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Here's a question: in A&8, as far as I can see, there's no way for ability scores to actually go up after character creation.

Is this correct, or did I miss something?

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;316561Here's a question: in A&8, as far as I can see, there's no way for ability scores to actually go up after character creation.

Is this correct, or did I miss something?

RPGPundit

I only have Hackmaster Basic but if you gain Building points in Aces & Eight wouldn't you use that to add to abilities. 1 BP per 5% increased up to X level then it becomes 1 BP per 3% or something like that.

Quote from: RPGPundit;316561Here's a question: in A&8, as far as I can see, there's no way for ability scores to actually go up after character creation.

That's the intent.  You'll be spending your Building Points on improving your skills (and possibly buying talents) instead.

Personally, I think it's more realistic.  With the possible exception of Strength, I don't think a person's real-life "ability scores" can increase significantly (if at all) over time, even with lots of practice.  For instance, writing books doesn't improve my INT or WIS (that's for sure...), but the more I do it the better my writing skill gets.  Throwing darts doesn't improve my overall DEX, but it might improve how good I am at that particular game.

Also, folks in A&8s aren't leveling up and fighting increasingly difficult foes, as they do in most fantasy games.

QuoteWith the possible exception of Strength, I don't think a person's real-life "ability scores" can increase significantly (if at all) over time, even with lots of practice.

You would be wrong, but that's ok. While there a certainly limits on potential. Someone learning yoga will become stronger, more flexible, dexterous and resilient (mentally and physically) when not practicing yoga. Someone going to school will learn, read and organize better outside of studying. It's considered common sense that when you get older, you get wiser.

Quote from: KrakaJak;316689You would be wrong, but that's ok. While there a certainly limits on potential. Someone learning yoga will become stronger, more flexible, dexterous and resilient (mentally and physically) when not practicing yoga. Someone going to school will learn, read and organize better outside of studying. It's considered common sense that when you get older, you get wiser.

I've never seen proof to subtantiate many of your claims. They're commonplace claims, sure, but being commonplace isn't the same thing as being correct. Show me, for example, the scientific study that proves people who practice yoga will become more flexible, more dextrous, and smarter than people who don't practice yoga*. I'm pretty certain that no such study exists, because this isn't a fact but, rather, self-perpetuated myth.  

Remember, it was once considered "common sense" that the application of red meat would cure warts, that throwing a pinch of salt over one's shoulder would ward off bad luck, and that having a black cat cross your path would bring bad luck. Further, seizures were once commonly held to be a sign of demon possession, the Black Plague was commonly thought to be a curse, and so on.

The common sense of today isn't so different. Why, just about a few years ago, common sense was that avoiding as many carbohydrates as you could in your daily diet while stocking up on proteins and dairy was a safe, effective, way to lose weight and build muscle. Today common sense is that eating like Dr. Atkins will likely bless you with heart attacks, congestive heart failure, and hypertension.

In short, common sense isn't necessarily good sense, just common.

*UC Davis did do a study concerning the benefits of yoga, but it only conclusively proved that yoga would build strength — much as almost any muscular exercise does.

Plemmons is the correct one actually.

Quote from: KrakaJak;316689While there a certainly limits on potential. Someone learning yoga will become stronger, more flexible, dexterous and resilient (mentally and physically) when not practicing yoga. .

 The mental resilance is pure conjecture. The other things you mentioned outside of building ones strength are the RPG equivalent of getting a higher athletics skill, specialisation: yoga. Nothing more.

Quote from: KrakaJak;316689Someone going to school will learn, read and organize better outside of studying. It's considered common sense that when you get older, you get wiser.

 Learning = gaining new skills. Not new potential. People who are "wise" are just able to apply thier life expierience better than most. And if you are old you tend to have lots of expierience to draw from.

  But just like stupid young people, I haven't noticed a shortage of stupid old ones either. The phrase: "Some people never learn." is around for a reason.

 Call it what you will: Talent, Potential, Or 'Ability'.  We all have inborn qualities. In RPG's that's usually reflected in "stats" or "ability" scores of some kind. And even strength training has its limits, some just don't have the genetic makeup to be the next Mr. universe or worlds strongest man.

It is only in the trained application of our natural abilities that we find true growth.

.

Quote from: JaegerThe mental resilance is pure conjecture. The other things you mentioned outside of building ones strength are the RPG equivalent of getting a higher athletics skill, specialisation: yoga. Nothing more.

Playing Drum Raises IQ (http://www.newswiretoday.com/news/13547/)

IQ being ones potential to learn.

Don't hang on the Yoga thing. That was just an example of modern exercise that would improve someones flexibility and strength (implying DEX and STR). It's also pretty good for conditioning. It is obviously an exercise routine based on calisthenics and stretching and has the common benefits therein.

You think too much in RPG like terms. Real peoples general aptitudes (attributes) and specific abilities (skills) rise together. Doing one does not preclude the other. Playing drums improves IQ (and playing a drumset is ridiculously good exercise). Playing Piano improve manual dexterity and mathematical comprehension. Regular exercise improves countless traits (strength, stamina and even complexion and reading comprehension). Developing skills develops aptitude for other related (and oftentimes unrelated) skills in the real world.

How would you classify those? Piano with a Mathematics specialty? An athletics with a reading specialty? A good drummer is going to be a good athlete. Someone who is a bad drummer who trains to be a good drummer is going to be a good athlete.

Mark Plemmons first mistake was in thinking he could make something 'more realistic' in a RPG ruleset. .

krakajak:

Attributes in games tend to be seen in several lights.

Some designers see them as maximum potential. Often, these designers limit skills with them (EG: Twilight 2000 2.0)
Others see them as baseline performance (EG: T2K 2.2, Traveller T4, Hârnmaster, SW d6).
Others see them as divorced from performance... (to a great extent, D&D 0E and D&D Basic Set)
Others still see them as one of two or more different components of performance (Arrowflight - you roll dice equal to stat, trying to score successes by rolling skill or less on each die.)
Others still see stats as the sole determinant of performance (GW Judge Dredd, T&T pre 5.5, C&C)

Some of these modes work fine with "stats can't be raised" while others are broke-dick when stats can't be raised.

Very few games model the rises in skill across multiple skills (D20 does... clumsily, but it does...). Some provide bonuses for other skills (BW/BE, a few others).

Quote from: KrakaJak;316987IQ being ones potential to learn.
.

I disagree - IQ is just a measurement of a persons current mental prowess. No one has any idea how to test the value of a persons true genetic potential. And I highly doubt someone is going to turn themselves into the next Hawking by playing drums.

Quote from: KrakaJak;316987...snip stuff...

Mark Plemmons first mistake was in thinking he could make something 'more realistic' in a RPG ruleset. .

 RPG's are imperfect reality emulators -I don't think anyone disagrees with that. But given the many ways "attributes" can be interpreted (as seen in Aramis's post), we may all have to agree to disagree with how 'realistic' Aces&8's is.

Mr. Plemmons reality emulaor, or rather how he chooses to emulate reality in his game, is no worse than any other RPG. Including your or my favorite system.

Quote from: Jaeger;317009I disagree - IQ is just a measurement of a persons current mental prowess.

Correction: "IQ" is a measurement of one's aptitude at solving a certain type of test, nothing more. We don't even have a working, universally accepted scientific definition of "intelligence"; it's folly to assume it can be measured in any objective manner.

Back to the OP.

No, in A&8's your Stats will Never go up. Due to injuries, they may go down at some point.

In HMB, after character creation, there is NO Way to increase stats.


Some advice; questions on A&8's and HMB are usually answered faster if you ask over on the K&Co forums.

Bah.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;317082Bah.

RPGPundit

Winner of the most succinct reply in this thread!  ;)

Talking about A&8s here is good; its good for theRPGsite because it brings people here who are into that excellent game, and its good for Kenzer because it acts as promotion for them. I would think the Kenzer people would be happy that there'd be talk about A&8s here, not in a rush to try to push people over to their boards.

RPGPundit

I was looking at the downloads section of the aces & eights website...

 Does the 2nd printing of the hardcover include all the corrected errata?

Or would i still need to print out the corrected chapters from your website?

Thanks.

Oh, how many of each die type do you really need to play the game without having to reroll any dice. (getting dice is not an issue - I just need to know how much!)

Quote from: RPGPundit;317904Talking about A&8s here is good; its good for theRPGsite because it brings people here who are into that excellent game, and its good for Kenzer because it acts as promotion for them. I would think the Kenzer people would be happy that there'd be talk about A&8s here, not in a rush to try to push people over to their boards.

Well, I'm not "A Kenzer People." I'm just a good fan and answer questions a bit when I can. All I was saying is that you get more people who have played/GM'ed it over there...

Quote from: Jaeger;317941I was looking at the downloads section of the aces & eights website...

 Does the 2nd printing of the hardcover include all the corrected errata?

Or would i still need to print out the corrected chapters from your website?

The second printing fixes all the previous errata (same printing as the softcover and the Player's Guidebook), but introduces some new errata, sadly.

The best link for that info is here:
http://www.kenzerco.com/forums/showthread.php?t=38415

Quote from: greylond;317080In HMB, after character creation, there is NO Way to increase stats.

Where did you get this idea?  As far as I know, you can always buy up your stats with bp's.

Quote from: mhensley;318044Where did you get this idea?  As far as I know, you can always buy up your stats with bp's.

That was my impression as well

Is there any major erratta? Something in the rules, from the book I have, that would actually make the game unplayable or that would really need to be changed for balance?

RPGPundit

Quote from: mhensley;318044Where did you get this idea?  As far as I know, you can always buy up your stats with bp's.

Where's that in the rules?

Work on an actual Errata Document, that will eventually be put up for Download is in process by the HackMaster Assoc Errata team...

Quote from: RPGPundit;318095Is there any major erratta? Something in the rules, from the book I have, that would actually make the game unplayable or that would really need to be changed for balance?

RPGPundit

No, not really. Not much.

Quote from: greylond;318116Where's that in the rules?

Where does it say that you can't?  ;)

Seriously, the advancement say you get 15 bp each level.  It doesn't actually say what you can do with them.  I assume that means you can use them to do anything that you could do in character creation- buy stats, buy skills, buy talents, buy proficiencies, etc.

It doesn't mention characters Not Being able to Fly either but that doesn't mean that your character can fly...

Absence of a Rule doesn't imply that it is allowed. The only place that Increasing Abilities is mentioned is under "Finalizing Ability Scores" which to me kinda means "Final"...

I seem to recall reading that in the character creation rules, that you can only buy up attributes during initial character creation.

RPGPundit

Ok, here is the official answer-

Quote from: David Kenzertechnically, the only time you can increase stats by spending BPs is in step 5 of character creation.

That said, buying up stats is a suckers play...if your players want to, I say let them!

In advanced, you get to roll one set of dice and assign them to each stat for improvement (except Looks, sorry, if the gawds made you ugly, tough luck!). Stat is matched to the die before the roll, not after. penetration applies.

http://www.kenzerco.com/forums/showthread.php?t=44376

Quote from: mhensley;318401Ok, here is the official answer-

http://www.kenzerco.com/forums/showthread.php?t=44376

I might be mistaken, but that is a thread about Hackmaster I believe...
Hackmaster doesn't have the same system as A&8's does it?

I was also looking at the A&8's character sheet, and I noticed that while the game uses hit locations all the hit points are part of a common pool and not assigned to hit locations.

 How does that work in the sytem when a PC gets shot in the head?  Am i wrong in assuming certain DMG modifiers based on the hit location?


.

Quote from: Jaeger;318445I might be mistaken, but that is a thread about Hackmaster I believe...
Hackmaster doesn't have the same system as A&8's does it?

No, but they're similar.  It was in response to a statement about HM earlier in this thread.

Quote from: Jaeger;318445I was also looking at the A&8's character sheet, and I noticed that while the game uses hit locations all the hit points are part of a common pool and not assigned to hit locations.

 How does that work in the sytem when a PC gets shot in the head?  Am i wrong in assuming certain DMG modifiers based on the hit location?

Wounds in a certain Hit Location go against the General HPs however, each time someone gets wounded you look it up on the location chart. Each chart has different Wound Effects which last until that Wound is healed, unless it is a Perm Effect(says so right on the chart). There generally isn't a special Wound Effect unless the damage is 3 or more. Also, Head Shots DOUBLE the Damage. Looking at the Head-GunShot Chart you find that a 10hp wound is instant Death, so a Gunshot of 5 HPs to the Head= Death. Doesn't matter that it isn't more than your Total, you just got your Head Blow OFF...

Other Wound Effects are anything from Falling Prone, Dropping whatever is in your hands to a Temp or Perm Stat Mod, etc...

Quote from: mhensley;318401Ok, here is the official answer-



http://www.kenzerco.com/forums/showthread.php?t=44376

Yea, don't listen to the PlayTesters. That question came up during PlayTest and I was pretty sure that they didn't change that one. There's been one or two things they changed but pretty much it is the same as the playtest.