Quote from: Pedantic;498828Well, my soul is probably gone, but I can say I'd rather fellate men than stacks of d12s, and have had some small success in doing so. Speaking for my personal preferences, I cringe whenever I run across someone going on a rant for "simple character creation" or "cutting down the rules bloat."

That out of the way, I'm not sure the position is that worthy of snide dismissal. Consider the progress of D&D pre 3e. Gamers were inundated with more and more rules in modular subsystems to model more and more content in increasingly exhaustive detail. The drive for simplification in games is a pretty recent trend, and, I think, tied less to the supposed complexity of modern games, than to their base assumptions.

A simple base game, without heavy concern for precise balance in the compulsive probability calculator way 4e does, with easy to apply modules for upwards complexity, drives demand for more and more of those modules allowing for more and more precise customization. Somehow, that sort of expanding ruleset has fallen completely beside the wayside after 3e.

In 4e, I'm convinced that's because fans are more concerned with keeping the numbers boring and have given up any pretense of objective world modeling or verisimilitude boosting through mechanical means.

I am curious why it's fallen by the wayside in other forms of D&D, particularly what's grown out of 3e. I suppose we see some PF alternative rulesystems (if you can dignify their piecemeal armor or armor as DR variants with that) and the OSR is obviously still doing it, but all the rhetoric is about simplicity.

No. That position is worthy of not only snide dismissal, but also open scorn and possibly corporal punishment.

When I come across people on the forums crying out for simpler character creation, less rules bloat and more pared down mechanics, it gives me hope that maybe the hobby will cater to actual people again, instead of just fleshy counting machines.

Here's the thing: role-playing games are supposed to be games of imagination. As such, they thrive when they rely on human elements: judgment, creativity, adaptability, etc. Without this element, then you are essentially playing a very, very low tech videogame wherein one set of numbers competes with another set of numbers in a numbers contest to win numbers that can be used to increase the numbers' numbers to take on bigger numbers.

D&D 3rd edition was the worst offender in this regard, with it's attempts to codify absolutely everything, turn character creation into magic-deck building and tie a rubber band around the DM's nuts with rules, it was less a roleplaying game and more of an exercise in abstract spread sheet building.

Actually, being that most of the decisions in the game were made by players while hanging out alone in a dank, odorous basement while sweatily poring over a pile of sourcebooks next to empty Zyprexa bottles, rather than during actual table play, I'd say that it was more the intellectual equivalent of people sitting in a circle and watching eachother masturbate.

4E was better in this regard, but not by a wide margin.

So the long and short of it is that you don't like RPG's. I'm sure that you've convinced yourself that you love them, but you don't. This hobby is for people, and you are just a machine that wants a videogame you can play without electricity. I think that you would be a much happier robot, if you gave up on RPG's and took up tax law as a hobby instead. Or maybe sudoku.

Quote from: B.T.;498843Saving throws are too much of a legacy issue to remove.  You can still use saving throws as a duration tracker even with 3e-style saving throws.

See, that assumes that the 3.x/OGL system will still be alive in 5th edition, rather than drowned in a bathtub like an unwanted Chinese baby like it deserves.

You know?

It's amazing how I can hover between disgust and delight on this forum sometimes.

Quote from: Declan MacManus;499229So the long and short of it is that you don't like RPG's. I'm sure that you've convinced yourself that you love them, but you don't. This hobby is for people, and you are just a machine that wants a videogame you can play without electricity. I think that you would be a much happier robot, if you gave up on RPG's and took up tax law as a hobby instead. Or maybe sudoku.

Just out of curiosity, what RPG (s) do you play mainly, given that you dislike 3E and 4E?

Quote from: Bloody Stupid Johnson;499255Just out of curiosity, what RPG (s) do you play mainly, given that you dislike 3E and 4E?

Heavily pared down and houseruled BECMI/RC D&D usually. Also AD&D, Castles & Crusades, BASH! UE, Icons, Mini6 Star Wars, and whatever one of my friends puts in front of me that doesn't require accounting software for chargen.

If I need to make something up on the fly, I use PDQ with D&D style hit points grafted onto it because I like to run pulp-y games and the damage system is just weird to me.

As for 4E, I dislike the game as a whole, but I think the base is rather good. Get rid of skills, powers, feats and other special snowflake bullshit, I'd probably like it more than C&C

Upon further reflection, I think that (based on the  Legend & Lore columns in 2011 and a crazy hunch) they will keep AC, but might remove Reflex/Fortitude/Will.

Instead, the character's ability scores will become targets (eg. Charm Person vs. the opponent's Wisdom).

Quote from: Declan MacManus;499229No. That position is worthy of not only snide dismissal, but also open scorn and possibly corporal punishment.

When I come across people on the forums crying out for simpler character creation, less rules bloat and more pared down mechanics, it gives me hope that maybe the hobby will cater to actual people again, instead of just fleshy counting machines.

Here's the thing: role-playing games are supposed to be games of imagination. As such, they thrive when they rely on human elements: judgment, creativity, adaptability, etc. Without this element, then you are essentially playing a very, very low tech videogame wherein one set of numbers competes with another set of numbers in a numbers contest to win numbers that can be used to increase the numbers' numbers to take on bigger numbers.

D&D 3rd edition was the worst offender in this regard, with it's attempts to codify absolutely everything, turn character creation into magic-deck building and tie a rubber band around the DM's nuts with rules, it was less a roleplaying game and more of an exercise in abstract spread sheet building.

Actually, being that most of the decisions in the game were made by players while hanging out alone in a dank, odorous basement while sweatily poring over a pile of sourcebooks next to empty Zyprexa bottles, rather than during actual table play, I'd say that it was more the intellectual equivalent of people sitting in a circle and watching eachother masturbate.

4E was better in this regard, but not by a wide margin.

So the long and short of it is that you don't like RPG's. I'm sure that you've convinced yourself that you love them, but you don't. This hobby is for people, and you are just a machine that wants a videogame you can play without electricity. I think that you would be a much happier robot, if you gave up on RPG's and took up tax law as a hobby instead. Or maybe sudoku.

Fantastic, sir. I don't know if I've said this before, but I don't recall you, so.. welcome to theRPGsite!

RPGPundit

Quote from: Rum Cove;499060"My fighter will force the enemy back with his shield, while striking with his weapon.   I am willing to accept any penalties this might cause to my attack roll."

So if the fighter can try doing all sorts of interesting stunts for tactical or roleplay-based reasons, but they take a penalty for doing so, the system/DM is punishing them for doing anything other than a basic attack. Keep that up and the player will simply stop bothering to try anything interesting.

I'm not fully keen on the way D&D4's power structure works, but there's definitely a lot of design space in the middle ground between "try anything at a penalty" and "you can do a bunch of cool tricks, but only those cool tricks".

Quote from: Ladybird;499715So if the fighter can try doing all sorts of interesting stunts for tactical or roleplay-based reasons, but they take a penalty for doing so, the system/DM is punishing them for doing anything other than a basic attack.

It is an adjustment to the attack roll based on the difficulty of the stunt, which occurs in all editions.  In 4e, some stunts may be easier to perform than they would be in older editions, but they are limited in frequency in which they can be attempted (ie, encounters and dailies) and are preselected at character creation at the expense of improvisation.

Sometimes the adjustment will be a positive modifier. Several of the above examples would have no attack modifier, but it is important for the player to accept what the rules and DM arbitration decide and not stop the game over petty details.

The players that see negative modifiers as punishment are the main reason why Feats were created.  Examples: two weapon fighting, spell casters using magic in melee, tripping, disarming, called shots, etc.

QuoteSee, that assumes that the 3.x/OGL system will still be alive in 5th edition, rather than drowned in a bathtub like an unwanted Chinese baby like it deserves.

Given Pathfinder's success, it will.  Though I'm amused at the thought that we need to go back to having five different saving throw categories.

QuoteNo. That position is worthy of not only snide dismissal, but also open scorn and possibly corporal punishment.

When I come across people on the forums crying out for simpler character creation, less rules bloat and more pared down mechanics, it gives me hope that maybe the hobby will cater to actual people again, instead of just fleshy counting machines.

Here's the thing: role-playing games are supposed to be games of imagination. As such, they thrive when they rely on human elements: judgment, creativity, adaptability, etc. Without this element, then you are essentially playing a very, very low tech videogame wherein one set of numbers competes with another set of numbers in a numbers contest to win numbers that can be used to increase the numbers' numbers to take on bigger numbers.

D&D 3rd edition was the worst offender in this regard, with it's attempts to codify absolutely everything, turn character creation into magic-deck building and tie a rubber band around the DM's nuts with rules, it was less a roleplaying game and more of an exercise in abstract spread sheet building.

Actually, being that most of the decisions in the game were made by players while hanging out alone in a dank, odorous basement while sweatily poring over a pile of sourcebooks next to empty Zyprexa bottles, rather than during actual table play, I'd say that it was more the intellectual equivalent of people sitting in a circle and watching eachother masturbate.

4E was better in this regard, but not by a wide margin.

So the long and short of it is that you don't like RPG's. I'm sure that you've convinced yourself that you love them, but you don't. This hobby is for people, and you are just a machine that wants a videogame you can play without electricity. I think that you would be a much happier robot, if you gave up on RPG's and took up tax law as a hobby instead. Or maybe sudoku.

As a long time gamer who broke the ice with Chainmail back in the day and playing every edition of D&D to now (37 years), all I can say is you are wrong.  You have made your personal opinion and that is all it will be.  So, you are the sole authority on what an RPG???  You are the only person in the whole gaming community that knows what the definition of an RPG is???  

Just shut up...

Quote from: Ancientgamer1970;499779As a long time gamer who broke the ice with Chainmail back in the day and playing every edition of D&D to now (37 years), all I can say is you are wrong.  You have made your personal opinion and that is all it will be.  So, you are the sole authority on what an RPG???  You are the only person in the whole gaming community that knows what the definition of an RPG is???  

Just shut up...

Waitaminute, fuck-o.

If you get to make statements like this:

Quote from: Ancientgamer1970;498815I can tell by the way people talk to me whether or not they will suck as a DM or not.  I can tell by the way people post if they will be a good DM or not. I been doing this crap too long...

Then Declan MacManus may make whatever statements he wishes because this is not your Private Idaho. Pundit has the final word here because it is his forum and he has declared it a Free Speech zone.

Take your self-righteous indignation and shove it up your ass.

Quote from: jeff37923;499785Waitaminute, fuck-o.

If you get to make statements like this:

Not sure if you've noticed, but Ancientgamer only posts here to take shots at people and to cry about how they weren't nice to him at Knights & Knaves Alehouse.  He never actually starts threads about gaming; the conclusions pretty much draw themselves.

Quote from: misterguignol;499786Not sure if you've noticed, but Ancientgamer only posts here to take shots at people and to cry about how they weren't nice to him at Knights & Knaves Alehouse.  He never actually starts threads about gaming; the conclusions pretty much draw themselves.

Actually, I hadn't noticed it. I will pay attention to it in the future, however.

Quote from: misterguignol;499786Not sure if you've noticed, but Ancientgamer only posts here to take shots at people and to cry about how they weren't nice to him at Knights & Knaves Alehouse.  He never actually starts threads about gaming; the conclusions pretty much draw themselves.

The only thing that is true about your comment is that I have not started any NEW threads about gaming.

I have a million threads I would love to start but as seeing they might deevolve into slugfests and other things, I would feel that I was wasting other people's time.  

Now as far as SOME of my comments are concerned toward certain members of a certain elitist site, I will target them because their elitism is angst of the fractured fanbase they create.  So sad, so bad.

So as I see it, there are some posters on here who are allowed to constantly spout their vitrilic posts in the larger posts but I make a few posts and I am the bad guy?  No matter how many different posts I make, posters like this one will only concentrate on certain ones no matter the topic and generalize.   Totally laughable...

QuoteWaitaminute, fuck-o.

Oooops, did not mean to make you shed a tear...

QuoteI will pay attention to it in the future, however.

Please do and you will see how how wrong you were lead to believe.

QuoteTake your self-righteous indignation and shove it up your ass.

I am practicing my Free Speech as you are...  

Quote from: Ancientgamer1970;499791I have a million threads I would love to start but as seeing they might deevolve into slugfests and other things, I would feel that I was wasting other people's time.

Only one way to find out - start one up!