Quote from: joewolzI think it's just a name...a reference to the circular nature of the crosshair.

Here I was thinking it had something to do with timing shots

Quote from: joewolzI understand that cheap western novels aren't real history, but why can't the game embrace that "west that should've been" instead of some crappy southern apologist stuff?

I have to ask what your problem is with an alternate history setting in which the CSA mostly becomes independent from the US?  Aces & Eights doesn't glorify the "Old South" legend or anything like that.  Alternate History where the CSA either wins or at least doesn't lose the ACW is pretty standard fare out there.

One of the bigger reasons I read on why an Alternate History instead of standard history is that in the designers experiences, games in historical settings (and in certain fictional settings like Star Wars) have a tendancy to be a bit more limiting for players and GMs.  Basically they tend to follow what history has written.  If a game starts in 1868 for instance, people tend to be lazy and have most historical events from there forward happen as they did.  Certainly not everyone does that, but plenty do.

QuoteHow trivially easy?  I am interested in the game, but that's a $50 book we're talking about.  I'd like to make sure I get the most bang for that kinda buck, know what I mean?

Pretty easy.  You would need to ignore the "history" section of course, and most of the maps would be of no real use (but not like there are not hundreds of period maps easily available for free on the web).  Some few things in character creation would need to be changed (some of the background items are based on the AH), and a few descriptions of weapons would need tiny changes since A&8s has weapons tech about 10 years further along (as an example, they have two different Winchester rifles called the Model 1863 and Model 1866, while in real life those same rifles were called the 1873 and 1876), the default year for the game start is 1868.

Yes, it is an expensive game, but if you do a little searching on the web, you can find it for $40 or less from other places.  Go to the link in the first post and download the various things that are available for free and that should give you somewhat of an idea if it is something you would like.  There is also looking at it in your FLGS.

You can also take a look at the forum that Kenzer and Company has for the game and inquire more there.

My opinion, it's a well researched game, with a good and interesting system, and has extremely high production values.

I don't have my copy of A&E yet, but it is on its way. I was nearly put off, because the system sounds very complex and I'm not a fan of complicated mechanics. However, the book sounds cool so I just wants it.

And I'm reading as bunch of westerns at the moment, so I an inspired to run something based on the books I'm reading.

I will probably just end up running something using Coyote Trail, Six Gun (1PG) or my own Go Fer Yer Gun!

Quote from: Simon WI don't have my copy of A&E yet, but it is on its way. I was nearly put off, because the system sounds very complex and I'm not a fan of complicated mechanics. However, the book sounds cool so I just wants it.

And I'm reading as bunch of westerns at the moment, so I an inspired to run something based on the books I'm reading.

I will probably just end up running something using Coyote Trail, Six Gun (1PG) or my own Go Fer Yer Gun!

The system is not as complicated as it first appears.  Kenzer and Company have posted several clips on YouTube on how various things work (that is a great concept and one other companies should seriously consider).

Quote from: SionEwigI have to ask what your problem is with an alternate history setting in which the CSA mostly becomes independent from the US?  Aces & Eights doesn't glorify the "Old South" legend or anything like that.  Alternate History where the CSA either wins or at least doesn't lose the ACW is pretty standard fare out there.

How is the slavery issue handled?  Did the Confederacy have a sudden epiphany and realize that all men are created equal or is it a more logical progression?  And if so, does it indicate how blacks are treated post-slavery?

Pete

Quote from: joewolzI understand that cheap western novels aren't real history, but why can't the game embrace that "west that should've been" instead of some crappy southern apologist stuff?

As far as I can tell it isn't southern apologist at all.

QuoteHow trivially easy?  I am interested in the game, but that's a $50 book we're talking about.  I'd like to make sure I get the most bang for that kinda buck, know what I mean?

As in, you can browse the book for an hour and never hit any of the alternate history.

A setting where the Confederacy wins/ties in the Civil War isn't necessarily "southern apologist" and even less racist or anything like that, but it almost certainly suffers from two problems:

1. "Southern Romanticism".  The idea that the CSA was just Soooo cool if it wasn't for "that unfortunate slavery stuff", and therefore a setting where the CSA won would somehow be automatically cooler.  So inevitably what you get is this totally unrealistic world where the CSA manages to stay together (something highly unlikely given the nature of its own constitution), almost always abolishes slavery immediately anyways (something just as historically unlikely, but that almost every setting does in order to not seem "racist"), and where expansion to the west happens anyways (also utterly unlikely).

2. A serious failure to grasp just how really cool the historical wild west really was; in no small part DUE to the end of the civil war and the collapse of the south.  Think "firefly" here, folks, the wild west was full of refugees/ deeply wounded and traumatized people and outlaws that were ex confederate soldiers or civilians escaping the horror of the "reconstruction".
Not to mention all the ex Union soldiers who just couldn't go back to their normal lives after the war, and went out west instead.
The "wild west" was a direct consequence of the civil war, and couldn't really have existed in the way we think of it if the civil war hadn't played out the way it did.

A "realistic" alternate history where the CSA survived the civil war would be one where almost immediately the CSA (and possibly the USA as well) would have collapsed into a bunch of balkanized horrifically backwater place.  If the northern part of the USA didn't fall apart as well, they'd certainly have radically slowed down the western expansion that happened in our history after the war, because they'd have been far more concerned with either protecting their southern border from the chaos that would have happened in the South, and possibly retaking territories there.

RPGpundit

Quote from: RPGPunditA "realistic" alternate history where the CSA survived the civil war would be one where almost immediately the CSA (and possibly the USA as well) would have collapsed into a bunch of balkanized horrifically backwater place.  If the northern part of the USA didn't fall apart as well, they'd certainly have radically slowed down the western expansion that happened in our history after the war, because they'd have been far more concerned with either protecting their southern border from the chaos that would have happened in the South, and possibly retaking territories there.

You know, that could be a pretty kickass setting "Western" setting too. I could be possible that people would try and head west sick of a CSA failing because of its loose confederation arrangement and wearied by the USA's constant hinting of a second attempt to 'restore the Union'. The majority of the area between Mexico and Canada would be a broad frontier open to everyone, but worse and more exciting, not supervised in any way, and populated by the natives, who still have no reason to love the white man.

Quote from: JamesVThe majority of the area between Mexico and Canada would be a broad frontier open to everyone, but worse and more exciting, not supervised in any way, and populated by the natives, who still have no reason to love the white man.

Especially that Mexico would want half its country back.

Quote from: JamesVThe majority of the area between Mexico and Canada would be a broad frontier open to everyone, but worse and more exciting, not supervised in any way, and populated by the natives, who still have no reason to love the white man.

Speaking of, are there any alt history Old West RPGs that have the Plains Indians maintaining control of their territory (without the use of magic or ghost rocks or anything like that)?

Pete

Quote from: joewolzEspecially that Mexico would want half its country back.

Totally.
It could have this post apoc flavor. After so many years of Manifest Destiny being such a part of the US mindset, this kind of New West would be Hell right in the handcart. Some people would be totally mindfucked, and those brave souls who still wanted to head west would have strong motivations. A past to escape, delusions of grandeur on an "unclaimed" land, idealists trying to keep MD alive, Mormons, that sort of thing.

Quote from: JamesVTotally.
It could have this post apoc flavor. After so many years of Manifest Destiny being such a part of the US mindset, this kind of New West would be Hell right in the handcart. Some people would be totally mindfucked, and those brave souls who still wanted to head west would have strong motivations. A past to escape, delusions of grandeur on an "unclaimed" land, idealists trying to keep MD alive, Mormons, that sort of thing.

Hardly.  What you'd really get would be a large area that would remain underpopulated (compared to what it was in our history between 1865-1890) for decades, indian tribes that would remain undisturbed in their territories for a lot longer; possibly a war in California between the "republic of california" and Mexico, and the British (Canada) annexing most of the pacific northwest.

I think that frankly, a realistic AH where the US lost the Civil War would be one that would be far less exciting of a wild west than our own REAL wild west.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPunditA setting where the Confederacy wins/ties in the Civil War isn't necessarily "southern apologist" and even less racist or anything like that, but it almost certainly suffers from two problems:

1. "Southern Romanticism".  The idea that the CSA was just Soooo cool if it wasn't for "that unfortunate slavery stuff", and therefore a setting where the CSA won would somehow be automatically cooler.  So inevitably what you get is this totally unrealistic world where the CSA manages to stay together (something highly unlikely given the nature of its own constitution), almost always abolishes slavery immediately anyways (something just as historically unlikely, but that almost every setting does in order to not seem "racist"), and where expansion to the west happens anyways (also utterly unlikely).

2. A serious failure to grasp just how really cool the historical wild west really was; in no small part DUE to the end of the civil war and the collapse of the south.  Think "firefly" here, folks, the wild west was full of refugees/ deeply wounded and traumatized people and outlaws that were ex confederate soldiers or civilians escaping the horror of the "reconstruction".
Not to mention all the ex Union soldiers who just couldn't go back to their normal lives after the war, and went out west instead.
The "wild west" was a direct consequence of the civil war, and couldn't really have existed in the way we think of it if the civil war hadn't played out the way it did.

A "realistic" alternate history where the CSA survived the civil war would be one where almost immediately the CSA (and possibly the USA as well) would have collapsed into a bunch of balkanized horrifically backwater place.  If the northern part of the USA didn't fall apart as well, they'd certainly have radically slowed down the western expansion that happened in our history after the war, because they'd have been far more concerned with either protecting their southern border from the chaos that would have happened in the South, and possibly retaking territories there.

RPGpundit

Most of what you say actually fits in really well with the Aces & Eights history, and was stuff that we took into account, though you'd have to read the 25 pages of history to really get the full in-depth background that led up to the current state of affairs.  

True, the CSA does manage to stay together, but it was not an easy process.  Slavery also was not abolished in the South, and racism and intolerance for all races exists as seen in the Quirks and Detailed Character Backgrounds (though how you play this in your own game is up to you).  The west is full of competing elements, thanks to the Civil War, and is fought over more by various powers in the A&8 history than in real life, but is otherwise very similar.

Of course, you have to read it to really see the connections.

Quote from: Mark PlemmonsSlavery also was not abolished in the South,

Slavery was a HUGE part of Southern society/economy so I'm impressed by that alone. Like RPGPundit said, the tendency seems to be abolishing slavery with no real thought as to how that would affect everyday like in the south.  

Thanks for commenting.

Pete