Quote from: Anglachel;1125620Meh...the usual massive overreaction of all the special snowflake morons that now are part of our hobby. Was it a good idea what Adam did? No, not if he admits that they didn't have a real "session zero" talk. But honestly, watch that scene...if this is your definition of rape, you are insulting all human beings who ever really got raped. This is blown waaaay out of proportion.

What i find more damning is how full on black&white-and-nothing-else people are...no one is ever allowed to make a mistake...these SJW just burn you down for good. No chance of redemption EVER. And they really think they are good people?! With that attitude? Fucking hypocrites, all of them.
The amount of folks who really think that they are on moral highground is appalling.

I fully agree with this.

I mean, unless you are living some weird inseparable and vicarious bond with your own PC, ala Tom Hanks in the movie "Mazes and Monsters" (and if anyone is then they legitimately need to seek professional help), then having a robot engineer insert a robot module in your system that makes you feel an orgasm for the first time shouldn't leave you ruined as a human being and questioning if the DM is actually your real-life friend.

As a matter of fact, I think that entire scenario is so lame that I can't even fathom why Adam introduced it. I wasn't particularly funny or "hot" (I don't know what this group is into). But to act like they, as a group, couldn't just tell Adam to STFU / retcon and keep gaming is beyond me.

And this is coming from a guy who has never been involved in any TTRPG where any player or PC has ever had an orgasm or sex in a gaming session. So it's not like I'm "into" whatever Adam was doing.

The only thing for me is why NONE of the other players said anything at the time of the incident. They looked uncomfortable and unhappy yet decided not to call him out on his behavior. It was "pass the buck let someone else say something". I still think Adam was a dumbass for putting that in as it's something that is hard to do properly and usually not welcome at the table. Granted the other players quit after the session why not do something about it in real time.

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;1125702I don't understand why people always say this shit every time someone calls out an abuser. Who do you think these people abuse? Do you think they don't exist? Someone has to date them. I guess you think all those women that accused Cosby or had to suck it up because of the industry after Weinstein was done with them were all making it up? Dating someone you realized was a mistake later isn't exactly unheard of, let alone getting taken advantage of.

I'm no liberal, "believe all women" is just suspending judgment, but the opposite of "believe NO women" is stupid too.

Now let's use our own judgment. Yes, she's an ex, so if this was before this fiasco, and Adam Koebel is in good standing, it'd be one thing. But Koebel already showed he thought this whole rape thing was fine and that reveals a certain mindset -- so is it that big a leap from this to that?

Well, right now he's provably a dumbass at minimum and possibly a creep, based on public video evidence. This reddit post serves to say "he's consistently a creep" and escalate it to "and also an abuser". I think it is a significant step to go from "idiot says stupid things" to "asshole abuses girlfriend". To the extent that it doesn't seem like a big change, that concerns me: it means a thought- or speech-"wrongdoing" escalates to evidence for and the consequences of a much more severe transgression, and on the basis of an anonymous internet account only.

Abusers do get dates, sadly, and abuse is real and serious. But people like Aziz Ansari also get anonymously accused of being an abuser. Despite the presence of a clear ulterior motive for these accusations, Nolan Bushnell was publicly condemned and suffered over anonymous, evidence-light or evidence-free accusations of abuse (it's been a while) that stuck even though the women who worked with him came forward to support him under their real names.

Ultimately, trial by internet and/or mob is really stupid, not least because humans are terrible at it. Ulterior motives do exist, and sometimes opportunities are a chance to speak up for someone who has been silent -- and sometimes they are an opportunity to pile on for ulterior reasons. As tempting as it is to engage in, there's a reason that the rule of law and as-impartial-as-possible, evidence-based judgment has been such a boon to human society. I worry at how keen we seem to be to give that up.

(LOL I would be so banned from RPG.net for this, wouldn't I)

This is why I don't care if someone is called a Nazi or a rapist or an abuser. Shit always turns out to be some gossip nonsense, and I'll be fucked if I sit through a bunch of lame session videos and their resultant commentaries to try and sort this mess out. I've got better things to do, like pick my nose with a razor blade.

Was the rape scene actually rape? Well, it involves someone who knows nothing about sex being tricked into sex by someone who does. I think the reason why the girl player was creeped out is that it reminded her of being a child being preyed upon by a creeper, which I'm sure she probably experienced.

This reminds me of a movie that I recently saw, Satanic Panic (on Shudder), which turned out to be quite a pleasant surprise, especially given that I am a harsh critic. A good story, a good mythology, is one that contains the truth. As humans we have been watching ourselves for thousands of years, and our stories reflect what we see in ourselves.

This movie was a horror/comedy about a pizza delivery girl who runs afoul of a group of Satanists looking for a virgin to bear their master's devil spawn. Near the end of the movie she is raped by a demon creature. Predictably, the cult's scheme goes horribly wrong (but I'm not telling why so as not to spoil the story), and it involves mass slaughter and fluffy bunnies. The movie ends in a very satisfying way.

What I like about this movie is that its creators understand the horror genre, they understand their audience (very rare these days), and they understand black comedy, which isn't farce, but a very witty and perverse way of observing the horror inherent in reality.

Two points come to mind: The way that Koebel's scheme blows up in his face in the live stream is echoed in the movie -- he got fluffy bunnies instead of what he was expecting. And the robot rape is reflected in the movie with the rape of the protagonist during the cult's Satanic ritual, underscoring the antisocial nature of evil.

I can totally see the scene in this movie happening in an AD&D game, especially with the prevalence of evil cults. In fact, that is the scene depicted on the cover of Eldritch Wizardry, Dungeons & Dragons Suplement III. This isn't voyeurism, but a re-telling of ancient truths. There is an alignment system which makes clear the distinction between good and evil, altruism and psychopathy. There is no murky moral relativism.

As with all male feminists, Koebel is a creepy Satanic guy. He does creepy Satanic stuff. I have no problem with that.

What I have a problem with is these girls who grow up in the bubble of feminism and hang out with these creepy guys and then act surprised when they do creepy things. You buy the ticket, you ride the ride. She bought the ticket. She didn't like the ride.

QuoteJudi Ross: "Oh my god. You're like a big retarded baby. My mom and her butt buddies are booty calling Baphoment, and we're gonna hide in here like scared little bitches because they can turn your liver into fire ants. If they find us, they're not gonna kill us- they're gonna do shit that you can't comprehend. And they're not going to stop until you're strapped naked to a barbed wire altar with a fifteen foot beast of Gehenna and his double pronged demon dong walking around your cooch chute like it's a revolving door of ground beef."

...

Samantha 'Sam' Craft: "I should stop drinking."

Judi Ross: "You really wanna face this shit sober?"

-- Satanic Panic (2019)

Quote from: RPGPundit;1125655Things appear to be getting worse for Adam "I'm a male feminist and people I call misogynists should be blacklisted" Koebel!

Oof. I had a feeling there were going to be skeletons in his closet...

I know nothing about this Adam fellow, other than that the RPG on my shelf turned out to be 99% sound and fury, signifying nothing, but there's a useful rule of thumb that applies to public figures:

Feminist on the streets, predator in the sheets.

Quote from: sureshot;1125729The only thing for me is why NONE of the other players said anything at the time of the incident.

This has happened to me before; where I was didn't speak up because I was surprised it was actually happening and wasn't sure where it was heading until after it had finished. But, in effect, the players used their one unstoppable game power which is to not come back to the game. Whether they were pressured into it or just had had enough of the DM's crap we don't know but I'll assume that the players weren't having much fun in the game to begin with to leave so easily.

To me this just illustrates why the "X-Card" system is useless. All it does is encourage to DM to do whatever he want up until the point that the player raises the card. Without that as a crutch, DM will need to be constantly gauging reactions to see when he is headed in the wrong direction.

I watched Eastman's video on why she quit, but I haven't gone over other details so I don't have any opinion yet on the specific game and people. So for now I'm just commenting about issues rather than specifics.

Quote from: sureshotThe only thing for me is why NONE of the other players said anything at the time of the incident.

Quote from: hedgehobbit;1125822This has happened to me before; where I was didn't speak up because I was surprised it was actually happening and wasn't sure where it was heading until after it had finished. But, in effect, the players used their one unstoppable game power which is to not come back to the game. Whether they were pressured into it or just had had enough of the DM's crap we don't know but I'll assume that the players weren't having much fun in the game to begin with to leave so easily.

Yeah, that's happened to me before as well. I've had GMs pull crap that made me want to quit the game -- but I didn't stand up at the table and immediately confront them over it. I think there's a strong bias against making a scene at the table, and I'm not sure it would do much good if one did have a confrontation. I suspect it would likely just make the conflict worse.

Quote from: hedgehobbit;1125822To me this just illustrates why the "X-Card" system is useless. All it does is encourage to DM to do whatever he want up until the point that the player raises the card. Without that as a crutch, DM will need to be constantly gauging reactions to see when he is headed in the wrong direction.

I agree that the card doesn't replace assessing the players, though to be fair a GM can have the card and also gauge reactions.

Quote from: Spike;1125687notice he blames the lack of X-cards in his apology...), .

I really, really, hope Koebel doubles down on the lack of X-cards being used by his players.

The SJW's are desperate to impose the X-Card on the hobby. And if Koebel doubles down on its lack of use it puts them in a tough spot.

By their own standards; lack of use of the X-Card should be a get out of jail free pass for Koebel. But also by their own standards; they really can't let him get a free pass on this.

I hope he doubles down so we can see the mental gymnastics they use to justify having their cake and eating their own too...

Quote from: jhkim;1125825....
I agree that the card doesn't replace assessing the players, though to be fair a GM can have the card and also gauge reactions.

The X-Card is not needed at all, because: How hard is it to not have the rapey or a creepy sex encounter on a PC in a game?

WTF? Why does anyone go there? In my sunday group 3 out of the 5 players are female. It's just not that hard to leave some things out of a game. Why would you do that?

Quote from: Cloyer Bulse;1125771...
What I have a problem with is these girls who grow up in the bubble of feminism and hang out with these creepy guys and then act surprised when they do creepy things. .

This is a real issue. The brainwashing is strong in feminism.

Good thread with lots of useful commentary.  I hadn't seen that reddit post before.  

I blogged about it.  TL;DR: I don't think what Adam did in the game was all that bad.  However, he seems to be an ass-hat for different reasons.  If you're curious to read the whole thing, here's a link: https://vengersatanis.blogspot.com/2020/04/adam-koebel-sexual-assault-scandal.html

VS

Didn't I make this point elsewhere?

If your game involves mature/disturbing themes, you talk about it up front before the game starts. 'Hi, we're playing Unknown Armies, expect to get skullfucked at some point' might be slightly crass, but I'd be a lot happier as a player if it wasn't sprung on me two sessions in.

I'm scouring my memories for any record of this sort of thing happening in any of MY games, and the closest I can come to was a Shadowrun game where my male dwarf rigger hooked up with a female Urban Brawl champion by accident (long story). This was played primarily for laughs and no 'mature' themes entered into it. I guess my rigger liked his ladies tough and muscular too

I'm inclined to forgive the other players for not speaking up; sometimes you don't realize the train wreck is happening until the bits stop hitting the ground. But Mr. Koebel needs to have a long sit down of mental introspection about cramming his creepy magical realm ideas into his games.

Quote from: Jaeger;1125831The X-Card is not needed at all, because: How hard is it to not have the rapey or a creepy sex encounter on a PC in a game?

WTF? Why does anyone go there? In my sunday group 3 out of the 5 players are female. It's just not that hard to leave some things out of a game. Why would you do that?

THIS, so much this.

One of the better Labyrinth Lord groups I ever had included a lesbian playing an Elf. She role-played her elf becoming attracted to an NPC elf. In game, it was two beautiful elf maidens exploring their attraction to each other. In Real Life, it was small tom-boyish lesbian and a fat bearded graying straight man, so the in character romance never got too deep or graphic because I didn't want to creep her out and lose one of my best Players. It didn't take rocket science to figure out the best way to handle the situation, just a little application of common sense.

Quote from: jeff37923;1125853THIS, so much this.

One of the better Labyrinth Lord groups I ever had included a lesbian playing an Elf. She role-played her elf becoming attracted to an NPC elf. In game, it was two beautiful elf maidens exploring their attraction to each other. ... so the in character romance never got too deep or graphic .... It didn't take rocket science to figure out the best way to handle the situation, just a little application of common sense.

Exactly.

I my current star wars game on of the female players/PC's is perusing a romantic angle.

Fading to black at certain moments is not that hard.

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;1125596Do people get over trauma without counseling.

People will sometimes go to counseling if they can't get over a trauma.