are fine, but it would benefit from this ad hoc modification.
Using Arms Law with AD&D is relatively easy. Just translate all the ACs into AL format (AT + defence modifiers), and double all hit points (perhaps triple for PCs and important NPCs).
I actually might do this, or at least integrate AL's critical and fumble charts in some way, next time I play AD&D (or some similar system).
Spell Law would be harder, as its power scale is more spread out than that of AD&D (i.e., a 10th level SL spellcaster is roughly equivalent to a 6th level AD&D caster).
There is no point in using Character Law with AD&D.