Quote from: oggsmash;1125642Some people think walking up to strange women and sniffing their hair and putting your hands on them is fine.  I guess some people think bringing up ANYTHING that could be construed as sexual assault, and watching the scene on the quartering, his tone was real rapey.  Would i call it rape?  No.  But, no way in hell does what he did fall into the boundaries of expected table top play.  His player reactions should have been a massive que.  I dont care to cancel him, but I to ROFLMAO that he has been oh so very woke and now has to survive in the pit trap he built, with the monsters he fed.

Agreed and seconded. the subject should have been handled very carefully if even allowed at the table and he just seemed to want to die on that particular hill and expected his SJW credentials to shield him from any responsibility of his truly stupid decision to include it at the table. Reading the room is not an exact science anything remotely involving sexual assault is a no brainer.

Yeah, again, sureshot, your definition of rape is offensive if you think that was a rape scene. Have you even seen the video being talked about? It didn't even involve sexual actions... . But again, not my main point. But good for you being all judgmental...that's apparently your one good skill.
Unsurprisingly, you are the usual standard (probably american) douchebag who thinks it's ok to kill and mutilate (and probably torture as well) all day long in rpgs but then you go haywire if there is just the tiniest bit of whatever other problematic stuff there is (in this case, a robot having a software induced Orgasm...oh nooo, the horror... :rolleyes:). You and your doublestandardy morals are really cute.

As i said, Adam made mistakes. The biggest being not having a clear and decisive talk with his group before session 1. And then, yes, pretty completely not getting the "table"-vibes.
And lol...yeah, I'm not an Adam apologist. I have a lot of Schadenfreude atm because I really think that Koebel is too full of himself. I'm sure this is a very humbling experience for him. But i find the nerd-outrage out there just laughable. As said, hypocrits.
As if there are people who can judge what is ok at the table for all roleplayers ever :rolleyes:

And, you know, you also can proactively talk to your GM before session one. So if player A nerver ever wants to have anything to do in play with anything close to sexual, tell your GM. Why should all the responsibility be on the GM?

Everyone makes mistakes and if someone takes action to undo and/or apologize sincerely, they deserve second chances because to err is human. I am happy to slap down Kno-balls now and if he smartens up in the future, I am happy to support him them. People can learn and change. But at THIS moment, he's the RPG equivalent of 80s tele-evangelists caught doing the opposite of what they preach.

Quote from: S'mon;1125595Doing that right away is a great way to make things worse. You do that if you can't get over a trauma. Never as a first response.

I'm not referring to the game incident as trauma, and I should have been more specific. If its true she was sexually assaulted and sought out gaming to learn "how to say no to friends", that's sounds like long term issues she needs counseling for. Again, if its true. It's the internet so only she knows.

Also, I see no problem with people seeking immediate counseling after a trauma. Note I said counseling, not a full treatment program and certainly not being tossed into a prescription drug regimen. In the past, people would seek out their parish priest after something traumatic. Or have elders in their family to provide support, listening and wisdom. Today, we have rent-a-friends in psychologist offices who can be used as sounding boards and empathy givers. The advantage of a professional evaluation is a good therapist could determine if there's serious underlying issues and unresolved past traumas far beyond an immediate incident.

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;1125596Do people get over trauma without counseling.

Absolutely! Everyone's brain is different and so much depends on childhood upbringing. I've read about 9/11 responders who had been first responders for decades in NYC dealing with gruesome shit daily, but the sheer scope of the 9/11 dead snapped something inside of them. But on the other hand, I've read about how the majority of combat vets return home without issue. Humans are weird. We're not one size fits all, especially our brains.

Except to zombies. Then our brains are all equally tasty. Braaaaaaaaaaains!!!!

Quote from: lordmalachdrim;1125515He's also been a big supporter/promoter of Fox's Warhammer ripoff. I wonder if we'll hear anything from him and his group in condemnation over Adam's actions?

Not just a supporter/promoter, it appears Fox had a business dealing with some capacity with Koebel, as an "influencer" to run his games.

First, hilarious that Fox needs to pay people to run his game.

Second, funny how everyone who's had a Metoo-esque scandal in the hobby is a business associate of Fox, huh? He was working with Zak S too.

Quote from: NeonAce;1125533My basic feeling about Dungeon World is summed up like this:

Ninjas & Superspies: A game where you pretend to be characters getting up to crazy martial arts adventure & gunplay.
Hong Kong Action Theater: A game where you pretend to be characters who are actors pretending to be characters getting up to crazy martial arts adventure & gunplay.

Dungeons & Dragons: A game where you pretend to be characters getting into all kinds of fantasy adventure hijinks.
Dungeon World: A game where you pretend to be playing Dungeons & Dragons pretending to be characters getting into all kinds of fantasy adventure hijinks.

In both the HKAT & DW scenarios, I don't see what the intermediating bit does to improve things. It just seems like a less vital thing where you evoke some tropes and chuckle because they bring back a faded memory of how cool it was to experience or do the thing more directly.

Exactly.

Things appear to be getting worse for Adam "I'm a male feminist and people I call misogynists should be blacklisted" Koebel!

Quote from: Spinachcat;1125649Except to zombies. Then our brains are all equally tasty. Braaaaaaaaaaains!!!!

Sorry, but the zombies are just trying to be polite. Some brains definitely taste better than others.

Quote from: Anglachel;1125647Yeah, again, sureshot, your definition of rape is offensive if you think that was a rape scene. Have you even seen the video being talked about? It didn't even involve sexual actions... . But again, not my main point. But good for you being all judgmental...that's apparently your one good skill.

Unless the DMs checks with the player(s) any form of sexual assault at most tables is big no-no. Even then it is not a comfortable subject for most players and DMs. The player who was subject to the scene was bothered enough to leave. The rest of the group quit. Doing it on a livestream was an even stupider thing to do. Maybe I am judgmental better than being an apologist making excuses for someone who should have know better.

Quote from: Anglachel;1125647Unsurprisingly, you are the usual standard (probably american) douchebag who thinks it's ok to kill and mutilate (and probably torture as well) all day long in rpgs but then you go haywire if there is just the tiniest bit of whatever other problematic stuff there is (in this case, a robot having a software induced Orgasm...oh nooo, the horror... :rolleyes:). You and your doublestandardy morals are really cute.

I don't know what fucked up campaigns you play and run at your table. Pretty much torture, mutilation and sexual assault are not the norm. Not at my tables and I can probably speak for many here and say they don't do run those topics. Not without vetting it with the group first. Maybe you like to engage in rape, torture, mutilation fantasies in your games and it's right to do so. Don't try and bullshit us by claiming that stuff is pretty standard at most tables. I'm actually Canadian and if you think I am a SJW then your even more clueless than you appear to be. This place is pretty much the opposite of what most SJW style rpg forums are. If you want to accuse of being SJWs simply with not agreeing with you that is on you not us.

Quote from: Anglachel;1125647As i said, Adam made mistakes. The biggest being not having a clear and decisive talk with his group before session 1. And then, yes, pretty completely not getting the "table"-vibes.
And lol...yeah, I'm not an Adam apologist. I have a lot of Schadenfreude atm because I really think that Koebel is too full of himself. I'm sure this is a very humbling experience for him. But i find the nerd-outrage out there just laughable. As said, hypocrits.
As if there are people who can judge what is ok at the table for all roleplayers ever :rolleyes:

I refuse to believe it was a mistake. For him to simply not do it was Adam trying to do it for shits and giggles and thinking his SJWs credential would be some kind of protection against him being a truly fucking idiot. He knew what he was doing and said "fuck it I'm doing it anyway". No one is not that stupid without going out of their way to behave that way.

Quote from: Anglachel;1125647As if there are people who can judge what is ok at the table for all roleplayers ever

Again most tables will tell you to get lost and hit the road if you come in and try to sexually assault another player character either as a DM or player.

Quote from: Anglachel;1125647And, you know, you also can proactively talk to your GM before session one. So if player A nerver ever wants to have anything to do in play with anything close to sexual, tell your GM. Why should all the responsibility be on the GM?

Should a player be proactive and tell the dM what they consider acceptable and not acceptable yes. Mostly it is on the DM because they are the ones who should be asking for feedback on what is acceptable for the group. Not shifting the responsibility to the players. Or to put it another way your the person running the game do your fucking job properly and ask the players what they want to see in a campaign.

Heh I always assumed some things are off the table.  Sexual assault, torture scenes, mutilation,etc.  I dont bother asking if that is okay with anyone because common decency makes me assume it is NOT ok with most people.  As a GM I would never have any of that stuff, and that is with the people i play with whom i have known all of them more than 30 years.

Quote from: RPGPundit;1125651Not just a supporter/promoter, it appears Fox had a business dealing with some capacity with Koebel, as an "influencer" to run his games.

First, hilarious that Fox needs to pay people to run his game.

Second, funny how everyone who's had a Metoo-esque scandal in the hobby is a business associate of Fox, huh? He was working with Zak S too.

  Maybe we should start a timer to see how long before he too is proven "legit" as a self avowed male feminist?

Quote from: oggsmash;1125663Heh I always assumed some things are off the table.  Sexual assault, torture scenes, mutilation,etc.  I dont bother asking if that is okay with anyone because common decency makes me assume it is NOT ok with most people.  As a GM I would never have any of that stuff, and that is with the people i play with whom i have known all of them more than 30 years.

Agreed and seconded.

Never in my entire rpg lifespan so to speak has anyone at any of the table I ran or played were any of the abpve allowed or even remotely considered an acceptable topics at the gaming table. For the same reason common decency and common sense with most people.

There's no shortage of official and third-party D&D monsters whose shtick involves rape. It disgusts me because it is so tasteless and exploitative. The standard half-orc backstory where all half-orcs are rape-babies makes me queasy. It's doubly ironic when these publishers claim to be progressive.

Quote from: RPGPundit;1125655Things appear to be getting worse for Adam "I'm a male feminist and people I call misogynists should be blacklisted" Koebel!

Unless his ex-girlfriend there de-anonymises, I doubt her revelations will make it into The Narrative.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1125669There's no shortage of official and third-party D&D monsters whose shtick involves rape. It disgusts me because it is so tasteless and exploitative. The standard half-orc backstory where all half-orcs are rape-babies makes me queasy. It's doubly ironic when these publishers claim to be progressive.

In dungeon fantasy for Gurps, they have a half ogre who they make sure to point out her dad liked his women big, so he married an ogre.   I never understood why they dont just remove half orcs and just make em orcs.

So I have no prior biases here (other than a vague irritation at constantly hearing about '-World' games...), and I've seen the actual play footage from TheQuartering, and the response from the player of Johnny (posted earlier in the thread).

I'd like to make a rather unusual observation. Not controversial, mind you, so you can relax.

I was having a rather hard time following the actual play event mostly because it was almost entirely Adam, the GM, talking. No real interaction with his players as he monologues through this long scene, which struck me as rather noteworthy.  If this wasn't a creepy sexual assault charged moment it would still have struck me as rather bad GMing on his part as it was very clearly something he wanted to do/have happen and he wasn't interested in engaging the players.  More on that in a bit...

This strikes me as a fundamental observation about the dynamics of RPGs. Player Characters are the default protagonists, teh actors rather than teh reactors of the setting. This isn't always entirely obvious, as many players are passive and reactive by nature and many GMs tend to assume the role of Actors in the setting for many understandable reasons (the GM is, by default, the most engaged player at the table, for example...).

While this certainly doesn't mean that everything in the game world is passively standing by waiting for the players to act (aren't they though? WHat's going on between sessions? Nearly universally: Nothing.), but in general the more the players are choosing to act, choosing their own destiny, the better off the game tends to be.  We have plenty of epithets for games where the player characters (and thus the players...) lack agency, such as Railroads... but do we really have any for games where the players have TOO MUCH agency?

So when the GM rambles on through a long ass (several minute) scene of an NPC doing something to a Player Character without really asking, or even pausing, to allow for any Player Feedback, its generally a bad example of GMing. Not one 'what do you do'? THe player is reduced to a passive participant, a mere witness to events happening to their character.

Add in the sexual aspect of it, and we have a perfect storm of shitty GMing, but honestly even stripped of that element, given the most banal of circumstances, that doesn't seem like a Table I'd like to sit at.

I've sat at plenty of tables where sexual 'themes' came into play. I've got a long standing anecdote of pulling into use a rulebook to reign my players in, in fact. This is the fundamental concept of 'Consent', if  you will... the players all consented to acting like randy teenagers and engaging in the most juvenile of play (and yes, sitting around a table with people talking about imaginary sex is very juvenile. Moreso at a mixed table where people who want to have sex can, in fact, just hook up... preferrably not at the table in the moment.  And yes, couples at the table are often terrible offenders in this juvenalia...).

In some regards I found 'Johnnys' idea of using the game table as a place to "learn to say no, especially to friends" to be utterly misguided and somewhat lamentable.  However, more to the point, her statement in that regards reveals a darker side to Adam's behavior. It wasn't that there was no 'session zero' discussion about what happened, its that he deliberately and consciously went against the very discussion that was had.    I believe it was also known that 'Johnny' had some unpleasant history in this regards (I'm no expert, I was just as happy not knowing who any of these people were...), thus doubling down (trippling?) on the wrongness.

To sum up:

As a GM, Adam essentially railroaded his player(s) into witnessing a scene in which they had no agency, no ability to act.
He chose to do this to a player that had explicitly stated a desire to have the opportunity to 'say no', and issues with trust.
He chose to do this to a player that (as far as I know/recall) already has some trauma regarding real-life sexual assault, and (misguided as it is) was attempting some sort of personal therapy via gaming
He chose to do this in as public venue as possible


I find it hard to believe he simply failed to 'read the room'. I absolutely cannot buy his blame shifting (which is of itself a example of DARVO, and therefore an indicator in its own right that this was malicious and deliberate).

I am made worse for knowing about any of this.