Quote from: Zelen on April 04, 2022, 01:06:14 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 04, 2022, 11:21:21 AM
I think that what Zelen is trying to say is that some legitimate concerns were lumped in with the Satanic Panic to delegitimize them.

Seeing as how the Slippery Slope "Fallacy" has turned out to be an accurate prediction in so many ways I tend to agree with him. Even if I was one of the people screaming Slippery Slope "Fallacy"! In the 90's early 2000's.

Correct. The entire point of the "Satanic Panic" was to elevate the craziest perspectives in order to smear the reasonable perspectives. This is a perennial tactic for the powerful people & institutions that control media to demonize reasonable grassroots concerns and push their own agendas.

Funny how similar could be said of progressivism and left wing politics in general if we want to run apologia for them.

Quote from: Zelen on April 04, 2022, 01:06:14 PM
Look at what the supposedly-powerful Christian lobby was able to accomplish in the real world: They got a small-time book publisher to change the classification names of a couple of creatures. Does that strike you as particularly consequential?

Except that they did way more than get one single publisher to change the names of some monsters in their books. They went on to try to find supposed Satanic messages and imagery in everything from books, music and movies, and even logos. One nut once tried to convince my mom that a toothpaste's parent company's logo was satanic (it was this one → www.atlasobscura.com/articles/procter-gamble-satan-conspiracy-theory.amp).

Countless police resources were invested investigating bogus sexual abuse and incidents of human sacrifices that never happened. Numerous court cases where held over bogus allegations, including musicians accused of causing teenage suicides with their lyrics, and daycare center workers who's life was ruined over allegations of ritual abuse.

But I'm sure there were plenty of valid concerns behind all these witch hunts.

Quote from: Zelen on April 04, 2022, 01:06:14 PM
I'm not going to say weird and crazy people don't exist, they obviously do. But they are outliers and the media/propaganda purposefully drives & elevates this kind of behavior. During this time frame my Church ran D&D games and we saw no problem with heroes going and killing demons, because this is a good and heroic thing to do.

Again, same could be said about progressive politics concerned about actual police targeting of black people or persecution of homosexuals, which historically did happen. But just because some progressive groups did fight for actual gay right or against real police brutality that doesn't mean that the crazies that later took over don't exist and don't have an impact on society. And those crazies have existed and have had influence far less time than the Christian crazies.

Quote from: VisionStorm on April 04, 2022, 12:51:35 PM

Quote from: Mishihari on April 04, 2022, 03:53:07 AM

Quote from: VisionStorm on April 04, 2022, 01:39:35 AM
Nah, the Satanic Panic was an aptly named real thing that was about Christians forcing their views down people's throats as they've been doing for centuries before SJWs came into the scene. Which led to widespread social panic and even people being persecuted over made up allegations of sexual abuse and human sacrifice. If anything wokeism (and to a certain extent the now fading and barely relevant New Atheist movement) is at least in part a deranged backlash caused by the collective trauma of Western society being under the thumb of Christianity for over a thousand years trying to squash every sexual impulse and drive for free thought that humanity has, mixed up with White Guilt over slavery and the exaggerated belief that men purposefully oppressed women throughout the entire span of human history.

Well, as a devout Christian and an avid RPG hobbyist I'll just say I have a much different view on this and view Christianity as a very positive thing overall.  It's useful to keep in mind that Christians are not a monolithic group.  There are things almost all of us have in common, but there are also vastly different philosophies and worldviews.  Frex, when I and one other kid at my church played D&D as teens in the '80's (though not in the same group), we both talked about it openly and absolutely no one had a problem with it.

The fact that Christians aren't a monolith and that not all of them are deranged religious zealots doesn't remove the fact that Christianity was in many ways an oppressive force that remained in power in Europe for over a thousand years and committed numerous atrocities to retain their control that make the decade or two we've endured of online ravings and cancellations carried out by rainbow haired idiots with pronouns in their bio look like a cakewalk and a day at a spa. As much as I despise these SJW cretins all I've suffered from them is the mental anguish of reading their deranged social media posts, enduring their impact on entertainment media, including gaming, living in fear of potential cancellations and watching all (or at least a significant chunk) the progress achieved by Western society and the Enlightenment over the last few hundred years go down the drain in just a decade or two. If I had been alive a few hundred years ago I would've been tortured, have my fingers chopped up for writing heretical views or maybe burned at the stake for certain spiritual experiences I've had.

Even as a kid I had to endure social pressure into conforming to Christian views and saw the impact of the Satanic Panic, not in gaming per se, but other areas of society. But at least I was shielded by the civil rights that SJWs have sought to destroy and won't be there once Christian fundamentalism makes a comeback, propelled by the notion that they were "right" all along and use the excesses of the SJW cretins as an excuse to impose their own (again).

There is no country on Earth that does not have social pressure forcing you to conform to the cultural views.

The difference is that the godless heathens caused far more death and destruction then could ever be laid at the feet of Christians.

Quote from: RPGPundit on April 03, 2022, 02:14:43 PM
You're incorrect. The Wokist Entryist goals for RPGs is not "so certain people can't play", it is "so tabletop RPGs as we know them will cease to exist".

Think of SJWs having three goals in descending order:
1. Convert RPGs to some form that they find acceptable (but of course no one else will want).
2. Destroy RPGs.
3. Leave RPGs as they are.

Due to their general incompetence, it's often hard to tell 1 and 2 apart.

Quote from: Zelen on April 04, 2022, 06:23:43 AM

The Satanic Panic was always about embarrassing Christians for predicting that promoting moral degeneracy in media would lead to negative outcomes in society. Turns out they were 100% correct in their concerns.

The fact that the phrase "Satanic Panic" is even used is a demonstration that this was a media-led campaign to discredit middle-America & Christians simply by framing their concerns as ridiculous.

In that sense, Wokism is a continuation of the "Satanic Panic" because the same bad actors that brought us the Satanic Panic by demonizing legitimate concerns are now bringing us more of the same type of subversive propaganda in media.

Correct, "Look at the crazy Christians" is one of the  mainstream media's favorite games...

Quote from: Omega on April 03, 2022, 10:04:14 PM
You are an idiot then if you believe that.

Yes the media fed off it. But I can very much confirm that the churches were in on this wherever the fearmongering took hold.

Which Churches though?

Zelen is 100% correct. No Large national, international, or mainstream Christian Church released a statement of any kind even mentioning that RPG's were the devil.

Did some small/regional/independent Churches whose pastors got their preaching certificates via mail order fall into the media hype, and cause misery for their younger parishioners??

Yes, that also happened. Unfortunate, but that was absolutely the intent of the media fearmongering.

Quote from: Omega on April 03, 2022, 10:04:14 PM
As I have mentioned in other threads on the subject. One of my players way back became a victim of this years after. He was taken away to be "deprogrammed"... And I believe the mother of two of my other players moved out of state to "protect" them. The local library even wrecked the meeting room we'd rent and framed us for it. Probably more I never heard of. Stackpole has a web page dedicated to his own war on on the satanic panic.

Pundit was right in his video: It was all busy body Karens...

One look at the "Christians" that were pushing the D&D is the devil narrative will show that they were all a bunch of Theological nobodies.

http://www.rpgstudies.net/stackpole/pulling_report.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dungeons_%26_Dragons_controversies

The "satanic panic" effect on D&D was very regional.

For me - I belong to what many would consider a very conservative Christian church. The "D&D is the devil" didn't even register at the time. My Church had nothing to say.

Most didn't, as it was obvious nonsense from the jump.

Unfortunately for those that lived in areas with gullible Churchians, it sucked.

And so the: "Those filthy Christians burn my books.." ect., gets trotted out every time the Satanic panic gets mentioned in RPG discussions.

Of course in hindsight this was the goal all along - To try and permanently poison the well for Christianity amongst the young in the hobby.

Which explains why a bunch of religious charlatans that belonged to no mainstream Christian church were suddenly given a mainstream media bullhorn.

Quote from: Jaeger on April 04, 2022, 05:47:33 PM...Quotes...

You have your quote attribution incorrect.

Quote from: Shasarak on April 04, 2022, 04:56:46 PM

Quote from: VisionStorm on April 04, 2022, 12:51:35 PM

Quote from: Mishihari on April 04, 2022, 03:53:07 AM

Quote from: VisionStorm on April 04, 2022, 01:39:35 AM
Nah, the Satanic Panic was an aptly named real thing that was about Christians forcing their views down people's throats as they've been doing for centuries before SJWs came into the scene. Which led to widespread social panic and even people being persecuted over made up allegations of sexual abuse and human sacrifice. If anything wokeism (and to a certain extent the now fading and barely relevant New Atheist movement) is at least in part a deranged backlash caused by the collective trauma of Western society being under the thumb of Christianity for over a thousand years trying to squash every sexual impulse and drive for free thought that humanity has, mixed up with White Guilt over slavery and the exaggerated belief that men purposefully oppressed women throughout the entire span of human history.

Well, as a devout Christian and an avid RPG hobbyist I'll just say I have a much different view on this and view Christianity as a very positive thing overall.  It's useful to keep in mind that Christians are not a monolithic group.  There are things almost all of us have in common, but there are also vastly different philosophies and worldviews.  Frex, when I and one other kid at my church played D&D as teens in the '80's (though not in the same group), we both talked about it openly and absolutely no one had a problem with it.

The fact that Christians aren't a monolith and that not all of them are deranged religious zealots doesn't remove the fact that Christianity was in many ways an oppressive force that remained in power in Europe for over a thousand years and committed numerous atrocities to retain their control that make the decade or two we've endured of online ravings and cancellations carried out by rainbow haired idiots with pronouns in their bio look like a cakewalk and a day at a spa. As much as I despise these SJW cretins all I've suffered from them is the mental anguish of reading their deranged social media posts, enduring their impact on entertainment media, including gaming, living in fear of potential cancellations and watching all (or at least a significant chunk) the progress achieved by Western society and the Enlightenment over the last few hundred years go down the drain in just a decade or two. If I had been alive a few hundred years ago I would've been tortured, have my fingers chopped up for writing heretical views or maybe burned at the stake for certain spiritual experiences I've had.

Even as a kid I had to endure social pressure into conforming to Christian views and saw the impact of the Satanic Panic, not in gaming per se, but other areas of society. But at least I was shielded by the civil rights that SJWs have sought to destroy and won't be there once Christian fundamentalism makes a comeback, propelled by the notion that they were "right" all along and use the excesses of the SJW cretins as an excuse to impose their own (again).

There is no country on Earth that does not have social pressure forcing you to conform to the cultural views.

The difference is that the godless heathens caused far more death and destruction then could ever be laid at the feet of Christians.

That's just whataboutism by appealing to the actions of people motivated by a murderous ideology who also happened to be godless heathens and ascribing those actions to all godless heathens in general, as if there are any examples of comparable atrocities committed by other godless heathens who aren't communists. Which doesn't absolve Christians regardless, or change the fact that they're some of the worst perpetrators when it comes to forcing their views on others, then playing the victim when they don't let them.

Quote from: VisionStorm on April 04, 2022, 06:49:13 PM

Quote from: Shasarak on April 04, 2022, 04:56:46 PM
There is no country on Earth that does not have social pressure forcing you to conform to the cultural views.

The difference is that the godless heathens caused far more death and destruction then could ever be laid at the feet of Christians.

That's just whataboutism by appealing to the actions of people motivated by a murderous ideology who also happened to be godless heathens and ascribing those actions to all godless heathens in general, as if there are any examples of comparable atrocities committed by other godless heathens who aren't communists. Which doesn't absolve Christians regardless, or change the fact that they're some of the worst perpetrators when it comes to forcing their views on others, then playing the victim when they don't let them.

Ha, what aboutism indeed.

The only difference is that Christians make you feel bad for your badwrongthink instead of just putting you in a gulag camp so that they can harvest your organs at their leisure.

Quote from: Jaeger on April 04, 2022, 05:47:33 PM

Quote from: Zelen on April 04, 2022, 06:23:43 AM

The Satanic Panic was always about embarrassing Christians for predicting that promoting moral degeneracy in media would lead to negative outcomes in society. Turns out they were 100% correct in their concerns.

The fact that the phrase "Satanic Panic" is even used is a demonstration that this was a media-led campaign to discredit middle-America & Christians simply by framing their concerns as ridiculous.

In that sense, Wokism is a continuation of the "Satanic Panic" because the same bad actors that brought us the Satanic Panic by demonizing legitimate concerns are now bringing us more of the same type of subversive propaganda in media.

Correct, "Look at the crazy Christians" is one of the  mainstream media's favorite games...

Quote from: Omega on April 03, 2022, 10:04:14 PM
You are an idiot then if you believe that.

Yes the media fed off it. But I can very much confirm that the churches were in on this wherever the fearmongering took hold.

Which Churches though?

Omega is 100% correct. No Large national, international, or mainstream Christian Church released a statement of any kind even mentioning that RPG's were the devil.

Did some small/regional/independent Churches whose pastors got their preaching certificates via mail order fall into the media hype, and cause misery for their younger parishioners??

Yes, that also happened. Unfortunate, but that was absolutely the intent of the media fearmongering.

Quote from: Omega on April 03, 2022, 10:04:14 PM
As I have mentioned in other threads on the subject. One of my players way back became a victim of this years after. He was taken away to be "deprogrammed"... And I believe the mother of two of my other players moved out of state to "protect" them. The local library even wrecked the meeting room we'd rent and framed us for it. Probably more I never heard of. Stackpole has a web page dedicated to his own war on on the satanic panic.

Pundit was right in his video: It was all busy body Karens...

One look at the "Christians" that were pushing the D&D is the devil narrative will show that they were all a bunch of Theological nobodies.

http://www.rpgstudies.net/stackpole/pulling_report.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dungeons_%26_Dragons_controversies

The "satanic panic" effect on D&D was very regional.

For me - I belong to what many would consider a very conservative Christian church. The "D&D is the devil" didn't even register at the time. My Church had nothing to say.

Most didn't, as it was obvious nonsense from the jump.

Unfortunately for those that lived in areas with gullible Churchians, it sucked.

And so the: "Those filthy Christians burn my books.." ect., gets trotted out every time the Satanic panic gets mentioned in RPG discussions.

Of course in hindsight this was the goal all along - To try and permanently poison the well for Christianity amongst the young in the hobby.

Which explains why a bunch of religious charlatans that belonged to no mainstream Christian church were suddenly given a mainstream media bullhorn.

This is just shifting the goalposts to "You can't name a specific Church mandating this and I didn't see at my church, therefore the Satanic Panic as good as didn't happen or can't be blamed on Christians (who did push it)." While also trotting out this "media likes to castigate Christians" narrative, like that means that Christians dindo nuttin!

It's basically the good old Christians are actually the victim when called out on their BS. Yet you expect me to believe that they're better than the SJWs somehow, when they've committed far worse atrocities throughout history for far longer than SJWs, and not only do they not accept responsibility for them, but always have some sort of apologia and blame shifting to wipe their hands of it as well.

Vision Storm, your out of control and uniformed bias is really showing through here, and that's the last thing I have to say on that topic to you on your points.  You are doing the online equivalent of foaming at the mouth here, and it's sad given how you can be reasonable in so many other ways.

Quote from: Zelen on April 04, 2022, 06:00:58 PM

Quote from: Jaeger on April 04, 2022, 05:47:33 PM...Quotes...

You have your quote attribution incorrect.

You're right!  fixed I hope...

Suckes that to parse quotes you have to do everything by hand...

Quote from: Zelen on April 04, 2022, 01:06:14 PM
The entire point of the "Satanic Panic" was to elevate the craziest perspectives in order to smear the reasonable perspectives.

What were the "reasonable perspectives" of the Satanic Panic (or whatever you prefer to call it)?

Quote from: VisionStorm on April 04, 2022, 06:56:55 PM

Quote from: Jaeger on April 04, 2022, 05:47:33 PM

Quote from: Zelen on April 04, 2022, 06:23:43 AM

The Satanic Panic was always about embarrassing Christians for predicting that promoting moral degeneracy in media would lead to negative outcomes in society. Turns out they were 100% correct in their concerns.

The fact that the phrase "Satanic Panic" is even used is a demonstration that this was a media-led campaign to discredit middle-America & Christians simply by framing their concerns as ridiculous.

In that sense, Wokism is a continuation of the "Satanic Panic" because the same bad actors that brought us the Satanic Panic by demonizing legitimate concerns are now bringing us more of the same type of subversive propaganda in media.

Correct, "Look at the crazy Christians" is one of the  mainstream media's favorite games...

Quote from: Omega on April 03, 2022, 10:04:14 PM
You are an idiot then if you believe that.

Yes the media fed off it. But I can very much confirm that the churches were in on this wherever the fearmongering took hold.

Which Churches though?

Omega is 100% correct. No Large national, international, or mainstream Christian Church released a statement of any kind even mentioning that RPG's were the devil.

Did some small/regional/independent Churches whose pastors got their preaching certificates via mail order fall into the media hype, and cause misery for their younger parishioners??

Yes, that also happened. Unfortunate, but that was absolutely the intent of the media fearmongering.

Quote from: Omega on April 03, 2022, 10:04:14 PM
As I have mentioned in other threads on the subject. One of my players way back became a victim of this years after. He was taken away to be "deprogrammed"... And I believe the mother of two of my other players moved out of state to "protect" them. The local library even wrecked the meeting room we'd rent and framed us for it. Probably more I never heard of. Stackpole has a web page dedicated to his own war on on the satanic panic.

Pundit was right in his video: It was all busy body Karens...

One look at the "Christians" that were pushing the D&D is the devil narrative will show that they were all a bunch of Theological nobodies.

http://www.rpgstudies.net/stackpole/pulling_report.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dungeons_%26_Dragons_controversies

The "satanic panic" effect on D&D was very regional.

For me - I belong to what many would consider a very conservative Christian church. The "D&D is the devil" didn't even register at the time. My Church had nothing to say.

Most didn't, as it was obvious nonsense from the jump.

Unfortunately for those that lived in areas with gullible Churchians, it sucked.

And so the: "Those filthy Christians burn my books.." ect., gets trotted out every time the Satanic panic gets mentioned in RPG discussions.

Of course in hindsight this was the goal all along - To try and permanently poison the well for Christianity amongst the young in the hobby.

Which explains why a bunch of religious charlatans that belonged to no mainstream Christian church were suddenly given a mainstream media bullhorn.

This is just shifting the goalposts to "You can't name a specific Church mandating this and I didn't see at my church, therefore the Satanic Panic as good as didn't happen or can't be blamed on Christians (who did push it)." While also trotting out this "media likes to castigate Christians" narrative, like that means that Christians dindo nuttin!

It's basically the good old Christians are actually the victim when called out on their BS. Yet you expect me to believe that they're better than the SJWs somehow, when they've committed far worse atrocities throughout history for far longer than SJWs, and not only do they not accept responsibility for them, but always have some sort of apologia and blame shifting to wipe their hands of it as well.

Dude, there's no goalpost moving. As I've mentioned previously, my Catholic priest actively defended the D&D player from his proto-Karen mother.

And that's primarily who was behind the Satanic Panic... the fringe moral busybodies who just happened to be Christians. The media was happy to promote them as mainstream Christians because, just like today, the MSM lies.

Try actually searching for churches that condemned D&D. Go on. I'll wait. At best you're going to find fringe loons on message boards. Maybe you'll find a Chick Tract from a group so looney it makes the Ancient Aliens guys look credible by comparison (seriously, they also claimthat the Catholic Church started the Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, Islam, the KKK, the mafia, and Communism in their quest to take over the world and deliver it to Satan).

Did the Satanic Panic happen? Certainly in some regions. But it wasn't the churches pushing it. It was Church Ladies.

Quote from: Zelen on April 04, 2022, 01:06:14 PM

Correct. The entire point of the "Satanic Panic" was to elevate the craziest perspectives in order to smear the reasonable perspectives. This is a perennial tactic for the powerful people & institutions that control media to demonize reasonable grassroots concerns and push their own agendas.

Except this wasnt some grassroots concern. It was flat out loony bin from the get go and just escalated from there. Essentially a variation on the prior and following "Satanic Panics" against music, comics, you name it. Usually theres some nut case at the core that for god unknown reasons people start believing.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 04, 2022, 01:17:10 PM
On the other hand the media might very well blowed it out of proportion to get more eyes/sell more news papers (if it bleeds it leads).

There isnt any might about this. 60 minutes had that nasty little piece on D&D and others did too. Here it is, a bit garbled in places but this and a few others just egged it all on.

Quote from: VisionStorm on April 04, 2022, 06:56:55 PM
This is just shifting the goalposts to "You can't name a specific Church mandating this and I didn't see at my church, therefore the Satanic Panic as good as didn't happen or can't be blamed on Christians (who did push it)." While also trotting out this "media likes to castigate Christians" narrative, like that means that Christians dindo nuttin!

It's basically the good old Christians are actually the victim when called out on their BS. Yet you expect me to believe that they're better than the SJWs somehow, when they've committed far worse atrocities throughout history for far longer than SJWs, and not only do they not accept responsibility for them, but always have some sort of apologia and blame shifting to wipe their hands of it as well.

The Stanic Panic definitely  happened and many innocent RPG books were burned and on the other hand the good old Christians did manage to prevent Satan from creating Hell on Earth so your welcome I guess.