Is there anyone who has any specific sales numbers for Vampire (the oWoD version) vs. RIFTS?

I suppose  commonly accepted wisdom is that Vampire was the better selling game, the best selling RPG after D&D.  However, I'm left wondering what the sales figures for RIFTS have been over the course of its long history; I know that they must also be remarkably high, everyone and their cousin seems to have owned a copy of RIFTS at some time or another.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPunditIs there anyone who has any specific sales numbers for Vampire (the oWoD version) vs. RIFTS?

I don't have access to those figures now, though I have seen them*. For years, Vampire: The Masquerade and Rifts were constantly vying for the honor of beng the second best-selling RPGs of all time. IIRC, in 2004, neither of these games were in the top three -- Exalted and (I believe) GURPS 4e held the number two and number three positions, respectively.

And, in case your'e wondering, the figures that I was privy to were released by wholesalers (Alliance and Game Quarterly, respectively). Now, these numbers don't accurately reflect actual consumer purchases, though they do accurately represent retailer purchases and, thus, more accurately represent those consumer purchases than raw publisher data tends to.

*I do not have access to them at all, anymore, to clarify. It's not a matter of me simply not having them at hand.

That's very curious, I had NO WHERE heard that either Exalted or GURPS could have possibly in their wildest dreams beat either Vampire or RIFTS as far as sales.
 Well, maybe GURPS in all of its incarnations throughout its entire 25 year history might have. But seriously, GURPS 4e sold more than 100000 copies?! I'd be astounded if that were true, much less that it sold the multiples of that number that would probably be necessary to outrank either Vampire or RIFTS.

RPGpundit

I'd believe it .

 On the local level - people are taking more of a second look at GURPS - even when I shut my mouth and don't talk to them about it. World of Darkness and EXALTED have kind of plateaued out right now.


- Ed C.

Quote from: RPGPunditThat's very curious, I had NO WHERE heard that either Exalted or GURPS could have possibly in their wildest dreams beat either Vampire or RIFTS as far as sales.

I think you may have a wrong-headed idea about how wholesalers and retailers track and present figures based on the below. . .

QuoteBut seriously, GURPS 4e sold more than 100000 copies?! I'd be astounded if that were true, much less that it sold the multiples of that number that would probably be necessary to outrank either Vampire or RIFTS.

You seem to be talking about a running total of sales from the beginning of time (or the beginning of a game line, anyhow). Businesses track sales per fiscal quarter and per annum to guage product viability. While they may keep a running total of all sales, breaking down that running total per product or game line is totally inefficient.

The figures that I refer to where GURPS 4e and Exalted are concerned were quarterly numbers for (I believe -- again, drawing from memory here) the second quarter of 2004. And as far as I know, Vampire quickly regained its #2 position, with Exalted in a holding pattern at #3. That was the last I knew, around December-ish 2004.

I can easily imagine Exalted being in the top three, it's an enormously popular game. Hell, I still buy the sourcebooks even though I stopped using White Wolf's cludgy mechanics years ago, and know plenty of people who do the same.

What about Warhammer 2e? I'd heard it was number 2 worldwide, but that it was disregarded compared to Vampire or Exalted, because the bulk of its sales were outside the United States. And doesnt that German rpg, "the Dark Eye" have a huge player base? :raise:

QuoteAnd doesnt that German rpg, "the Dark Eye" have a huge player base? :raise:

Used to be 100.000- 300.000 players. Now it´s at 30.000 copies (over several years) of the latest editions floating around.

Adventure modules sell in the low thousands.

Yes, I was precisely talking about Total Units Sold, as in over the course of the history of the product.

You see, I'm trying to figure out which single game book/product was the bestselling of all time after D&D.  Conventional wisdom would suggest its Vampire, but I think it could be RIFTS.  I would be hardpressed to believe that it could possibly be anything else. There's no fucking chance that its Exalted or GURPS 4e, but I realize now that you weren't saying it was, you had misunderstood my original question and thought I was talking about "current sales right now".

RPGPundit

Quote from: SettembriniUsed to be 100.000- 300.000 players. Now it´s at 30.000 copies (over several years) of the latest editions floating around.

Adventure modules sell in the low thousands.

That's a DRAMATIC decrease. What happened?!

White wolf didn't start the "World Of Darkness" till the mid '90s - right?

 GURPS, combined 3rd and 4th editions might have it beat in total units because it started in 1985.

 Also, I still wonder if Exalted is really that "popular". More online folks talk about it than out in the 'real world" from what I can tell.


- Ed C.

Decrease? It's players vs. basic set. 30000 sets for 100000 players is a rather good average I'd say. The first run of the latest edition sold pretty well.

Quote from: RPGPunditYes, I was precisely talking about Total Units Sold, as in over the course of the history of the product.

There was a time when most publishers didn't keep track of this (as the warehouse full of unsold AD&D 1e product that WotC inherited bore witness to). I'm not entirely certain that this has changed, so if you're looking for those kind of numbers, you may just be out of luck.

The reason that we know D&D is the best-selling RPG of all time is because it has topped quarterly sales reports and annual sales reports for. . . well. . . ever. And in that light, I think it's a safe bet that Vampire is the number two best-seling RPG of all time.

RIFTS may very well be the third, though I'm 90% certain that it never held the #2 position long enough in annual or quarterly reports to qualify as the #2 best-selling RPG of all time. That said, I've never seen the reports from the 1980s or very early 1990s, so I may be wrong.

Quote from: KoltarWhite wolf didn't start the "World Of Darkness" till the mid '90s - right?

1991, with the release of Vampire: The Masquerade's first edition.

QuoteAlso, I still wonder if Exalted is really that "popular". More online folks talk about it than out in the 'real world" from what I can tell.

Only Vampire: The Requiem beats Exalted in sales for WWGS.

Quote from: Bradford C. WalkerOnly Vampire: The Requiem beats Exalted in sales for WWGS.

And can you tell me exactly how many units that is? Or at least what its print run was?

Does anyone else know what RIFTS print run total has been over the years?

RPGPundit