Quote from: DestroyYouAlot;627193I don't know if, from my perspective, I'd call any of these a "sandbox" save the OA game, from what you're describing - B4 Lost City, in particular, has a premise that precludes this sort of play explicitly (since they can't leave, by default).  It's altogether possible there's just something going on I don't see, though.  (And not to say that they're bad campaign premises, as such - just that they seem a bit too focused to call a "sandbox", with the player choice implicit in that style.)  Is there a wilderness outside the Keep, or a means to explore the desert around the Lost City?

Let me clarify. The Keep and the Lost City were the starter dungeons, not the sandboxes. In both cases, there was a huge wilderness (40 x 30 6-mile hexes) with multiple towns, strongholds, dungeons, and lairs available.

In the case of the Keep, the party left the Caves in search of other adventure mid-way through, then returned later at a higher level. In the case of "The Lost City," the group left the city as soon as they had enough water to do so, and went on adventurers elsewhere.

Quote from: amacris;627280Let me clarify. The Keep and the Lost City were the starter dungeons, not the sandboxes. In both cases, there was a huge wilderness (40 x 30 6-mile hexes) with multiple towns, strongholds, dungeons, and lairs available.

In the case of the Keep, the party left the Caves in search of other adventure mid-way through, then returned later at a higher level. In the case of "The Lost City," the group left the city as soon as they had enough water to do so, and went on adventurers elsewhere.

Gotcha.  I figured there was something I wasn't seeing, haha.

Hmm.
Been crazy at the office, not around that much.

I use the same setting for most of my games since 1983.  This helps the sandbox element, since there is a depth of information and consistent backdrop.

My latest one I am setting up is a game for mages at the Collegium Arcana still in school.  Normal starting characters have 5000 unadjusted EXP to spend in our game, in this case they only have 3000.

The small scale sandbox is the school and the curriculum, and the different dorms and groups in the school.  The Mid level sandbox is the Winterloo Neighborhood and the School district of Great Stenron.  
Obviously, the large-scale Sandbox is Celtricia.

Similarly, the small-scale World In Motion hooks deal with the rivalries between dorms and the fraternities for the upperclassmen, the different professors and TA's, as well as some mysterious behaviors with some alchemists of that branch, a small smuggling ring from a fraternity, a number of ghostly issues with a few spirits with anyone who takes necromantic skills (I make no bones about it, while artificers and mentalists have the most useful spells, necromancers get fed the most spooky-fun info, since they often pick up on all the spirits and spirit influenced information), such as a pair of angry magical duelists from almost 300 years past that still haunt one dorm (but who also know where a Staff Ordinaire was left or lost) which would be a huge find since all mages want to be 'Tamp Doen' (staff wielders).
The Mid-Level WIM hooks involve the relationship between the Church of the Lawful Triumverate and the school's recent weaknesses in teaching Order magic, the many references to the sub basements and laboratories below the Campus, 2 traitors in the school, and 3 different historical items/quests that have clues lying all over the place.

Sandbox campaigns are so... boring.

We played in that concept back in the mid-70s after wandering around pointlessly in a dungeon crawl exploring and looting- all to no real end except imaginary fame and imaginary fortune.

A bit before Judge's Guild started producing their products, we wandered out of the dungeon into a huge map, and basically treated it like another dungeon bounded by hex lines instead of the interior D&D grid. We wandered and explored, and looted. I suppose the imaginary fame and fortune was greater.

I liken the experience to most of Arthur C. Clark's books. We went interesting places, met interesting people, and (unlike Clark's books) may or may not have killed them and took their stuff- but really nothing special happened. With ultimate freedom comes ultimate meaninglessness.

And certainly nothing happened that matched the epic fantasy works that had captured our imagination and caused us to play these silly games in the first place. The hopes of recreating them died with every roll of a d20.

We wanted Lord of the Rings, and what we got was Conan (in Platemail because you needed the AC in those days)- who's age of 'adventure' is in the source materials rightly forgotten, for in the end he didn't matter.

Sandboxes are without exception amoral, for to enforce morality is to raidroad the sandbox. They are without exception small minded, for to add an epic overarching story to is to destroy the sandbox. They are without exception meaningless, for no man can define true meaning on his own.

As the decade closed, we burned all the old material, never to return. The past was wasted and it was time to move on to better things.

We traded large random hexmaps for for larger worlds with many stories on different but yet interrelated levels. Like an extensive web, they will ensnare those who pass by and they will deal or not according to their talents. We traded useless freedoms for purpose searched for and found. We put pointed questions to the adventurers, and didn't meekly respond to their base passions.


You couldn't pay me to play in a sandbox. The mere talk of it, and the old school play example threads that ran here a bit ago confirm our decisions to toss it all into the fire. If that was the whole of gaming, I'd stay home to watch NCIS repeats.

These days I don't think people can outgrow D&D and sandboxes on their own. The hobby doesn't have the experimental air that resulted in other options back in the 70s and 80s, and the internet wars have hardened people to cling thoughtlessly to what they used to do as if that's was all there is. The OSR buried themselves in the trenches they dug defending against change, be it from the Forge or WotC, or well- anything.

Look at the hobby, its corpse is fossilizing.

I have a ten foot pole if someone wants to touch that.

Really, Gleichman?

30+ years in and I'm still having a ball. I think your sandbox experience was pretty substandard.  Glad you found something else that worked for you.  Some of us found our epics, though some found fulfillment in other ways.  A good GM, a good setting, and good players can go an awfully long way.

Quote from: Zak S;627392I have a ten foot pole if someone wants to touch that.

I was the idiot.

I told the players where in the game world we'd be starting, and gave them a description of the region and the town or village they're starting in. They devise the reason their characters are in that town. Once in game, I allow the players free reign, and let them find out rumors and the situation in the town and they get involved or not as they see fit.

There's no pre-planned or pre-plotted situation that they will get involved with. They may hear about the mysterious impenetrable gates that recently and mysteriously opened on their own, leading to a path under the mountains that no one has returned from, but there's no guarantee nor necessarily any desire on my part that they go there (in fact, very very few of my games involved any sort of subterranean adventures at all). They may well decide to chase the rumors about a local bandit king and the high price on his head, or go chasing fortune and glory in an entirely different region than they one they started in, decide to fight against a tyrant or foment a rebellion, or join in an ongoing war to the south. It's up to them.

I just supply a bunch of rumors and things happening in the Living World, the PCs decide what they want to do about any of it, up to and including ignoring all of it and instead pointing to a distant part of the map and saying "lets see what's there" if that's what they like.

Quote from: LordVreeg;627393Really, Gleichman?

30+ years in and I'm still having a ball. I think your sandbox experience was pretty substandard.  Glad you found something else that worked for you.  Some of us found our epics, though some found fulfillment in other ways.  A good GM, a good setting, and good players can go an awfully long way.

Remember, it is Starve Troll, Feed Fever.

Quote from: gleichman;627389We played in that concept back in the mid-70s after wandering around pointlessly in a dungeon crawl exploring and looting- all to no real end except imaginary fame and imaginary fortune.

If you have characters with no real or meaningful goals, then any goals you achieve will probably not feel real or meaningful.

QuoteSandboxes are without exception amoral, for to enforce morality is to raidroad the sandbox.

Not true. It's up to the players what kind of PCs they want to be. The Wandering Hero is just as valid as the so-called "Murderhobo".

QuoteThey are without exception meaningless, for no man can define true meaning on his own.

The historical record of the real world begs otherwise.

Quote from: JasonZavoda;627397Remember, it is Starve Troll, Feed Fever.

Indeed.  I claim exhaustion, and the fact I really haven't been around here in a month due to work stress.

Quote from: gleichman;627389Sandboxes are without exception amoral, for to enforce morality is to raidroad the sandbox.

I'll bite the troll.

Whom is it that you think should be enforcing morality? The Judge can enforce morality through the deeds of the gods, on those PCs who are susceptible to the strictures of the gods (paladins, clerics). The Judge can enforce morality through the deeds of governments, on those PCs who have chosen to operate within civilized realms.

What the Judge cannot do is say "your character wouldn't do X". He can only say "If your character does X, then consequence Y might occur."

Other than the gods and the government, who would enforce morality? The GM? The Alignment system?

The existence of agency within the setting does not require amorality. Indeed, I would argue that only WITH agency can there be morality. Morality without free will is merely slavery and submission.

QuoteThey are without exception small minded, for to add an epic overarching story to is to destroy the sandbox.

One can have an epic overarching threat without dictating an overarching story. A sandbox merely allows the characters to decide how they interact with the threat. A railroad does not.

QuoteThey are without exception meaningless, for no man can define true meaning on his own.

Says you; entire schools of philosophy beg to differ and argue that only a man can define the meaning of his own deeds. Just because you believe that no one you know can define true meaning on his own doesn't mean that's true of others.

Quote from: LordVreeg;627393Really, Gleichman?

30+ years in and I'm still having a ball. I think your sandbox experience was pretty substandard.  Glad you found something else that worked for you.  Some of us found our epics, though some found fulfillment in other ways.  A good GM, a good setting, and good players can go an awfully long way.

Those of us working on the Wilderlands Boxed Set certainly were guilty of spreading the impression that a sandbox campaign was about wandering the landscape. But within a year or two, we started pointing out that it is more about the player's choices driving the campaign. That wandering and exploring the landscape was only one of many possible things one could do with sandbox campaign. And for not even the most common thing that many of us did back in the day.

For example my early campaigns were about the players amassing wealth and power so they can "establish" themselves amid the powers of the Wilderlands.

Sometime they wandered, sometimes they explored but in general they did what they had to do to achieve their goals. My job was to describe and detail the locales and people they ran across.

Quote from: amacris;627463I'll bite the troll.

If expressing a opinion different than others is a troll, I suppose I'll just have to live with it.

What I don't have to do is talk to someone who believes such a silly thing.

Quote from: estar;627556For example my early campaigns were about the players amassing wealth and power so they can "establish" themselves amid the powers of the Wilderlands.

Wealth and Power. These are common sandbox goals as they are the only ones really supported by the concept. Hence why I described Sandboxes as amoral.