After much hassle with the cartel that controls our borders, I was able to get my hands on Aces & Eights.  I was quite looking forward to it and it has not disappointed.  I was going to sub-title this thread "why it's the future" but thought that might be too inflammatory for the censoring ideologues that live here.  But I would like to share some of the things about this game that get me all excited:

1)  Mini-games that handle specific genre-related tasks, using separate systems.  They've got them for cattle runs, gambling, gold-panning and trials.  Each is structured totally differently so that they become in-effect a game within a game.  I've only really read thoroughly and tested the trial one but it was cool enough that I definitely want to find ways to have trials in my game.  A nice combo of strategy and roleplaying with rules for threatening or buying jurors or the judge.

2)  A reward system based on career paths, where combat experience only really affects your performance in combat (with a curve that flattens out quite quickly).  So you really can be a barber and there are in-game motivations to improve as a barber, cut hair, open a shop, hire other barbers.  You can also be a whore.  That's awesome.

3) Random character generation. This is something I haven't used since elementary school, not because I was against it, but just because it never came across my table in my adult gaming days.  But man is it fun.  It's detailed too, like how many siblings you have and what happened to each of them.  You come out the other side really feeling like you have an in-depth character and you can't wait to run him through the dark hell that is the wild west.  There is a point-buy method as well, but the random got me charged up.  Makes me want to have random chargen for every game.

4) Excellent writing and a clear love for the genre:  There is a nice balance of flavour and rules.  The writing is clear and straightforward, with a tough edge and a slight hint of dark sarcasm, which is exactly the way a realistic western should feel.  Reading the book makes you want to go back and watch westerns and read some Louis L'amour and Zane Grey.

5) Awesome production values.  This isn't a big deal for me, usually, but this book is slick. They must have gotten a ton of open-content art for cheap because all the art in this book is real paintings and illustrations and they are gorgeous, often taking up an entire page with bleed or two pages.  The binding is faux-leather so it looks like one of those time-life western books. The sticker on the front is the only false note, looking kind of cheap.  It's hefty, too.  

The tone of the book is "realistic".  It sucks getting shot. It's easy to get sick or infected.  Money is important and you don't start with much.  There isn't any real way in the system to dial this up or down, so you probably won't be able to twist a cinematic over-the-top western out of this.  But for gritty, detailed campaigns where you want to play a guy trying to open a bar without getting your fingers chopped off by the local Maclean boys or a dude doctor from the east looking for his prostitute sister, this is it.

I'm going to try and wrangle a posse together for early '08 and see if I can get a campaign going.  I want a real sandbox setup, taking place in and around a town where the players can do whatever the hell they want and we'll see what happens.

Quote from: walkerpSo you really can be a barber and there are in-game motivations to improve as a barber, cut hair, open a shop, hire other barbers.  You can also be a whore.  That's awesome.

Okay, please elaborate.  What kind of fun does the game offer the prospective player of a barber and/or whore?

I pretty well grok the fun of a gun showdown at noon.  Trying to give somebody a really clean shave ... that one I'm going to need some help understanding.

Man, I don't need another game right now, much less a cowboy game, but that sounds awesome.  

QuoteI was going to sub-title this thread "why it's the future" but thought that might be too inflammatory for the censoring ideologues that live here.

Say what?  Have we had a rash of censoring around here and I've been asleep?

It does sound awesome. But, man, what a gamble for Kenzer: an expensive Wild West RPG. Not a surefire recipe for five-digit sales.

Quote from: jrientsSay what?  Have we had a rash of censoring around here and I've been asleep?

Yeah I though that was a bit out of place, and counter productive to the OP's supposed intent, which was to talk about a game- or so I thought.

Quote from: walkerp1)  Mini-games that handle specific genre-related tasks, using separate systems.  They've got them for cattle runs, gambling, gold-panning and trials.  Each is structured totally differently so that they become in-effect a game within a game.  I've only really read thoroughly and tested the trial one but it was cool enough that I definitely want to find ways to have trials in my game.  A nice combo of strategy and roleplaying with rules for threatening or buying jurors or the judge.

Yeah, that sounds cool and is something that i definitely like. A little bit out of fashion in todays 'single unified system' though. Hopefully this sort of thing makes a comeback.

Quote from: TonyLBOkay, please elaborate.  What kind of fun does the game offer the prospective player of a barber and/or whore?

I pretty well grok the fun of a gun showdown at noon.  Trying to give somebody a really clean shave ... that one I'm going to need some help understanding.

Well I sort of deliberately picked the most mundane examples to emphasize my preference of playing detailed, quotidian and yes sometimes mundane characters.  There is a wide range of professions from snake-oil salesman, to cowboy to gambler to leatherworker to sherrif and they all have specific career progressions with BPs (Building Points, the xp for career) attached to them.  The game is designed to encourage characters changing profession over time.  

I like this because the idea is that you are a real person, trying to make a go in the frontier and the troubles (and adventures) are probably going to come to you.  It's one thing being a barber, it's another being a barber shaving a witness to a murder while your kid is playing in the back of the shop. The doors swing open...

Quote from: walkerpAfter much hassle with the cartel that controls our borders, I was able to get my hands on Aces & Eights.

Sorry to go slightly off topic, but as I live in the US I've never really had to deal much with this, so I was wondering what sort of difficulties you had encountered, and as a general question towards you and all non US residents is this common place in your experience?

Quote from: Pierce InverarityIt does sound awesome. But, man, what a gamble for Kenzer: an expensive Wild West RPG. Not a surefire recipe for five-digit sales.

They sold out their first printing in two months.  They sold all their demo copies at GenCon.  But yes, I'd say it was a gamble.  In the short term, it appears to have paid off. We'll see how it does in the long term.  I suspect they'll grab a similar niche in terms of size to one they had with Hackmaster (like I have any idea what that is) but maybe one with more upside.

They are talking about coming out with a cheaper player's book in early '08, which would bode well for my campaign.

Quote from: walkerpI like this because the idea is that you are a real person, trying to make a go in the frontier and the troubles (and adventures) are probably going to come to you.  It's one thing being a barber, it's another being a barber shaving a witness to a murder while your kid is playing in the back of the shop. The doors swing open...

That, indeed, sounds very dramatic.  But ... what happens next?  Does the drama come from whether or not you gave the witness a really close shave, or left some stubble at the neckline?  Or is a combat about to break out in the barber-shop?

Quote from: Serious PaulSorry to go slightly off topic, but as I live in the US I've never really had to deal much with this, so I was wondering what sort of difficulties you had encountered, and as a general question towards you and all non US residents is this common place in your experience?

Now you're going to get me ranting.  Here in Canada we are part of NAFTA, which was supposed increase trade and flow of goods, which I think it did, but did nothing to restrict the power of the two powerful organized crime gangs that collude to suck the lifeblood from Canadian consumers:  Canada Post and Customs Canada.  Basically, any package that goes through them risks getting both a tariff from Customs and a handling fee from Post (generally $8 for any package they "have" to open).  This also adds considerable delay (literally two months for my Aces & Eights book) to the shipping time.

Now if the company on the U.S. side knows what they are doing, they can fill the forms out in a way that significantly increases the odds of getting it through.  I have heard that Noble Knight may be such a company but I have yet to experience it myself.

And don't even get me started on the Canadian distribution companies.  They pretended that Aces & Eights didn't exist.  For the government-sponsored cartel, I can see their motivations, but when the private sector is just as lame you're really left astounded.  I mean don't they want to sell stuff?

Quote from: TonyLBThat, indeed, sounds very dramatic.  But ... what happens next?  Does the drama come from whether or not you gave the witness a really close shave, or left some stubble at the neckline?  Or is a combat about to break out in the barber-shop?

I can't tell you. It depends on what the PCs do and how the dice fall. That's how it is in the west, my friend.

I mean there are plenty of rules for gunfighting and combat.  It could break out into full-blown combat or it could be a tense psychological standoff where the baddies threaten the witness and the barber PC demonstrates his coolness by succesfully continuing to shave while this is all going on.

Quote from: walkerpI can't tell you. It depends on what the PCs do and how the dice fall. That's how it is in the west, my friend.

I mean there are plenty of rules for gunfighting and combat.  It could break out into full-blown combat or it could be a tense psychological standoff where the baddies threaten the witness and the barber PC demonstrates his coolness by succesfully continuing to shave while this is all going on.

Okay ... my questions aren't getting through here.

Why would I want to play a barber or a whore, rather than (say) a gunfighter?

You seem (in your first post) to be pitching the system on the basis that it makes that a valid choice.  But then your examples are leading to "And then it'd be really cool and dramatic ... if you were a gunfighter ... you're sorta screwed if you're a barber or a whore, though."

I'd like a sense of what a full scene looks like where the barber (or the whore) gets to do something uniquely cool.

Well, outside of the system, you'd want to play a barber or a whore because you think that would be fun to play.  

Inside the system, as I said, both careers have specific goals built into them, around opening your own business, expanding your business. Whenever you achieve those goals, you gain BPs, which can then be spent on increasing your skills (any skills, though it could be those involved with your chosen career path).

I don't know if that is still not answering your question. There is nothing in the game that will inherently motivate a whore to be the best whore, besides desire for gaining BPs.  But successfully using your Seduction skill (I think that's the appropriate skill; I don't have the book here) will increase your influence over clients, your reputation (both in-game stats) and your earnings thus giving you more ability to rise up out of being a simple whore and achieving madam-hood or whatever it's called.

But this game is designed to just let you do the things that people did in the old west.  It's up to the GM and the actions of the players to turn them into exciting situations.

Quote from: TonyLBYou seem (in your first post) to be pitching the system on the basis that it makes that a valid choice.  But then your examples are leading to "And then it'd be really cool and dramatic ... if you were a gunfighter ... you're sorta screwed if you're a barber or a whore, though."

Well in that situation you are sorta screwed if you don't have a gun.  Actually, in Aces & Eights there is a good chance that you are also sort of screwed even if you do have a gun.     As I said, the game is dialled in quite realistically.  Maybe the barber recognizes that the main bad guy has a certain amount of vanity and appeals to that, gets him to sit in the chair for a haircut.  A whore could use her charms to get him to put his gun down.