Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on April 03, 2022, 01:19:59 PM
Orcs were not created by racists, were not intended to be racist, and don't correlate with racist attitudes. Also, dwarves are not Nazi propaganda aimed at Irish Jews. Good to know.

Nazis famously hated the Irish.

Quote from: migo on April 03, 2022, 02:35:23 PM

Quote from: VisionStorm on April 03, 2022, 12:04:03 PM

Quote from: hedgehobbit on April 03, 2022, 11:32:56 AM

Quote from: mcbobbo on April 02, 2022, 12:55:16 PMI fully agree that wokism is the new Satanic Panic.

I don't see them as at all similar. The Satanic Panic was a group of people outside the RPG world that were trying to convince people to not play D&D. They only managed to make D&D seem more cool and make the game more popular.

The Wokists or SJWs or whatever you want to call them, are a group that is inside the RPG industry and their goal is to make sure that certain people are not allowed to play RPGs. Even all the nonsense about orcs being racist is just a tool used to exclude certain people from the RPG community. And they have been overwhelmingly successful. Even the guy that made this video agrees with their central premise that people should be kicked out of the RPG hobby because of their personal beliefs. He only disagrees with where to draw the line.

That's not exactly true. The Satanic Panic did have a negative impact on D&D (IIRC), forcing TSR to change the terms Demons and Fiends for other stuff, and also affected society as a whole beyond RPGs. Wokists involved in this stuff are also not exclusively industry insiders, but largely operate outside of it, threatening companies and demanding everyone else conforms to their views. And those inside the industry largely infiltrated it or fell for the brainwashing.

The only real difference is that wokists managed to be more thorough than the church ladies. But they're still religious fanatics trying to dictate what everyone else should think, say or be allowed to consume.

I'm not sure about this being the case. If I think of some of the top SJWs in RPGs they've been involved for a long time.

Cam Banks started out writing for Dragonlance decades ago and worked for MWP before the SJW infiltration of the hobby was obvious.
Fred Hicks was developing FATE as an off-shoot of FUDGE also long before it was obvious.
Cat Tobin was writing for The Circular back in 2005, so I'd assume Wikipedia saying she was working for UK gaming conventions in the '90s is true.

Now maybe they are just a minority and the majority came from the outside, but I'm pretty sure they were all invited in by the likes of Banks, Hicks and Tobin, rather than forcing their way in from the outside.

That would be covered at least in part by the "or fell for the brainwashing" portion I mentioned in my post. Even if some of them were already there and had progressive politics from the get go that isn't entirely the same thing as operating as SJWs that whole time, cuz this woke crap didn't really take hold till like a decade ago (arguably a bit earlier for some). And simply being "progressive" in the old sense of the word isn't exactly the same thing as being SJW in the sense it's understood today, or we might as well go back to slavery and revoke women's suffrage just to stick it to the SJWs cuz everything they claim to uphold is just tainted now.

And regardless of how many of them there are in the industry, people who actually work in RPGs are a drop in the bucket compared to the number of people outside of it exerting pressure and pushing this stuff. WotC didn't just decide one day to just put up a disclaimer on their old TSR products entirely on their own. They did so due to outside pressure from people raising a stink in social media, cuz some idiot who did not work for them at the time complained about Oriental Adventures.

Quote from: Zelen on April 03, 2022, 10:04:14 PM
The Satanic Panic was always about embarrassing Christians for predicting that promoting moral degeneracy in media would lead to negative outcomes in society. Turns out they were 100% correct in their concerns.

The fact that the phrase "Satanic Panic" is even used is a demonstration that this was a media-led campaign to discredit middle-America & Christians simply by framing their concerns as ridiculous.

In that sense, Wokism is a continuation of the "Satanic Panic" because the same bad actors that brought us the Satanic Panic by demonizing legitimate concerns are now bringing us more of the same type of subversive propaganda in media.

Nah, the Satanic Panic was an aptly named real thing that was about Christians forcing their views down people's throats as they've been doing for centuries before SJWs came into the scene. Which led to widespread social panic and even people being persecuted over made up allegations of sexual abuse and human sacrifice. If anything wokeism (and to a certain extent the now fading and barely relevant New Atheist movement) is at least in part a deranged backlash caused by the collective trauma of Western society being under the thumb of Christianity for over a thousand years trying to squash every sexual impulse and drive for free thought that humanity has, mixed up with White Guilt over slavery and the exaggerated belief that men purposefully oppressed women throughout the entire span of human history.

And the idea that the Satanic Panic was somehow some sort of made up conspiracy concocted by the media to discredit Christianity is laughable revisionist history that's a testament to how fucked society is going to be once this woke nonsense gets squashed and the pendulum swings back with Christian puritanism making a comeback.

Quote from: VisionStorm on April 04, 2022, 01:39:35 AM
Nah, the Satanic Panic was an aptly named real thing that was about Christians forcing their views down people's throats as they've been doing for centuries before SJWs came into the scene. Which led to widespread social panic and even people being persecuted over made up allegations of sexual abuse and human sacrifice. If anything wokeism (and to a certain extent the now fading and barely relevant New Atheist movement) is at least in part a deranged backlash caused by the collective trauma of Western society being under the thumb of Christianity for over a thousand years trying to squash every sexual impulse and drive for free thought that humanity has, mixed up with White Guilt over slavery and the exaggerated belief that men purposefully oppressed women throughout the entire span of human history.

Well, as a devout Christian and an avid RPG hobbyist I'll just say I have a much different view on this and view Christianity as a very positive thing overall.  It's useful to keep in mind that Christians are not a monolithic group.  There are things almost all of us have in common, but there are also vastly different philosophies and worldviews.  Frex, when I and one other kid at my church played D&D as teens in the '80's (though not in the same group), we both talked about it openly and absolutely no one had a problem with it.

Quote from: VisionStorm on April 04, 2022, 01:39:35 AM

That would be covered at least in part by the "or fell for the brainwashing" portion I mentioned in my post. Even if some of them were already there and had progressive politics from the get go that isn't entirely the same thing as operating as SJWs that whole time, cuz this woke crap didn't really take hold till like a decade ago (arguably a bit earlier for some). And simply being "progressive" in the old sense of the word isn't exactly the same thing as being SJW in the sense it's understood today, or we might as well go back to slavery and revoke women's suffrage just to stick it to the SJWs cuz everything they claim to uphold is just tainted now.

No SJWs were SJWs from the get go. They all started out with progressive politics and then morphed into the more extreme forms. The concept of being an SJW wasn't even floated until the early 2000s, and that took a while to develop into what we see today. And that developed everywhere, it wasn't just in academics and they then inserted themselves in various feels, you had proto-SJWs turning into SJWs in every field.

Some hobbies were much more resistant to them than others, TTRPGs were unusually susceptible because most male players really wanted to get more women in the hobby, so they were very receptive to any ideas about making it more inclusive. That came as much from within as from the outside.

Quote from: Wrath of God on April 03, 2022, 06:44:24 AM
Satanic Panic was first to touch RPGs, but overall some populist outrages are common every few years in democracies, and there are always hyenas willing to exploit or even simply cause one.

In its modern form it goes back at least to the early 1900s in much more low key form. That is till that eras version of femnazis started murdering people. Theres always some boogyman that needs censoring.
Movies. Books, Comics, Music etc, and before RPGs it was comics probably and before that books and on and on. Usually some focus on just one, with the rest getting tertiary flack. Just as the Satanic Panic prior branched out to music. Unless Im getting my eras reversed. Its a little before my time!

They need something popular as their boogyman. It would not surprise me if the next wave goes after superheroes or something else thats popular in 8 years.

Quote from: Zelen on April 03, 2022, 10:04:14 PM
The Satanic Panic was always about embarrassing Christians for predicting that promoting moral degeneracy in media would lead to negative outcomes in society. Turns out they were 100% correct in their concerns.

The fact that the phrase "Satanic Panic" is even used is a demonstration that this was a media-led campaign to discredit middle-America & Christians simply by framing their concerns as ridiculous.

In that sense, Wokism is a continuation of the "Satanic Panic" because the same bad actors that brought us the Satanic Panic by demonizing legitimate concerns are now bringing us more of the same type of subversive propaganda in media.

You are an idiot then if you believe that.

Yes the media fed off it. But I can very much confirm that the churches were in on this wherever the fearmongering took hold. As I have mentioned in other threads on the subject. One of my players way back became a victim of this years after. He was taken away to be "deprogrammed"... And I believe the mother of two of my other players moved out of state to "protect" them. The local library even wrecked the meeting room we'd rent and framed us for it. Probably more I never heard of. Stackpole has a web page dedicated to his own war on on the satanic panic.

Quote from: RPGPundit on April 01, 2022, 06:58:29 PM
A published study that polled gamers and non-gamers of different ethnicities revealed what I already suspected about the level of public support for RPG Wokist claims.
#dnd #ttrpg #osr

Dear RPGPundit, I would be grateful if you can report the source of your statement about the lowering of WOTC unit sold by recent books. I've tryied to find those data but without success.

Quote from: Zelen on April 03, 2022, 10:04:14 PM
The Satanic Panic was always about embarrassing Christians for predicting that promoting moral degeneracy in media would lead to negative outcomes in society. Turns out they were 100% correct in their concerns.

The fact that the phrase "Satanic Panic" is even used is a demonstration that this was a media-led campaign to discredit middle-America & Christians simply by framing their concerns as ridiculous.

In that sense, Wokism is a continuation of the "Satanic Panic" because the same bad actors that brought us the Satanic Panic by demonizing legitimate concerns are now bringing us more of the same type of subversive propaganda in media.

While the abstract concept of "media drives culture" is a possibly interesting topic, the "concerns" of the Satanic Panickers were no more "legitimate" than those of the Wokists.

Quote from: Zalman on April 04, 2022, 10:43:08 AM

Quote from: Zelen on April 03, 2022, 10:04:14 PM
The Satanic Panic was always about embarrassing Christians for predicting that promoting moral degeneracy in media would lead to negative outcomes in society. Turns out they were 100% correct in their concerns.

The fact that the phrase "Satanic Panic" is even used is a demonstration that this was a media-led campaign to discredit middle-America & Christians simply by framing their concerns as ridiculous.

In that sense, Wokism is a continuation of the "Satanic Panic" because the same bad actors that brought us the Satanic Panic by demonizing legitimate concerns are now bringing us more of the same type of subversive propaganda in media.

While the abstract concept of "media drives culture" is a possibly interesting topic, the "concerns" of the Satanic Panickers were no more "legitimate" than those of the Wokists.

I think that what Zelen is trying to say is that some legitimate concerns were lumped in with the Satanic Panic to delegitimize them.

Seeing as how the Slippery Slope "Fallacy" has turned out to be an accurate prediction in so many ways I tend to agree with him. Even if I was one of the people screaming Slippery Slope "Fallacy"! In the 90's early 2000's.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 04, 2022, 11:21:21 AM

Quote from: Zalman on April 04, 2022, 10:43:08 AM

Quote from: Zelen on April 03, 2022, 10:04:14 PM
The Satanic Panic was always about embarrassing Christians for predicting that promoting moral degeneracy in media would lead to negative outcomes in society. Turns out they were 100% correct in their concerns.

The fact that the phrase "Satanic Panic" is even used is a demonstration that this was a media-led campaign to discredit middle-America & Christians simply by framing their concerns as ridiculous.

In that sense, Wokism is a continuation of the "Satanic Panic" because the same bad actors that brought us the Satanic Panic by demonizing legitimate concerns are now bringing us more of the same type of subversive propaganda in media.

While the abstract concept of "media drives culture" is a possibly interesting topic, the "concerns" of the Satanic Panickers were no more "legitimate" than those of the Wokists.

I think that what Zelen is trying to say is that some legitimate concerns were lumped in with the Satanic Panic to delegitimize them.

Seeing as how the Slippery Slope "Fallacy" has turned out to be an accurate prediction in so many ways I tend to agree with him. Even if I was one of the people screaming Slippery Slope "Fallacy"! In the 90's early 2000's.

Plus, those who happened to be accurate in loosely identifying a problem are not always correct in their deeper analysis of the problem, much less their solutions for it.  Especially when a particular solution falls into the category of "let me determine how I can tell other people how to live for their own good". 

There's two kinds of people:  Those that want to control others and those that understand that's almost always a bad idea.  Power of any kind attracts the first type. 

Which is all a separate issue from the fact that the media bigwigs would use any stick to try to whack Christian fundamentalists.  If they can find a stick that has legit uses on particular targets in the zone, so much the better.  This is similar to but opposite the way they will try to use any stick to whack opponents of SJW's, but the thought process is the same--will to power.

Quote from: Mishihari on April 04, 2022, 03:53:07 AM

Quote from: VisionStorm on April 04, 2022, 01:39:35 AM
Nah, the Satanic Panic was an aptly named real thing that was about Christians forcing their views down people's throats as they've been doing for centuries before SJWs came into the scene. Which led to widespread social panic and even people being persecuted over made up allegations of sexual abuse and human sacrifice. If anything wokeism (and to a certain extent the now fading and barely relevant New Atheist movement) is at least in part a deranged backlash caused by the collective trauma of Western society being under the thumb of Christianity for over a thousand years trying to squash every sexual impulse and drive for free thought that humanity has, mixed up with White Guilt over slavery and the exaggerated belief that men purposefully oppressed women throughout the entire span of human history.

Well, as a devout Christian and an avid RPG hobbyist I'll just say I have a much different view on this and view Christianity as a very positive thing overall.  It's useful to keep in mind that Christians are not a monolithic group.  There are things almost all of us have in common, but there are also vastly different philosophies and worldviews.  Frex, when I and one other kid at my church played D&D as teens in the '80's (though not in the same group), we both talked about it openly and absolutely no one had a problem with it.

The fact that Christians aren't a monolith and that not all of them are deranged religious zealots doesn't remove the fact that Christianity was in many ways an oppressive force that remained in power in Europe for over a thousand years and committed numerous atrocities to retain their control that make the decade or two we've endured of online ravings and cancellations carried out by rainbow haired idiots with pronouns in their bio look like a cakewalk and a day at a spa. As much as I despise these SJW cretins all I've suffered from them is the mental anguish of reading their deranged social media posts, enduring their impact on entertainment media, including gaming, living in fear of potential cancellations and watching all (or at least a significant chunk) the progress achieved by Western society and the Enlightenment over the last few hundred years go down the drain in just a decade or two. If I had been alive a few hundred years ago I would've been tortured, have my fingers chopped up for writing heretical views or maybe burned at the stake for certain spiritual experiences I've had.

Even as a kid I had to endure social pressure into conforming to Christian views and saw the impact of the Satanic Panic, not in gaming per se, but other areas of society. But at least I was shielded by the civil rights that SJWs have sought to destroy and won't be there once Christian fundamentalism makes a comeback, propelled by the notion that they were "right" all along and use the excesses of the SJW cretins as an excuse to impose their own (again).

Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 04, 2022, 11:21:21 AM
I think that what Zelen is trying to say is that some legitimate concerns were lumped in with the Satanic Panic to delegitimize them.

Seeing as how the Slippery Slope "Fallacy" has turned out to be an accurate prediction in so many ways I tend to agree with him. Even if I was one of the people screaming Slippery Slope "Fallacy"! In the 90's early 2000's.

Correct. The entire point of the "Satanic Panic" was to elevate the craziest perspectives in order to smear the reasonable perspectives. This is a perennial tactic for the powerful people & institutions that control media to demonize reasonable grassroots concerns and push their own agendas.

Look at what the supposedly-powerful Christian lobby was able to accomplish in the real world: They got a small-time book publisher to change the classification names of a couple of creatures. Does that strike you as particularly consequential?

I'm not going to say weird and crazy people don't exist, they obviously do. But they are outliers and the media/propaganda purposefully drives & elevates this kind of behavior. During this time frame my Church ran D&D games and we saw no problem with heroes going and killing demons, because this is a good and heroic thing to do.

Quote from: Zelen on April 04, 2022, 01:06:14 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 04, 2022, 11:21:21 AM
I think that what Zelen is trying to say is that some legitimate concerns were lumped in with the Satanic Panic to delegitimize them.

Seeing as how the Slippery Slope "Fallacy" has turned out to be an accurate prediction in so many ways I tend to agree with him. Even if I was one of the people screaming Slippery Slope "Fallacy"! In the 90's early 2000's.

Correct. The entire point of the "Satanic Panic" was to elevate the craziest perspectives in order to smear the reasonable perspectives. This is a perennial tactic for the powerful people & institutions that control media to demonize reasonable grassroots concerns and push their own agendas.

Look at what the supposedly-powerful Christian lobby was able to accomplish in the real world: They got a small-time book publisher to change the classification names of a couple of creatures. Does that strike you as particularly consequential?

I'm not going to say weird and crazy people don't exist, they obviously do. But they are outliers and the media/propaganda purposefully drives & elevates this kind of behavior. During this time frame my Church ran D&D games and we saw no problem with heroes going and killing demons, because this is a good and heroic thing to do.

I think the Satanic Panic did have it's roots on some Televangelists or they saw the opportunity to grift and did so.

On the other hand the media might very well blowed it out of proportion to get more eyes/sell more news papers (if it bleeds it leads).

And those who want to tell everybody how to live saw an oportunity to grab the power and did so.

Just look at the "liberal" demands of current year:

No boot babes, nascar babes, scantily clad women anywhere (unless it's some blueharied weirdo/landwhale).

Their demands in regards to relations between the sexes can only be solved by having a chaperone present while dating.

Instead of an Our Father they want you to use their cult's religious chants.

It's a religious movement masquerading as a secular one.

And boy did they managed to get way more power than Christians have had in the last 100 years.

Quote from: Omega on April 04, 2022, 06:23:43 AM

Quote from: Zelen on April 03, 2022, 10:04:14 PM
The Satanic Panic was always about embarrassing Christians for predicting that promoting moral degeneracy in media would lead to negative outcomes in society. Turns out they were 100% correct in their concerns.

The fact that the phrase "Satanic Panic" is even used is a demonstration that this was a media-led campaign to discredit middle-America & Christians simply by framing their concerns as ridiculous.

In that sense, Wokism is a continuation of the "Satanic Panic" because the same bad actors that brought us the Satanic Panic by demonizing legitimate concerns are now bringing us more of the same type of subversive propaganda in media.

You are an idiot then if you believe that.

Yes the media fed off it. But I can very much confirm that the churches were in on this wherever the fearmongering took hold. As I have mentioned in other threads on the subject. One of my players way back became a victim of this years after. He was taken away to be "deprogrammed"... And I believe the mother of two of my other players moved out of state to "protect" them. The local library even wrecked the meeting room we'd rent and framed us for it. Probably more I never heard of. Stackpole has a web page dedicated to his own war on on the satanic panic.

Bolding mine. Just a link to The Pulling Report because it is relevant to the discussion and makes for some very interesting reading.

http://www.rpgstudies.net/stackpole/pulling_report.html

Got a link to the study? Or is this just an elaborate April 1st joke?   Woke women gave us the 18th amendment.  Now they give us this.  Their own actions aren't make a good case for womens sufferage.