Quote from: Warboss Squee;1060140Still curious about the Crawford/FR stuff. Google has been unkind.

Here's Pundit on Crawfordian Waterdeep:

[video=youtube;R29Y_nwgXoQ]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R29Y_nwgXoQ[/youtube]

Quote from: GeekEclectic;1060104The SJWs absolutely lost their shit.

Of course they would. How dare the Vampire devs not accept their demands and bend over backwards to fulfill those demands. I probably will never buy V5 yet good on them for standing up to the SJWs. And they are right about vampires too often gamers forgot that they are bad people who follow horrible ideologies. So why would they be presented as being wholesome good creatures.

You can't reason with somebody who says you can't loosely base some bad guys in your game off real-life bad guys because the real-life bad guys are bad.

Quote from: Motorskills;1060027So while this "destroying the hobby" bullshit doesn't wash  it doesn't mean we can't debate the merits and flaws of earlier publications and the (cultural) considerations of future output.

These cultural considerations only matter to a small fraction of players or potential players. And I'd wager most of the people championing this stuff online aren't even actively gaming - their participation on RPG forums is simply an extension of their political activism. Does it make D&D more broadly appealing if the covers of books feature a lot of female characters? Sure. But it's not as though D&D books never featured women on their covers. And when you get down to the level of the 'drow are racist' argument, you're far, far from mainstream concerns, and deep into the fever pits of ideological dogma that the vast majority of gamers don't subscribe to.

Quote from: S'mon;1060057I think the idea that the current popularity of D&D was due to SJWs doing socjus, is silly. Normal people of all sexes and races rarely find anything 'problematic', and certainly not stuff like drow.

Yep. The Atlantic recently did a story on a new study into social tribes and concluded progressive activists make up only small fraction of Americans (8 per cent), and the great majority of people can't stand their dogma:

Americans Strongly Dislike PC Culture

QuoteThe study should also make progressives more self-critical about the way in which speech norms serve as a marker of social distinction. I don't doubt the sincerity of the affluent and highly educated people who call others out if they use "problematic" terms or perpetrate an act of "cultural appropriation." But what the vast majority of Americans seem to see--at least according to the research conducted for "Hidden Tribes"--is not so much genuine concern for social justice as the preening display of cultural superiority.

Given demographics, I don't doubt that progressive activists make up a larger proportion of the geek gamer market than the population at large. But they're still only a fraction of the market. We shouldn't mistake their zeal and persistence for popularity.

Quote from: S'mon;1060128Edit: It occurs to me that if WoTC keeps doubling down on making Forgotten Realms into Jeremy Crawford's Magical Realm, it could end up having the opposite effect, and begin to deter mainstream normal people. TSR was right to tone down the more egregious sexual elements of Ed Greenwood's Magical Realm when turning Forgotten Realms into a mainstream commercial setting; WoTC could end up doing the reverse if they stay on present course. That Jeremy's interests & views are now considered Politically Correct by the West's ruling elites, and normal in Seattle Liberal circles, I don't think really changes this calculus. They need to keep it at a level where it won't deter most people.

See above. Unless WotC's strategy is to market D&D exclusively at progressive, educated, affluent, urban whites under the age of 40, hewing to progressive activist ideology will likely alienate more customers than it attracts. And even in that demographic most dislike political correctness. This is another case of a tribe believing it's much larger than it is due to the distorting, echo-chamber effect of social media.

Again, from the Atlantic article:

QuoteThe gap between the progressive perception and the reality of public views on this issue could do damage to the institutions that the woke elite collectively run. A publication whose editors think they represent the views of a majority of Americans when they actually speak to a small minority of the country may eventually see its influence wane and its readership decline.

Quote from: Haffrung;1060153These cultural considerations only matter to a small fraction of players or potential players. And I'd wager most of the people championing this stuff online aren't even actively gaming - their participation on RPG forums is simply an extension of their political activism. Does it make D&D more broadly appealing if the covers of books feature a lot of female characters? Sure. But it's not as though D&D books never featured women on their covers. And when you get down to the level of the 'drow are racist' argument, you're far, far from mainstream concerns, and deep into the fever pits of ideological dogma that the vast majority of gamers don't subscribe

I see it from the other direction. I firmly believe that the massive - massive - uptick in gaming and gamers is definitely related to the hobby itself being more welcoming.

Rulesets with low threshold for buy-in is a factor. Artwork that has wide appeal is a factor. Diversity of game authors is a factor. Education of the existing hobby membership is a factor. Improved communication tools is a (huge) factor, especially social media. The parallel growth of the boardgames hobby is a factor.

Now there can be a debate about the imagery (etc) of the Drow, and there's probably some value to be had there.

But l don't think pointing to isolated examples is necessarily that helpful. With the VtM5 discussion, the concerns were complex than are being discussed in this thread. Those debates will swing back and forth within a relatively small segment of the hobby, same for the debates over the Drow.

So your first line is nominally correct, but it misses the larger point that these debates are outliers of a shift that's already been completed for the most part. The hobby is popular in the mainstream, it's played across all generations, all that stuff.

"Destroying the hobby" is the exact opposite of what has happened.

Quote from: Motorskills;1060163Education of the existing hobby membership is a factor.

No it isn't; and if you guys did succeed in your goals you would destroy RPGing as a broad-based hobby the same way you destroyed science fiction & fantasy literary fandom, and tried but failed to destroy videogaming.

Quote from: S'mon;1060165No it isn't; and if you guys did succeed in your goals you would destroy RPGing as a broad-based hobby the same way you destroyed science fiction & fantasy fandom, and tried but failed to destroy videogaming.

Again, I would point to Hollywood, plenty of lessons to be drawn from there, not just Weinstein, but "Ask Her More", and stuff like that.

And you can bury your head in the sand about science fiction fandom, but I think that arena is better off without Breen/Zimmer, and with fewer female cosplayers getting groped at conventions. As for videogames, GamerGater remains a shitstain on all of fandom.

The RPG hobby is thriving and fun, doesn't mean there aren't still things that can be improved.

I agree that Hollywood could use more diversity. That it's a good thing that less woman are getting groped at conventions.

That being said Hollywood and other industries have and refuse learn about forcing diversity on the viewers imo. It's great that their a strong female leads in all types of media. Not so much when other male characters tend to look like idiots and weak compared to their female counterparts. Funny enough just like female viewers don't like the reverse male viewers strangely enough feel the same. Hollywood seems to think toss in diversity and inclusiveness with a mediocre script and it will make them millions. It usually does not imo. They can be as diverse as they want in Hollywood yet don't expect them to be diverse too much because the Chinese market simply will not accept it imo.  That market is their biggest profitable market. Unlike IDW who prefers to lose money. hollywood will make a token effort at both so they say they are and make sure they rake in the profit.

Again nothing wrong with inclusiveness and diversity in rpgs which to me at least they always were. It's the insane, trigger happy special snowflakes who see rapist, racist, misogynists in every dark corner in every home, convention or in the street. Everything  and anything is offensive and if one cannot see why that is a bad thing your not but a disingenuous piece of crap.

Quote from: Haffrung;1060153These cultural considerations only matter to a small fraction of players or potential players.

This is actually why SJW entryism works. Very few of your customers (or potential customers) care at all about internal corporate culture. People who obsess over the cultural implications of dime-novel characters take over the company prior to dropping political nukes on the product.

QuoteThe gap between the progressive perception and the reality of public views on this issue could do damage to the institutions that the woke elite collectively run. A publication whose editors think they represent the views of a majority of Americans when they actually speak to a small minority of the country may eventually see its influence wane and its readership decline.

This is what happened to comic books.

Quote from: Motorskills;1060166Again, I would point to Hollywood, plenty of lessons to be drawn from there, not just Weinstein, but "Ask Her More", and stuff like that.

Actually, the biggest lesson to learn from Hollywood is when celebrities and creators use the Oscars to pontificate about their dogmas and causes, people turn the channel in massive numbers. To the point where Oscars ratings continue to plummet to historical lows.

Quote from: sureshot;1060167I agree that Hollywood could use more diversity.

Hollywood could use less raping - of men, women and children.

To me it was very notable that the media swiftly turned Weinstein > #MeToo from an issue about the horrible culture of Hollywood - an actual "rape culture" -  into an attack on men in general.

Quote from: Motorskills;1060163But l don't think pointing to isolated examples is necessarily that helpful. With the VtM5 discussion, the concerns were complex than are being discussed in this thread. Those debates will swing back and forth within a relatively small segment of the hobby, same for the debates over the Drow.

This is bullshit, and you know it. What happened was basically a witch hunt. Here's what happened.

1) Members of the Brujah clan are known for adopting and hyperfocusing on a particular ideology and going balls to the wall for it. It could be something they were into before their change, or something they grabbed onto after the change, but the end result is the same. It could be something good, something neutral, or something bad - it'll vary by individual vampire. But as vampires, they're not better and more enlightened than normal people, so if a regular human might adopt it, it's fair game for a Brujah. White Wolf dared to mention Nazism as one of the various possibilities, and like I said, the SJW's lost their shit. "How dare they say that a creature that's supposed to be worse than normal people in a world that's supposed to be worse than the real world might possibly(but not necessarily) adopt a particular horrible ideology!"

2) SJWs attack, attack, attack.

3) WW comes back with what I said earlier. A comment that essentially states that they're going to acknowledge and not shy away from real world problems in creating their even worse than the real world setting. They quote some statistic about the number of "real nazis" in some European country that's pretty obviously inflated. Something ridiculous like 25%. So it's pretty obvious that they're also drinking from the SJW "anyone to the right of me is a nazi" bs, just not to quite the same extreme as the people attacking them.

4) The comment is of course taken completely out of context, showing that the SJWs doing so either lack basic reading comprehension skills or that they're willing to intentionally twist statements out of context in order to not have to admit defeat(they're not entirely homogeneous, so I'd wager that some of them fall into both camps). And they double down and start accusing WW of pandering to nazis and trying to attract the nazi dollar when White Wolf said nothing even remotely close to that.

Never attempt to appease hate groups. They are only looking for reasons to be upset. Nothing will mollify them.

Quote from: Motorskills;1060163Education of the existing hobby membership is a factor.

Not this bullshit again. :rolleyes:

We've already been through this one, it was the argument where I gave you an intellectual wedgie and you became so butthurt over your trouncing that you publicly announced that you had put me on your Ignore List (even though you still read my posts).

Quote from: jeff37923;1060184Not this bullshit again. :rolleyes:

We've already been through this one, it was the argument where I gave you an intellectual wedgie and you became so butthurt over your trouncing that you publicly announced that you had put me on your Ignore List (even though you still read my posts).

Greetings!

Oh really? What the hell does the hobby membership need to be "educated" on?

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK