Quote from: The Butcher;627932Can we please stop feeding the fucking trolls?

I mean, how much more clear does Gleichbot have to make it that he has absolutely no intentions of holding an honest conversation with anyone here? He's decided that sandboxes are Teh Badwrong and like a retarded elf-pretending Terminator he will not stop at minor obstacles like entirely missing the point of the hobby and the workings of human nature and imagination.

He makes Frank Trollman sound like a human being for fuck's sake.

No fucking shit.

I really wish people would stop talking to him. It feeds his idiotic idea that he has anything of value to say.

Whatever, this thread has stopped serving the purpose I'd intended. I'm as much at fault for that as anyone. Maybe I'll start another one when I have more time to pay attention to it. I did plan on eventually discussing some theoretical observations, but I didn't want them to get in the way of data gathering.

Brian might take this as a bit patronizing, but I think it's easy to tell which parts of what he says are opinion ("that sucks") or pure definition ("that is not a sandbox"), and which parts are theory ("if you do X, then Y will happen").

The opinions are Brian's and there's no point arguing them, the definitions may or may not be idiosyncratic but you only need to use them to understand what Brian's saying. I've usually found the theory to be solid, given Brian's preferences.

Quote from: Black Vulmea;627910+ 1 Wisdom.

QFT

Quote from: estar;627921I will make it simple you run King's Quest, I run Ultima III.

HA.  Well-played, sirrah.

------

I have yet another example (no blogpost this time, haha).  

So, our Monday group (my "main game", FR 1e sandbox) had two players out this week (work overflow from the Class 5 Killstorm that hit New England last week), and since we stopped RIGHT in the middle of a (relatively close) ongoing engagement the week before, it was agreed to put things on hold until next Monday. Which begged the question of "ok, what DO we play?"  The answer came back "Traveller", which suited me just fine.

To date, I have run exactly one session of Traveller, which... kind of fizzled.  (An observation I have made:  D&D players that mainly play D&D are used to being on the clock.  Waiting around means the DM starts rolling dice to try and kill you, and they tend to want to be doing SOMETHING every waking hour.  Space games, on the other hand, tend to have LOTS of "down time" in transit, and if the party owns their own ship, it's in an "unsupervised environment" (no cops), which makes it even more tempting to try and get away with something, ANYTHING while nobody's looking.)  It was a learning experience, but the upside was that I still had all the prepwork done.

I'm using the Judges Guild sectors, which (save the areas covered in the handful of modules set there) are gloriously undetailed.  Picked a starting area to detail - in this case, the cluster of stars around Tancred in the Outreaumer and Matarshan Federation subsectors of Ley Sector.  (A lovely feature about starting Trav campaigns, I'm noticing, is that if the PCs only have a Jump-1 ship to start, their movements are restricted to a pretty manageable area.)  Took a few notebook pages to spell out the particulars of each world in that cluster (just spelling out what the UPP codes told me, in plain language), and jotted down any notes that came to me in response.  (Example:  There are a few "captive governments" in this area, and I took a second to decide who, exactly, held the reins.)

One of the group (actually a new player, a frequent houseguest who'd played a bit of AD&D in high school and who always lookie-loos when he's over) was looking over the sector map beforehand, and decided that [x star] was his goal, so the group had a direction.  Since I was running chargen on the spot, I wouldn't know what kind of group we'd have, so I picked a couple of jobs from 76 Patrons just in case, but (as expected) nobody started with a ship, so the group's first task was "get off this shitty planet we started on".  I actually had an answer for that, a captain with a Type-R Far Trader looking to hire on crew.  (As it happened, all the PCs had saleable skills in this area.)  Aaaand that led right into the "crashed ship/pyramid" adventure from the Traveller Book, bulked out with a bunch of engineering craziness and getting everybody familiar with the system, which got them right on the cusp of actually entering the pyramids before we called the session, which now gives me at least another session to lay detail out ahead of the players.  From there, we're off and running.

I am hoping to have time later to pass on the example of my second chapter of my igbarians.

Estar reminded me of it, and it was set up to add a lot of time sensitive stuff with a plague of undeath sent by an ancient Vampyre the PCs released form bondage.  It wasn't the start of the campaign, but it might as well have been since it threw everyt thing PCs knew into flux, and could easily have been a new start.

Quote from: Elliot Wilen;627949I did plan on eventually discussing some theoretical observations

If you do and wish it, I'd be willing to talk about how things work in my campaigns.

Just shoot me a line and point me at the thread as I tend to assume that no one wants to hear about my games by default.

@Elliot:

I've started each sandbox campaign with an agreed on premise:

"Rumors of a strange, lonely tower, long abandoned by it's wizard inhabitant, have brought you out onto this distant moor..."

(or)

"The players start as bold vikings arriving on a frozen, northern island, to explore a ruined alien city..."

Once the first session is done, sure, now the player-driven aspect of the campaign moves front and center and it starts to feel like a sandbox.  We usually end each session with them recapitulating some ideas on where they might go next time, based on the events we just played.

Note:  having an out-of-game conversation with the players, while pitching the premise for the first game and starting point, is fine for kicking off a game.  It's pragmatic to share some notes about the premise, what kind of characters make sense, and so on.

There - trying to get this a bit back on-topic.

Quote from: Beedo;627975We usually end each session with them recapitulating some ideas on where they might go next time, based on the events we just played.

I try to do this as well. A lot of time I have players come to me after a game and go "Hey Rob so you know, We/I am going to do X. I wanted to let you know so you can be prepared."

Quote from: The Butcher;627932Can we please stop feeding the fucking trolls?

I mean, how much more clear does Gleichbot have to make it that he has absolutely no intentions of holding an honest conversation with anyone here? He's decided that sandboxes are Teh Badwrong and like a retarded elf-pretending Terminator he will not stop at minor obstacles like entirely missing the point of the hobby and the workings of human nature and imagination.

He makes Frank Trollman sound like a human being for fuck's sake.

Either Ignore List the fucker or have the decency to not waste our bandwidth with these pathetic quote arguments.

Another thread. Ruined by the gleckmung.

EDIT: I can understand if you're a gentleman that's trying to have a good faith discussion with him regarding his criticisms, but seriously, look at the fucking balloon juice he keeps pissing back in your faces.

Katbox the cocksucker.

I always love these types of debates.

If you have more of a story going on is it a railbox?  If there is a less story with more freedom is it a sandroad?

I think the whole issue between sandbox and railroad is just another way of limiting yourself.

For the OP.

If you didn't know it was the middle of the day, the dark skies would make you think it was midnight. Black clouds fill your vision from horizon to horizon. Even looking out the manor's windows, you can barely see the porch, let alone the walkway. The manor itself sits on a high hill, overlooking most of Yunt, on a clear day. Ancient statues, torn from crumbling temples, adorn the gardens in haphazard fashion. The manor itself is large for someone of the Collector's means. Eight bedrooms, a library, two kitchens, and a plethora of storage rooms take up the space. Snow hisses against glass windows as lightening forks across the skies. It should feel ominous, but all you can focus on is the scene before you.
    One of the collector's guards, a female Oread, sprawls across the threshold of the main hall, a lone island amongst a sea of red that is too large to be from one person. Limbs askew, back upon the floor, her eyes stare at the heavy front door as if waiting for someone to enter. Her throat has been slashed, sharp long strokes that appear to be from claws and yet are not jagged enough for an animal attack. Her uniform, clean and unwrinkled save for where the blood soaks into it, seems new. A knife and sword are belted to her waist. Both are made of the best metal, with gold etching in the hilts, and both are peace-tied.
    Further back, the Collector's chamberlain Desmun Ashe sits upon a large staircase, his head resting against the rails as if he is taking a nap. His throat too has been slashed. But above the highest cut is evidence of a puncture wound in his jugular. Unlike the guard, there is little blood surrounding Desmun. Most of it is dried and crusted upon his throat, but it is not nearly enough to account for what he would have carried within him. Dressed in the finest silk and linen clothing, Desmun wears expensive rings on every finger (some of them carrying minor enchantments), a heavy gold medallion, and several gemstones in his ears. Not a single item appears to have been removed from him. One might wonder why if it weren't for the third ... body.
    To call it a body is to be kind, for it is more like pieces of a body than an actual corpse. The hands are recognizably Vishkanya. Across the room, the boots are well-fitted to the feet that inhabit them, proof that the wearer can afford a decent cobbler. But the boots are worn along the toes and heels, with a side seam gaping open, and caked with mud. The clothing, what's left of it, is recognizably upper middle class. But again, dirt adorns the cuffs and hems, and the smell of mold seems embedded in the fabric. The torso, separate from both hands and feet, lies in a puddle of mud and blood with several stab wounds in the front, back, and sides. The head is nowhere to be seen.
    Someone really didn't like this man... assuming the vishkanya is male. It's rather hard to tell without removing the clothing.

That was how the campaign started.
I gave that out to the players when we made characters, asking them to get back to me before the next session on how this relates to their character and why their character is there.

Quote from: Sommerjon;628103That was how the campaign started.
I gave that out to the players when we made characters, asking them to get back to me before the next session on how this relates to their character and why their character is there.

And that's all? Nothing about what the campaign goals and coverage would be? Nothing about suggested character types? Nothing about player responsibilities?

Quote from: gleichman;628105And that's all?

Pretty much.

Quote from: gleichman;628105Nothing about what the campaign goals and coverage would be?

Not really.
Why give them the temptation to 'game' something like that?

Quote from: gleichman;628105Nothing about suggested character types?

Nope.  They are all mature enough to not be asshats.

Quote from: gleichman;628105Nothing about player responsibilities?

I have my gaming 'manifesto' already up on our local forums.

Quote from: Sommerjon;628103If you have more of a story going on is it a railbox?  If there is a less story with more freedom is it a sandroad?

Sandbox vs railroad is a meta-game issue. Not what the campaign is about.

For example The Lord of the Rings campaign could be run as a railroad.

Or it could be a sandbox with the same character and same initial situation as what Tolkien described in his books.

The difference is depends on whether the referee is willing to let the players set the course of the campaign (sandbox) or intends to use gm fiat to setup where the players go next (railroad) regardless of their actions. Hence it is a meta-game issue.

Quote from: Sommerjon;628120Pretty much.

Quite different from my experience. Thanks for the answers.

Quote from: estar;628132For example The Lord of the Rings campaign could be run as a railroad.

Or it could be a sandbox with the same character and same initial situation as what Tolkien described in his books.

Lord of the Rings could not be ran as a Sandbox*


*ADD: That is, not if one is actually interested in running a simulation of Middle Earth, you can always run a silly Middle Earth in name only, which like all most people could manage anyway.

Quote from: gleichman;627683If you punish your PCs for turning down your plot hooks, I don't see how you can in any meaningful call your campaign a sandbox.

A field of tar babies perhaps. Sandbox, no.

If you repeatedly turn down opportunities to go to the dentist, it is in no way a violation of causality that your tooth should rot.

In a sandbox, choosing to do nothing is still a free choice.  The only difference is that consequences are based on in-world cause-and-effect rather than some kind of notion of what is "literary genius".

Of course, I figure you don't do either. You just set up the pieces and have fights and move around mechanically because you're incapable of understanding human motivations.

RPGPundit