Monte Cook wrote an article about actions in Numera, or how the game plays. (http://www.montecookgames.com/actions-in-numenera/) What that means basically is that the GM doesn't roll but the players do, and the experience points function as a narrative mechanic to affect the flow of the events in the game. (http://www.montecookgames.com/experience-points-and-the-numenera-gm/)
Just putting that out there to let you know what the game is about (so you're not surprised if you chip in the kickstarter and whatnot). If you have thoughts or feedback based on this, by all means, let's get a conversation going.
Quote from: Benoist;579542Monte Cook wrote an article about actions in Numera, or how the game plays. (http://www.montecookgames.com/actions-in-numenera/) What that means basically is that the GM doesn't roll but the players do, and the experience points function as a narrative mechanic to affect the flow of the events in the game. (http://www.montecookgames.com/experience-points-and-the-numenera-gm/)
Just putting that out there to let you know what the game is about (so you're not surprised if you chip in the kickstarter and whatnot). If you have thoughts or feedback based on this, by all means, let's get a conversation going.
read it earlier.
I like that Monty is trying to brnach out and do different things, but I hate the narrative mechanic.
It goes against everything I have done and taught, that the GM is not the enemy, he is playing 'the rest of the world', and to use Monty's example of when a second automaton would enter the combat, that is best predecided in the design segment of the GM's job (maybe 1 minute after the players start fighting the other one, etc).
Quote from: Benoist;579542Monte Cook wrote an article about actions in Numera, or how the game plays. (http://www.montecookgames.com/actions-in-numenera/) What that means basically is that the GM doesn't roll but the players do, and the experience points function as a narrative mechanic to affect the flow of the events in the game. (http://www.montecookgames.com/experience-points-and-the-numenera-gm/)
Just putting that out there to let you know what the game is about (so you're not surprised if you chip in the kickstarter and whatnot). If you have thoughts or feedback based on this, by all means, let's get a conversation going.
I generally don't have a problem with a "player rolls" mechanism, except in the case where the PC (and thus, player) wouldn't know.
The Narrative Flow/XP mechanic sounds almost exactly like the compel mechanic from FATE. Which is a good thing in my book: I like FATE and I like the particular mechanic.
What troubles me is that he is calling them "XP". Is this something like the way bennies used to work in savage worlds, where you chose between advancing your character and short term influence on the game? I hope not, because (as I have already expressed) that sort of trade-off stinks.
The game sounds like shit.
Also, I very quickly abandoned the "only the players roll" thing in ICONS, and my players seemed to prefer that I have.
RPGPundit
Quote from: RPGPundit;579943The game sounds like shit.
Also, I very quickly abandoned the "only the players roll" thing in ICONS, and my players seemed to prefer that I have.
RPGPundit
well, the DM rolling dice symbolizes the affects of chance in the game world; and also subconsiously symbolizes the 'GM as referee', who is only playing the rest of the world, not playing against the pcs. When the GM assigns a DC for everything for the players, and then just chooses when or if other things should happen, it destroys that aura of impartiality that is so important in a good GM.
This is definitely not the direction I would prefer, but it isnt a dealbreaker for me. It should be easy enough to ignore, or he may change it as the game develops and feedback comes in. Mechanics like this do seem to be a trend right now. I personally dont think they add much to play.
Gimmicks like this do not make me any more impressed.
Also, as shallow as it makes me, I like rolling weird dice.
Quote from: LordVreeg;579994well, the DM rolling dice symbolizes the affects of chance in the game world; and also subconsiously symbolizes the 'GM as referee', who is only playing the rest of the world, not playing against the pcs. When the GM assigns a DC for everything for the players, and then just chooses when or if other things should happen, it destroys that aura of impartiality that is so important in a good GM.
Agreed. The GM sets up the world/social situation/combat environment/NPCs - what actually happens in game should have the strong hand of fortune involved. GM rolling dice represents a kind of universal will or perhaps the random indifference of the cosmos. Players generally accept that their PCs die in combat due to some strong GM dice-rolling, if the GM's set-up (balanced or otherwise) is well communicated to the players.
I know some players who would certainly grumble and balk at character death due to Cook's mechanic and GM narrative control (or whatevva you call it).
Also, I don't mind some kind of meta-economy where you can buy yourself out of trouble. But this economy, I think, should only improve your chances (à la Hollow Earth Expedition). Reality revision where "I spend my xp and don't fall in the pit I stupidly walked into" sucks in my books. "I spend my hero point and improve my dexterity check by +X" is better IMO.
I should also clarify my earlier coment, the experience point blog entry is the one with mechancs that dont appeal to me. Having the players roll everything, though admittedly a bit odd, doesn't trouble me if it is done right and the numbers they are rolling against are well set. I have thought about this sort of mechanic before but have never payed using one. I would really need to try it out (as both a player ad GM) to have a sense of how it actually feels.
I was waiting before throwing some bucks at the kickstarter. Some of the ideas seem interesting to me, the one billion years in the future thing, the mix of various types of technologies that end up feeling like magic, all those kinds of things. But the more I learn about the actual mechanics of the game, the less likely I become of actually supporting the product.
I might end up getting in on it for the setting. I'm on the fence at this point.
Quote from: Benoist;580047I was waiting before throwing some bucks at the kickstarter. Some of the ideas seem interesting to me, the one billion years in the future thing, the mix of various types of technologies that end up feeling like magic, all those kinds of things. But the more I learn about the actual mechanics of the game, the less likely I become of actually supporting the product.
I might end up getting in on it for the setting. I'm on the fence at this point.
It has already well exceeded its goal, so I would only support it if the benefits for doing so are appealing enough to you.
I intend to buy the book when it comes out to see how it works in practice (it wouldn't surprise me if ot ends up being quite different than these blog entries suggest or if the elements that dont appeal to me are easy enough to remove---though if the GM not rolling thing is a dealbreaker for you that seems pretty rooted in the core system, cant see an easy work around that).
Quote from: Benoist;580047I was waiting before throwing some bucks at the kickstarter. Some of the ideas seem interesting to me, the one billion years in the future thing, the mix of various types of technologies that end up feeling like magic, all those kinds of things. But the more I learn about the actual mechanics of the game, the less likely I become of actually supporting the product.
I might end up getting in on it for the setting. I'm on the fence at this point.
i did, but cancelled it. i figure if i wanted to play or run in that kind of setting, i'd be better off applying mechanics that make sense to me already rather than learning another system.
Quote from: beeber;580065i did, but cancelled it. i figure if i wanted to play or run in that kind of setting, i'd be better off applying mechanics that make sense to me already rather than learning another system.
This...
Is always my default position.
Quote from: Benoist;579542Monte Cook wrote an article about actions in Numera, or how the game plays. (http://www.montecookgames.com/actions-in-numenera/) What that means basically is that the GM doesn't roll but the players do, and the experience points function as a narrative mechanic to affect the flow of the events in the game. (http://www.montecookgames.com/experience-points-and-the-numenera-gm/)
Nothing too shocking here. I've seen that narrative control mechanic before and it's often been implemented as nothing more than a "fate point" style spice, so it really depends on exactly how prevalent the system makes it.
The realization that most roleplaying game mechanics are algebra equations and you can totally add modifiers to either side of the equation has also been seen several dozen times before.
I don't want to be too cynical, but this stuff reads like the designer's notes from a dozen "I've only played D&D" fantasy heartbreakers. I know that doesn't actually describe Cook, but it really does sound like "SKILLS ARE SO MUCH MORE REALISTIC THAN CLASSES" rhetoric to me.
Another thing that keeps me off the kickstarter is the contents of the "real deal", which comes with only one actual print product, the Numenera core book itself. It's got a shitload of bonus content in the form of PDFs, but that's just it: this is electronic content. I've come to value PDFs less and less over the last few years, because I end up hoarding them without reading them.
QuoteTHE REAL DEAL $60 Level (+$10 shipping outside North America)
App (Android, iOS, or PC)
Name in the back of the corebook
Player's Guide PDF
Numenera corebook PDF
The Devil's Spine 32-page adventure PDF
The Mechanized Tomb 32-page adventure PDF
The Other Side of the Maelstrom 32-page adventure PDF
The Ninth World Bestiary 160-page PDF
Sir Arthur's Compendium 160-page PDF
Numenera 3D Paper Fold-Up Terrain PDF
GM's Screen PDF
Numenera corebook in print
That's a problem for me. A 32-page adventure on the computer I can read. A 160-page sourcebook, much less likely. I need an actual print product to get the most value out of it, personally, at this point. So I'd get the $60 "real deal" and, assuming I like the game, I'd pay more afterwards to get print copies of content I would already have, technically? See, if you really love PDFs that's an AWESOME value in terms of content. If you don't have the time or inclination to read PDFs on a computer/tablet/whatnot, you're kind of screwed on the stretch goals and bonus content. Stuff keeps being added to it, but at the same time there's nothing there that makes me go "OK that's it, I'm going to pitch in."
I tend to print my more interesting PDFs (don't like reading them on the screen much).
Quote from: Benoist;580410I've come to value PDFs less and less over the last few years, because I end up hoarding them without reading them.
Definitely. Modules I like in PDF because I can print them out and annotate to my heart's content. Anything over 30-40 pages and I gotta have hard copy. There is a lot of PDF corebooks and settings on my hard drive that have just piled up there.
With print stretch goals, Cook's game
might have got a looksie, but nah.
Quote from: Melan;580416I tend to print my more interesting PDFs (don't like reading them on the screen much).
I used to do that. Now I'd kill series of cartridges in the attempt. ;)
My funds arent gonna stretch to allow me to throw some cash in on this one, i think i'll wait till leisure games gets copies of the book in next fall and give it a nosey then(im gonna do the same for tenra basho since the kickstarter ends way to soon for my tastes and funds).
Quote from: LordVreeg;579994well, the DM rolling dice symbolizes the affects of chance in the game world; and also subconsiously symbolizes the 'GM as referee', who is only playing the rest of the world, not playing against the pcs. When the GM assigns a DC for everything for the players, and then just chooses when or if other things should happen, it destroys that aura of impartiality that is so important in a good GM.
That's quite an insightful point, actually.
RPGPundit
Quote from: RPGPundit;580775That's quite an insightful point, actually.
RPGPundit
I agree it is. And personally it actually destroys my sense of verisimilitude of the world by changing the dynamic of the game where you have PCs potentially making the same tests and rolling the same dice to complete similar actions in the world as any other NPC or creatures there is, to make the PCs the clear "protagonists" of the "story" where the players are in fact rolling everything that might affect their vehicle (character) in the narrative being built collaboratively.
That's something that might be enjoyable to some people, judging by the reactions online, but that's not what I am looking for in a role playing game. It seems to me Monte Cook, with his time spent writing fiction during the past few years, has fallen hook and sinker to the notion that RPGs are story-building emulators.
Quote from: Benoist;580777I agree it is. And personally it actually destroys my sense of verisimilitude of the world by changing the dynamic of the game where you have PCs potentially making the same tests and rolling the same dice to complete similar actions in the world as any other NPC or creatures there is, to make the PCs the clear "protagonists" of the "story" where the players are in fact rolling everything that might affect their vehicle (character) in the narrative being built collaboratively.
That's something that might be enjoyable to some people, judging by the reactions online, but that's not what I am looking for in a role playing game. It seems to me Monte Cook, with his time spent writing fiction during the past few years, has fallen hook and sinker to the notion that RPGs are story-building emulators.
Sometimes, in trying to stretch and make something different, people try too hard and break the part of the game that is working.
Alright. With about 30 odd hours remaining to chip in at the Numenera kickstarter, I finally took my decision and will not be supporting it.
If there's someone I just know will deliver the goods, it's Monte Cook.
The ideas for the Ninth World seem really cool, the art is stunning, etc.
But.
I just don't see myself liking the system, nor do I want to house rule the game right out the gate, nor do I really need the game when I am running my own stuff at the present and for the years to come. I don't see myself checking out multiple PDFs, amd could do with the Numenera money I'd participate to instead invest in other gaming stuff I will be sure to actually use at my game table.
I kind of agonized (as far as you reasonably can "agonize" over game choices of course) on this choice because I supported pretty much everything Monte came up with since the Book of Eldritch Might. If you like the premise of the game and its rules you shouldn't be afraid to chip in: Monte will deliver, and in spades, I expect.
But at the end of the day, I don't like the direction he's taking blending story telling and fiction writing logic with role-playing game design as though they were the same thing. They are not. I'll pass.
I agree.
I have many believes and written maxims about design, and while Monte does a pretty decent job in not breaking the big ones, this game is not for me. I have no doubt that he'll have fun and that the game will be decent for certain fans, but while I applaud games that depend on a good and judicious GM, I don't like some of the positions this ruleset seems to want to put the GM into.
Quote from: Benoist;582969Alright. With about 30 odd hours remaining to chip in at the Numenera kickstarter, I finally took my decision and will not be supporting it.
If there's someone I just know will deliver the goods, it's Monte Cook.
The ideas for the Ninth World seem really cool, the art is stunning, etc.
But.
I just don't see myself liking the system, nor do I want to house rule the game right out the gate, nor do I really need the game when I am running my own stuff at the present and for the years to come. I don't see myself checking out multiple PDFs, amd could do with the Numenera money I'd participate to instead invest in other gaming stuff I will be sure to actually use at my game table.
I kind of agonized (as far as you reasonably can "agonize" over game choices of course) on this choice because I supported pretty much everything Monte came up with since the Book of Eldritch Might. If you like the premise of the game and its rules you shouldn't be afraid to chip in: Monte will deliver, and in spades, I expect.
But at the end of the day, I don't like the direction he's taking blending story telling and fiction writing logic with role-playing game design as though they were the same thing. They are not. I'll pass.
I'm on the other side of the fence right now, but I do keep wondering about cancelling so may swap yet. As the previews have gone on, the Numenera system has settled firmly in to the "do not want" camp for me - but I was always more interested in the setting, anyway. However, he's even managed to put me off that a bit with the whole "cyphers" thing (http://www.montecookgames.com/cyphers-oddities-artifacts-and-discoveries/).
I'm not a user of big PDFs myself either (I've noticed in the past with RPG PDFs that I tend to forget I even own them in a way I don't with books), but I figure the "Real Deal" at least gives me a way to preview all the other print books.
I do wonder too if Monte's going to burn out on this. What's he in for now - 1,200 pages over eight books? That's a lot for a one man company to fulfil.
I've gone from interested to wary the more the setting-bloat has expanded. I'm not a fan of large PDFs, and I don't need that much fluff.
Quote from: Benoist;582969Alright. With about 30 odd hours remaining to chip in at the Numenera kickstarter, I finally took my decision and will not be supporting it.
If there's someone I just know will deliver the goods, it's Monte Cook.
The ideas for the Ninth World seem really cool, the art is stunning, etc.
But.
But I know I'd never play it. And that's the clincher really.