One of my concerns about Lion and Dragon was that RAW there's a very reasonable chance you'll have one character with a higher social standing than others, and the rules/settings are very strong about social standing. My concern was that this didn't sound fun at all.
I'm playing in a StarTrek 2d20 game right now and one of the characters is the XO and I'm the Science Officer. This means that to do anything it's a game of "mother may I" with the XO, who is nice enough but that is definitely not fun. StarTrek 2d20 has a rule where if whomever is in charge doesn't pick your character for an away mission, you get to play a short sheet character instead. So sometimes I'm extra lucky (and it's only been me so far) I get to play a security officer, so I have 2 layers of mother may I to report up to (the Security Chief player and the XO). I had this weird conversation where the GM asked me what my short sheet character was doing in Situation X and I was befuddled - I was doing whatever the Security Chief or XO told me to do. It's not like in the real world in the Army when a squad goes out individual soldiers randomly decide what to do.
I've worked for 40 years or so where i have jobs where I have to get permission for everything I do, and someone else is in charge of everything I do. Maybe if you've never had a job like this the above is super fun, but if you have it isn't. Maybe if you've only ever been independent or an artist or a teacher or something having to get permission from other players to do anything is fun but ...
I've played in Vampire LARPs and it's not really an issue there - yes you all report up to some power chain, but because it's a LARP most of the time you're wandering around in small groups doing your own thing, not sitting at a table together.
Quote from: PencilBoy99 on September 11, 2021, 12:36:32 PM
One of my concerns about Lion and Dragon was that RAW there's a very reasonable chance you'll have one character with a higher social standing than others, and the rules/settings are very strong about social standing. My concern was that this didn't sound fun at all.
I'm playing in a StarTrek 2d20 game right now and one of the characters is the XO and I'm the Science Officer. This means that to do anything it's a game of "mother may I" with the XO, who is nice enough but that is definitely not fun. StarTrek 2d20 has a rule where if whomever is in charge doesn't pick your character for an away mission, you get to play a short sheet character instead. So sometimes I'm extra lucky (and it's only been me so far) I get to play a security officer, so I have 2 layers of mother may I to report up to (the Security Chief player and the XO). I had this weird conversation where the GM asked me what my short sheet character was doing in Situation X and I was befuddled - I was doing whatever the Security Chief or XO told me to do. It's not like in the real world in the Army when a squad goes out individual soldiers randomly decide what to do.
I've worked for 40 years or so where i have jobs where I have to get permission for everything I do, and someone else is in charge of everything I do. Maybe if you've never had a job like this the above is super fun, but if you have it isn't. Maybe if you've only ever been independent or an artist or a teacher or something having to get permission from other players to do anything is fun but ...
I've played in Vampire LARPs and it's not really an issue there - yes you all report up to some power chain, but because it's a LARP most of the time you're wandering around in small groups doing your own thing, not sitting at a table together.
I've not played this, but doesn't Starfleet actually push officers and personnel to exercise some personal initiative? Is this baked into the game or is the GM being stupid?
I certainly can suggest things, but again it's permission for everything. It's not like on Star Trek when a problem comes up everyone wanders off and does their own thing and tells the Captain about it later.
I did a YT video on this topic.
Short version: I played a 2e D&D ( Fighter) squire to someone else's Paladin. The key was, you gotta have the right players to do it. Ones you trust. If so, it can be really cool. If not, it'll suck.
Part of it is the by in. If the point of the game is to play realistically then THAT hopefully is a fun aspect of the game and setting.
Medieval Society was so unlike the current world as it be alien. That is the entire point of Lion and Dragon. To be honest that is why so few people play it.
Our idea of fun isn't playing a authentic character of a medieval time period but one from a Heroic Fantasy series(to me). Real life sucks now and Sucked WAY more back then. I'm fine playing pretend Conan or Elric far more than pretend follower of a follower of a follower of a Lord I wouldn't dare Disagree with but probably never even speak to.
But i think some people do dig it playing like that. More power to em!
Quote from: PencilBoy99 on September 11, 2021, 01:12:25 PM
I certainly can suggest things, but again it's permission for everything. It's not like on Star Trek when a problem comes up everyone wanders off and does their own thing and tells the Captain about it later.
This is why when I ran Star Trek, the Captain and XO were NPCs and the PCs were told right at CharGen that they were going to be a team of specialists designated Away Team Alpha because the Captain, being a Vulcan, felt it was illogical to send the senior staff down to the surface of unknown worlds and potentially hostile situations.
The overall mission of the ship was to re-establish contact with colonies along the Cardassian border with whom contact was lost during the Dominion War and render what aid a single Intrepid-class starship was capable of. It was further established that, due to the losses during the Dominion War and reliance on an accelerated training program during the war to rush the training of combat related skills, but skip all the science/diplomacy that a second assignment of this ship was to serve as a hands-on training and evaluation program for junior officers.
This meant that for each mission the Captain would assign one of the PCs to be in charge and the team would be given general parameters, but were otherwise mostly left to themselves (though they could contact the ship at any time) for HOW they were going to accomplish the mission since the unstated part of each was that they were being evaluated for eventual promotions based on their performance.
It took them a few sessions to figure out that, because Starfleet and their Captain wants them to succeed, that if they had an idea that was reasonable and logical, they had the support of an entire starship standing by to assist them rather than necessarily having to do everything themselves (the first one to figure it out was the science officer who didn't have high ranks in the specific skill they needed to analyze something and called the ship to see if there was an expert in that skill aboard to do the analysis... there was and they were happy to do it and reported back promptly with the results which gave the PCs the info they needed to solve their present mystery and the Captain commended the team for turning to experts aboard ship to more efficiently resolve the mission and that's what they're literally there for).
Eventually the group settled into a pattern where one of the PCs naturally emerged as the team's leader and there was a fun rp party as the PC got promoted from ensign to lieutenant. So one of them did technically end up officially in charge, but by then everyone had settled into a role and the one in charge was really good about soliciting advice before giving in orders that everyone felt they had a say rather than that one player was bossing them around and because the NPC who gave the big orders was also a reasonable authority figure they didn't resent them either.
Quote from: PencilBoy99 on September 11, 2021, 12:36:32 PM
One of my concerns about Lion and Dragon was that RAW there's a very reasonable chance you'll have one character with a higher social standing than others, and the rules/settings are very strong about social standing. My concern was that this didn't sound fun at all.
I'm playing in a StarTrek 2d20 game right now and one of the characters is the XO and I'm the Science Officer. This means that to do anything it's a game of "mother may I" with the XO, who is nice enough but that is definitely not fun. StarTrek 2d20 has a rule where if whomever is in charge doesn't pick your character for an away mission, you get to play a short sheet character instead. So sometimes I'm extra lucky (and it's only been me so far) I get to play a security officer, so I have 2 layers of mother may I to report up to (the Security Chief player and the XO). I had this weird conversation where the GM asked me what my short sheet character was doing in Situation X and I was befuddled - I was doing whatever the Security Chief or XO told me to do. It's not like in the real world in the Army when a squad goes out individual soldiers randomly decide what to do.
I've worked for 40 years or so where i have jobs where I have to get permission for everything I do, and someone else is in charge of everything I do. Maybe if you've never had a job like this the above is super fun, but if you have it isn't. Maybe if you've only ever been independent or an artist or a teacher or something having to get permission from other players to do anything is fun but ...
I've played in Vampire LARPs and it's not really an issue there - yes you all report up to some power chain, but because it's a LARP most of the time you're wandering around in small groups doing your own thing, not sitting at a table together.
Not fun comes from simple bad role-playing. Best to find players that can role-play. Because Mother May I sucks balls.
Quote from: Chris24601 on September 11, 2021, 02:39:57 PM
Quote from: PencilBoy99 on September 11, 2021, 01:12:25 PM
I certainly can suggest things, but again it's permission for everything. It's not like on Star Trek when a problem comes up everyone wanders off and does their own thing and tells the Captain about it later.
This is why when I ran Star Trek, the Captain and XO were NPCs and the PCs were told right at CharGen that they were going to be a team of specialists designated Away Team Alpha because the Captain, being a Vulcan, felt it was illogical to send the senior staff down to the surface of unknown worlds and potentially hostile situations.
The overall mission of the ship was to re-establish contact with colonies along the Cardassian border with whom contact was lost during the Dominion War and render what aid a single Intrepid-class starship was capable of. It was further established that, due to the losses during the Dominion War and reliance on an accelerated training program during the war to rush the training of combat related skills, but skip all the science/diplomacy that a second assignment of this ship was to serve as a hands-on training and evaluation program for junior officers.
This meant that for each mission the Captain would assign one of the PCs to be in charge and the team would be given general parameters, but were otherwise mostly left to themselves (though they could contact the ship at any time) for HOW they were going to accomplish the mission since the unstated part of each was that they were being evaluated for eventual promotions based on their performance.
It took them a few sessions to figure out that, because Starfleet and their Captain wants them to succeed, that if they had an idea that was reasonable and logical, they had the support of an entire starship standing by to assist them rather than necessarily having to do everything themselves (the first one to figure it out was the science officer who didn't have high ranks in the specific skill they needed to analyze something and called the ship to see if there was an expert in that skill aboard to do the analysis... there was and they were happy to do it and reported back promptly with the results which gave the PCs the info they needed to solve their present mystery and the Captain commended the team for turning to experts aboard ship to more efficiently resolve the mission and that's what they're literally there for).
Eventually the group settled into a pattern where one of the PCs naturally emerged as the team's leader and there was a fun rp party as the PC got promoted from ensign to lieutenant. So one of them did technically end up officially in charge, but by then everyone had settled into a role and the one in charge was really good about soliciting advice before giving in orders that everyone felt they had a say rather than that one player was bossing them around and because the NPC who gave the big orders was also a reasonable authority figure they didn't resent them either.
I'm a fantasy kinda person; I've always liked fantasy way more than sci-fi. And I've never really been much of a Trek fan (Wars for me, thanks). But man, that campaign sounds like a fuckin' BLAST!!
Quote from: DM_Curt on September 11, 2021, 02:10:26 PM
I did a YT video on this topic.
Short version: I played a 2e D&D ( Fighter) squire to someone else's Paladin. The key was, you gotta have the right players to do it. Ones you trust. If so, it can be really cool. If not, it'll suck.
Greetings!
I agree, DM-Curt. I used to have a group composed entirely of US Marines. All of them were infantry beasts, just like myself. Besides me usually DMing, we typically had 4 to 8 Marines gathered around the table in the Quansun Hut that I was in charge of. Sometimes on the weekends we would have a few girls join us that played as well. Lots of metal music in the boom box, Tequila shots, and free-flowing beer. As well as good cigars, and for some, cigarettes. Couple fans blowing. During the campaign, I don't think anyone in the group ever had problems with following the leadership of the Squad Leader/Fighter, or the Paladin Nobleman, or the wise Wizard or Priest. Between campaign social rank and natural temperament, leaders emerged or otherwise suggested themselves immediately. Even the girls fell in line with getting with the program and following those in rank or status above them. Everyone really focused on making the adventuring group into a well-oiled war-machine. Not surprisingly, the group naturally organized the adventuring group into an ad-hoc Marine Squad. Typically having some Hirelings or Henchmen along to support the group, they were usually running about 15 people/characters.
Dragons, Giant Lairs, Bandit groups, evil wizard castles full of whip-wielding Nazi SS Succubi and mutant spawn, it was always a blast! I have seldom seen groups of civilian gamers that ran groups as strong and effectively, to be honest. The group's bloodlust, fanatical loyalty and morale to each other and the king and their religion, their absolute coordination of resources, constant use of tactics, and a zeal for mastering their class abilities/spells and gear brought them always to a fearsome and heroic proficiency in the campaign. Such fun times!
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
I had a similar problem running the old FASA Trek, esp since the player who got to play the captain wasn't a very brilliant tactician.
Then I tried running a game where the players were senior officers and the captain was an NPC. But the captain really was a 'voting booth' controlled collectively by the players. They could vote the captain to follow a command, and the most votes won (I think there was some sort of persuasion method, it was a long time ago). It worked well.
I've been both a player and a GM in the 2d20 Star Trek game and this problem never came up. The "Mother, may I?" idea wasn't in any part of the rulebook that I read either.
I suspect that this is a problem of the group or just the Captain's player. Some groups don't take well to the idea of any form of IC command structure and it seems like that's what is happening here.
Guess it's just a preference thing. I can't imagine why you'd spend your real life being told what to do and then in your hobby have some random person across the table telling you what to do. Just me I guess.
Ars Magica has a useful mechanic for this issue. The magicians are the bosses, and a typical party has magicians, companions, and grunts played by players. The thing is the characters change from adventure to adventure. On one you will be a boss magician, on another you'll be a companion. Magicians need a lot of downtime for their research/etc and time is enforced, so playing a magician all the time does not work well. So everyone gets a turn as boss. Never got to try it myself, but I've heard lots of folks say it's fun.
Quote from: Mishihari on September 12, 2021, 12:32:43 AM
Ars Magica has a useful mechanic for this issue. The magicians are the bosses, and a typical party has magicians, companions, and grunts played by players. The thing is the characters change from adventure to adventure. On one you will be a boss magician, on another you'll be a companion. Magicians need a lot of downtime for their research/etc and time is enforced, so playing a magician all the time does not work well. So everyone gets a turn as boss. Never got to try it myself, but I've heard lots of folks say it's fun.
I've played a fair bit of Ars Magica. I agree that the troupe-style play of alternating roles works well, and I've used it in a few other games as well.
In other historical / pseudo-historical games, though, I've more generally used the Pendragon approach - which is that all of the PCs are high status, like Pendragon's knights of the Round Table. Playing a bunch of commoners just sucks in most medieval settings.
Being part of a hierarchy can be fun. Gleeful misinterpretation of orders is fun. Sitting there watching those in charge flailing about is fun. After all, it's not your fault things are going to shit. It's the PC in charge. Then there's that time when they ask you to pull their ass out of the fire. 'Me sir? Oh, I couldn't possibly give sir advice on what to do?'
There is also the blast of playing in a definite chain of command. As SHARK pointed out, when you have your outfit, you follow orders and respect the specialists then it becomes frightening how far above your weight class you hit.
Then there's the fun of climbing the hierarchy. Rags to riches is much more fun when the odds are stacked against you...
I have a long running campaign where one of the characters is of much higher social standing than the others (he is a landed noble now, and before was noble with no large holdings) as well as independent income from his family holdings. I agree that in the middle ages social standing mattered a lot, just as it did in Imperial Rome. However, human nature and reality also lead to people being friends and to a degree ignoring these differences when removed from societal surroundings (adventuring for example). The noble is more or less the "leader" and he tends to let his people do what they do, the others do not show flagrant disrespect for him around others, especially nobles, and they largely benefit from "working" for him (gear, supplies, etc). I think the players matter for this sort of arrangement though, and I could not see a scenario where strangers who played together could make that work without a few ground rules.
The arrangement has led to some very interesting situations and role playing as well. Cimmerian Barbarians are often a bit willful and strike out on their own when the mood hits and the noble is entertaining gentry at banquets.
I am considering a campaign where the characters are part of a rogue trader crew (WH40K setting), but in that scenario, I do not know that I would be as comfortable allowing one of the players to actually be the captain, maybe a cousin or son of the captain who "must prove himself", but a rogue trader captain in many cases has as much or more power than a literal king of a powerful nation, and I do not know that my players would be ready for that sort of game right out of the box. I might have some very loose chain of command, but more similar to a junior officer learning his business from senior enlisted types, rather than a captain and crew.
I played in a military sci-fi campaign where every player controlled at least three characters. One character was the command group if the ship: CO, XO, Chief Engineer, Security Officer, Ops, etc, one char was a marine, and one was part of the crew. It worked out really well where everyone got to get to be in charge for a bit.
Perhaps this playstyle could work with Lion & Dragon as well where every player creates one noble character (you would have to make that automatic instead of rolling for it) and the other characters would be freemen and serfs. The rules actually suggest that you create several characters anyhow. Not sure about playing them all at once however.
Quote from: WillyDJ on September 12, 2021, 05:50:11 AM
Being part of a hierarchy can be fun. Gleeful misinterpretation of orders is fun. Sitting there watching those in charge flailing about is fun. After all, it's not your fault things are going to shit. It's the PC in charge. Then there's that time when they ask you to pull their ass out of the fire. 'Me sir? Oh, I couldn't possibly give sir advice on what to do?'
There is also the blast of playing in a definite chain of command. As SHARK pointed out, when you have your outfit, you follow orders and respect the specialists then it becomes frightening how far above your weight class you hit.
Then there's the fun of climbing the hierarchy. Rags to riches is much more fun when the odds are stacked against you...
The old game Space 1889 (not the newer Savage Worlds version, I know nothing about that one except it made some setting changes for no seeming reason) had characters be Victorian brits by default and would give characters with a high Social Class a servant, while giving characters with low social class and a servant career an upper-class twit boss who they could bamboozle into funding their various misadventures.
This was a similar problem for the old Fantasy Wargaming RPG. Similar idea as Lion & Dragon would take decades later. Except wanted to be a low to no-fantasy RPG. Or so it claimed. But then added gods, demons, and monsters from the old books. While spitting on and demeaning everyone else. REALLY hated the writing and the designers.
But same set-up really. Higher standing PCs held the lives of the lower standing PCs in their hands practically.
As others have commented.
These sorts of campaigns for any era where there is a command hierarchy are completely dependent in the players being on board for this. Otherwise it can and very often will be very not fun for one or more of the lower echelon players.
On the flip side I've had players literally group designate one player to be the leader and call the shots. Usually whomever was either good at tacticals and managing a group, or was good at diplomacy and negotiations.
But any RPG where the players are bound into chains of command is going to make or break by how on board the players are for this. And some are just going to either relegate the upper echalons to NPCs. Or toss chain of command out the window ASAP.