Quote from: Elliot Wilen;627007Thanks. All that is very useful in general, but here I'm looking specifically for the method used to get the PCs started in the campaign. Point is, something or someone needs to set things in motion: I'd like to know who or what that is, and how it works. After things are in motion, I think it gets easier. Or at least, that's a different topic.

To add to my earlier answers, what I generally do this.

• I will ask the group what kind of campaign want they to play.*
• I will then ask each player individually what kind of character they want to play in general terms.
• I will then work with each player to craft the details of their background to fit it in the background. I will also manipulate this process to give natural reasons for the party to be together.
• After all that is done. I will then prepare the campaign notes and the initial adventure using the character backgrounds as the template so that the party comes together naturally without the whole "you meet in a tavern" stereotype.

Because the players signed on to the type of campaign from the get go generally they slant their roleplaying to that the party winds up together. Generally the way the backgrounds wind up it often winds up making more sense for the party to be together than not.

By natural reason I meant that if you were standing in the setting looking on what the players were doing it would make perfect sense. This fits into main rule of playing my campaign. "Play your character as if he or she were actually there."

Also note the background are not all that involved and amount to little more than a paragraph or two of notes. In fact it is likely you are already doing what I am doing in the course of normal banter prior to the start of the campaign. The only difference is that I created a formal list of steps I try to remember to go through.

I do have an exception for this for the game store campaigns I run where player hop in and out from week to week. In that case I am more heavy handed about the details. I still ask the player what he want his background to be but then I will manipulate it so that the player has a semi-good reason for showing up at that point in the campaign. I usually come up with a couple of alternatives for the player to choose from.  Most folks seem to be happy with this and go with it.

Quote from: Elliot Wilen;627007I'll violate my initial request by doing a bit of theorizing: the system or setting itself could set things in motion. E.g., event tables could generate something to which the PCs must react, or rules for personal upkeep could mean that PCs will have a net negative cash flow if they don't do anything, which of course would goad them into action.

Since we are talking about human referees running a session in real-time. good random table are very helpful in making the setting more alive and life is not totally at the whim of a single individual. The random encounter with the drunk gave Kermit's final encounter with the Elder a level of nuance it otherwise wouldn't have.

Now what going to be interesting for the next phase of the campaign that a lot of it will be driven by random encounters with patrons of their crossroads tavern.

Posting before I read.

Here's a couple blog posts about what we're doing, these days:

On my DM map, and getting the 'crawl off and running:
http://mightythews.blogspot.com/2012/03/update-on-not-having-any-updates.html

On the player map:
http://mightythews.blogspot.com/2012/09/hex-crawling-in-style.html

The premise for this campaign is what I'd describe as the oft-excluded middle of the railroad/sandbox dialogue - a focused sandbox.  In other words, we started with a premise (and a module, in my case), which gives the whole thing a push in the right direction (i.e., any direction), and from there the players are left to their own devices.

In this case, I used N5 Under Illefarn, which provides you with local wilderness detail, a premise (that the PCs are militiamen, and are being given routine missions at first), and a base town (a rather well-done one, I'd say).  Worth noting that the module (and by extension the campaign) dispenses with the Basic/Expert paradigm of "dungeon first, wilderness later", but provides the players with the possibility of reinforcements (fellow militiamen) and - most importantly - horses (i.e., the ability to RUN AWAY reliably if things get too hairy).  (I drove this lesson home the first time out - the party encountered a hunting manticore which killed an NPC militiaman and his mount in the first round, and the group got the message right away, to their credit.  They left the beast munching on the redshirt.)   The PCs go on a few jaunts into the wilderness before events conspire to require a dungeon crawl.

Now, let's be clear:  There is a strong motivation to crawl that dungeon.  (Failing to do so pretty much spells doom for the town, and a wild elf community besides.)  Prior to that, the party's membership in the militia is non-optional (if they want to keep living in Daggerford).  That said, at any point they can throw up their hands and take off.  (They nearly did, a few times.)  And there's the thing:  The choice is always there, and (ideally) should always have consequences - the difference is a DM who's willing to DEAL with those consequences, rather than herding wayward players back on the plotwagon.  In my case at least one of the PCs had family in Daggerford, which would've made abandoning the town to its fate a complicated decision.  (Always decisions, always consequences.)

Presuming the PCs "solve" the dungeon (which doesn't require clearing it out, but does have a certain "you must be this tall to ride" requirement for PC power), they'll end up around 3rd-4th level - just about ready to explore the larger setting on their own.  Which is where they've been for a while, now (they spent a few weeks in-game travelling back and forth between Daggerford and Waterdeep, and now they've just returned to finally clear out that first dungeon for keeps).  All this time, I've been dropping hooks for one thing or another (some for locations - dungeons, wilderness areas, etc. - some for events - cult performing dark rituals, war between barbarian tribes, and such).  More than the players can possibly investigate at once, so they've got to (again) make choices.  And all the while, getting there is half the fun (since they're traveling a moderately-detailed wilderness, they can poke around and chew the scenery as much as they like - of course, sometime the scenery chews back).

And that's how I do the sandbox thing.  Not the only way by a long shot, but it works for me.

Addendum:  I should note that the city portion of this campaign has represented probably half our table time, and this was more or less all player-driven.  The players had bought a few barrels of beer on the cheap in Daggerford, with intentions to sell it at a profit in Waterdeep (using trade tables adapted from GAZ11 Republic of Darokin, which are themselves adapted from Traveller) - only somehow they decided once they got there to open up a pub, themselves.  So that was the main focus for some time (dealing with city officials, buying a property, cleaning it up for use).  

During all this play, I made heavy use of Midkemia Cities' encounter tables, which are both comprehensive and awesome.  In particular, there is a nifty little mission generator in the back (with a bare-bones "noun verb noun" structure - "person" wants you to "verb" the "thing or person" kind of stuff) that provided lots of meat when the players were looking for a job.

Quote from: Elliot Wilen;626948How have you kickstarted a campaign? I would like to have a conversation with real accounts, not hypotheticals, and focused on so-called "sandbox" or "hexcrawl" campaigns. I think it's common to say that these campaigns "take on a life of their own" once the PCs start interacting with the gameworld, generating consequences from their actions and forming relationships. But how did your campaign start--what set things in motion?

What I never do is to start the game off with "You are in [Place] - now, what do you want to do?".

Normally, I give some of the background, not a lot to start off with, then have an introductory scenario that uses one small place from the sandbox. As part of that scenario, I might have the PCs go somewhere else, or hint at another place. After a couple of scenarios, they tend to find their feet and start doing what they want.

In our current campaign, the PCs were members of a street gang in Pavis and the first scenario involved setting them against a rival gang. The second involved helping a merchant while the dust settled from their gang encounter and they went around Prax for a while. Now, six years later in real time, they are about to resurrect Tada, a long dead deity, and will probably play a leading role in the Hero Wars in Prax.

Another example, another blog post:

http://mightythews.blogspot.com/2013/02/in-search-of-adventure-young-lord.html

This is an RC Basic campaign, and we ARE (in theory) following the "dungeon then wilderness" formula, for the time being.  Basically, with B1-9 providing a loose structure (and alterations to taste), I set the guys up in the base town (Threshold), and explicitly (out of character) told them that they could fish for rumors at the tavern.  (This is starting to become standard practice for some of the players - we've got several that have been playing for less than a year - while others don't need to be told.)  They dropped some coin on drinks, got an idea of what was going on, and then talked over which lead they wanted to follow.

Notably in this game, I used GAZ1's background tables, which gave the players something outside race/class/alignment to base their decisions on.  It only amounts to "social status, national background, and hometown", but it definitely weighed into their choices.

For the time being, we'll be glossing over any travel that takes place (all the adventure locations are either close by, or can be reached by caravan), but I'm laying groundwork for full-fledged Expert Set hexcrawl already.

D&D Sandbox (Proto-ACKS): I announced that we'd be playing sandbox old-school D&D. I asked everyone to roll up a 1st level adventurer and started them at Keep in the Borderlands, essentially as written - you've come to the frontiers in search of gold and glory, go!

Oriental Adventurers Sandbox: I decided we'd play in a sandbox Miyama province (from Swords of the Daimyo) using ACKS rules. I had each player roll up their character prior to the session. I then worked with each player to establish starting relationships between them, and a reason for why they'd begin in the starting town. For the ronin-type characters, this was a matter of making them knight errants. For example, the Kensai was on a "warrior's pilgrimage" and had heard there was need for swordsmen in the area. For the servant-style characters, this was a matter of giving them an extended assignment. For example, the Shukenja was sent by his shrine to investigate reports of malefic spirits, and the Sohei was there to guard him. The first "hook" was a peasant whose village was under attack by an oni. Given the good alignment of the party members and their various motivations, it led to adventurer from there.

Arabian Nights Sandbox: I decided we'd play ACKS in a desert setting. I began the campaign using the old TSR adventure "The Lost City". The players all rolled up their characters prior to the session. I then worked with each player to establish a reason why they'd be in a desert caravan. The opening of the adventure was the desert caravan getting hit by a sand storm; the PCs were ("by Fate") cut off from the caravan together and stumbled upon the Lost City. They didn't know each other until the sandstorm struck, except superficially as people they'd seen in the caravan. However, Arabian nights style characters tend to believe strongly in fate and predestination, so the players role-played it in this manner; they called their adventuring party "The Fated" and decided they'd been brought together for a reason.

Thus, in each of the three, the campaign has begun with a railroad to get them into the sandbox. Groups who favor more Judge-player responsibility sharing might prefer to handle this more interactively at some meta-game level rather than with an opening railroad. But in my group I generally write the campaigns and inform everyone what we're going to play, so simply tossing everybody into the sandbox as quickly as possible works well for us.

(I suppose a player who began Session 1 by saying "my character leaves the sandbox" would be asked to roll up a new character who'd like to stay in the sandbox and/or would be told "see you next campaign".)

I ran a Cyberpunk 2020 sandbox game last year.

At the beginning, the 3 players generated two characters each (a main character and a backup in case the main character died; this was a suggestion by one of the players - my reputation as a harsh GM goes before me).

I then put the names of the 3 main characters in a hex each, in the middle of a hex map, and had them make up 3 NPCs each who their characters knew well. They then had to write the names of those NPCs in the hexes neighbouring their character. This created a web of relationships between PCs and NPCs, because each character in each hex was connected to those next to it.

I also had a list of about 20-30 additional NPCs in the area with specific roles, so that if they asked me "Do I know somebody who can jury rig a boat?" (or whatever) I could have them roll a streetwise or streetdeal check to see if they did, and supply them with a name.

Then, I told them to get on with making money. They immediately began contacting their sources looking for work. I randomly generated jobs using what I call a Random Mr Jones Mission Generator. It all snowballed from there.

Quote from: amacris;627186D&D Sandbox (Proto-ACKS): I announced that we'd be playing sandbox old-school D&D. I asked everyone to roll up a 1st level adventurer and started them at Keep in the Borderlands, essentially as written - you've come to the frontiers in search of gold and glory, go!

Oriental Adventurers Sandbox: I decided we'd play in a sandbox Miyama province (from Swords of the Daimyo) using ACKS rules. I had each player roll up their character prior to the session. I then worked with each player to establish starting relationships between them, and a reason for why they'd begin in the starting town. For the ronin-type characters, this was a matter of making them knight errants. For example, the Kensai was on a "warrior's pilgrimage" and had heard there was need for swordsmen in the area. For the servant-style characters, this was a matter of giving them an extended assignment. For example, the Shukenja was sent by his shrine to investigate reports of malefic spirits, and the Sohei was there to guard him. The first "hook" was a peasant whose village was under attack by an oni. Given the good alignment of the party members and their various motivations, it led to adventurer from there.

Arabian Nights Sandbox: I decided we'd play ACKS in a desert setting. I began the campaign using the old TSR adventure "The Lost City". The players all rolled up their characters prior to the session. I then worked with each player to establish a reason why they'd be in a desert caravan. The opening of the adventure was the desert caravan getting hit by a sand storm; the PCs were ("by Fate") cut off from the caravan together and stumbled upon the Lost City. They didn't know each other until the sandstorm struck, except superficially as people they'd seen in the caravan. However, Arabian nights style characters tend to believe strongly in fate and predestination, so the players role-played it in this manner; they called their adventuring party "The Fated" and decided they'd been brought together for a reason.

Thus, in each of the three, the campaign has begun with a railroad to get them into the sandbox. Groups who favor more Judge-player responsibility sharing might prefer to handle this more interactively at some meta-game level rather than with an opening railroad. But in my group I generally write the campaigns and inform everyone what we're going to play, so simply tossing everybody into the sandbox as quickly as possible works well for us.

(I suppose a player who began Session 1 by saying "my character leaves the sandbox" would be asked to roll up a new character who'd like to stay in the sandbox and/or would be told "see you next campaign".)

I don't know if, from my perspective, I'd call any of these a "sandbox" save the OA game, from what you're describing - B4 Lost City, in particular, has a premise that precludes this sort of play explicitly (since they can't leave, by default).  It's altogether possible there's just something going on I don't see, though.  (And not to say that they're bad campaign premises, as such - just that they seem a bit too focused to call a "sandbox", with the player choice implicit in that style.)  Is there a wilderness outside the Keep, or a means to explore the desert around the Lost City?

Quote from: noisms;627187I ran a Cyberpunk 2020 sandbox game last year.

I attempted this, and immediately hit the wall with prep - I started to detail a neighborhood, but school and other games pulled the rug right out from under me.  One of these days, I'll get back to it.

QuoteI randomly generated jobs using what I call a Random Mr Jones Mission Generator. It all snowballed from there.

Stealing this.  (Thanks!)

Quote from: DestroyYouAlot;627194I attempted this, and immediately hit the wall with prep - I started to detail a neighborhood, but school and other games pulled the rug right out from under me.  One of these days, I'll get back to it.



Stealing this.  (Thanks!)

No Cyberpunk 2020 game is complete without a random Mr Jones mission generator.

Cyberpunk 2020 is perfect for sandbox play provided you make sure the players understand, at the outset, that they are supposed to be career criminals. If you do that, they'll immediately begin planning heists, kidnappings, assassination attempts and smuggling operations, and all you have to do is sit back and watch it all unfold.

Quote from: amacris;627186Thus, in each of the three, the campaign has begun with a railroad to get them into the sandbox.

I disagree that it was a railroad. You established an initial context which is important for the players in order to make informed decisions. This is vital for igniting a sandbox campaign.

The forums (enworld, rpg.net) are filled with accounts of failed sandbox campaigns and from subsequent inquires the common elements most of these campaign shared was the referee placing the players somewhere and giving them little information other to say "go forth and be free!".

The type of gamer that can thrive with that kind of starting point is smaller. Most players don't like feeling like they are throwing darts in the dark, an initial context gives them a foundation from which they can make informed decisions at the start of the campaign.

It doesn't have to be elaborate, a paragraph of material will suffice for many. But it needs to be there or the chances of the campaign failing will be great.

What makes a sandbox campaign a sandbox is the referee's lack of preconceived notion on how the campaign will go. That the players are free to choose any course of action for their character and willing to abide by the consequences good or bad.

For example in the initial phases of the mercenary campaign I am currently running, Captain Jonas Hawkwood gave the groups mission to execute. These missions were part generated from the interested expressed by the character when they were interviewed by Hawkwood, partly by Hawkwood goals, party by the Count of Shodan's goal (Hawkwood's employer), and finally a liberal dose of rolling on a random table to account for the crazy shit life sometimes throws at you.

By their own choice the players used the proceeds of a successful exploration of some ruins they found to buy out their contract and head north to join the Brotherhood of Wyrm.

Now that they have their portion of a King's Ransom they are leaving the mercernary business and going to open a tavern.

None of which I planned or conceived prior to the campaign's start. However I do have background events to give the setting a life of its own. This is effective in giving the players a sense they are part of a larger world and makes their achievements the sweeter as they see the ripples of their actions spread.

I started three different sandbox games as pbp games.

The first one was set in the Wilderlands. I randomized a starting location and we ended up in the Southern Reaches. I had the party start as young teens running away from their village after finding out that their elders had slight 'Wickerman' tendencies.

Second game used the outdoor survival hexmap. The map was a new world with a single colony city. The players had come from the old world where the young Prince had just been poisoned and usurped by a Grand Vizier. So the single city on the east coast was the base of operations for exploration of the new world. I seeded the map with various modules, and had exploration missions available from the city, plus political seeds/conflcit with the empire back in the homeworld

Third game used Rob's Blackmarsh setting. Blackmarsh had been cut off from the rest off the world and the party were exploring it for an (off map) empire. Various factions within the empire had different agendas they wanted the party (or individual party members) to pursue.

Quote from: noisms;627210No Cyberpunk 2020 game is complete without a random Mr Jones mission generator.

Cyberpunk 2020 is perfect for sandbox play provided you make sure the players understand, at the outset, that they are supposed to be career criminals. If you do that, they'll immediately begin planning heists, kidnappings, assassination attempts and smuggling operations, and all you have to do is sit back and watch it all unfold.

Not necessarily career criminals, but yes, Cyberpunk 2020 is tailor made for sandbox experiences. One of my friends from back-in-the-day in France created an alternate near-future double of the town we used to live in, complete with Blade Runner references, shanty towns and the like, upper districts which were corporation controlled etc etc and it was an absolute blast. Total sandbox before "sandbox" was a thing (we're talking like 1991-2 or some such).

Quote from: Elliot Wilen;626948How have you kickstarted a campaign? I would like to have a conversation with real accounts, not hypotheticals, and focused on so-called "sandbox" or "hexcrawl" campaigns. I think it's common to say that these campaigns "take on a life of their own" once the PCs start interacting with the gameworld, generating consequences from their actions and forming relationships. But how did your campaign start--what set things in motion?

I'm especially hoping to hear from Black Vulmea because of this excellent series of articles:

http://black-vulmea.blogspot.com/2012/02/swashbucklers-sandbox-part-i.html
http://black-vulmea.blogspot.com/2012/02/swashbucklers-sandbox-part-2.html
http://black-vulmea.blogspot.com/2012/02/swashbucklers-sandbox-part-3.html
http://black-vulmea.blogspot.com/2012/02/swashbucklers-sandbox-part-4.html

I bought the Holmes boxed set when it came out and my friends and I started playing it.

We didn't use a sandbox, but we did use a kitchen table. I stocked up module B1, a lot of characters died, a lot of monsters were killed and a lot of loot was taken (and so much fun was had by all we kept going deeper into the dungeon till we'd gone down 13 levels).

We had to make up most of the game, new spells, a town, a wilderness around the dungeon. The Holmes rulebook only went so far and we didn't have access to any other modules.

One of my friends liked drawing maps and we came up with our own setting. All this was easy to do because we didn't have any other choices. A couple of us wanted to write our own books so we became the DM's and ran adventures in our fantasy world (which stole heavily from every fantasy book we'd ever read).

Looking back I wish I'd never seen anything but that Holmes boxed set. It was all that was needed and I had a great time coming up with rules and spells and adventures, much more fun than adventuring in someone else's campaign no matter how well crafted.

That's how I came to 'kickstart' a campaign. I was lucky.

Our campaign's a sandbox--this episode is probably the clearest example of a part of the campaign that isn't sort of a "forced move" created by consequences of earlier adventures so while it's not the beginning of the sandbox, it is a lot like what the first sessions of the campaign were like...

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/i-hit-it-with-my-axe/2137-Episode-30-What-We-Did-On-Our-Winter-Vacation
...they pick a direction, start to travel, randomly encounter gnolls...run into some trouble and the next few episodes are the consequences of that