Quote from: misterguignol;498985Diplomacy check?  Role-play that shit!

Well yeah, but we're talking about different systems here. 'You can just ignore the rules' is not much of a defence for a shitty ruleset.
 

Quote from: misterguignol;498985Get out your longbow and continue describing your combat manoeuvers.

Borderline useless in actual play.

Quote from: misterguignol;498985...that still happens in 4e, more or less.  You can describe how brave and selfless your character is, but if you get hit with a "LOL you attack your friends!" power, your description no longer matters.

Charm and dominate are actually pretty shit now, it's certainly not something that is likely to turn the tide of the encounter.

"roleplay that shit" puts the entire situation in the hands of the DM.  Why have rules for combat at all if you're willing to allow the DM to plunge you into it entirely by fiat?

Quote from: soviet;498987I'm suggesting it should at least be possible. In 4e for instance the fighter can mark his foes, stop them moving with an opportunity attack, and also use certain powers to immobilise or otherwise lock people down.

A pre-4e Fighter of 1st level can attempt any ability/power of a 4e Fighter of any level.  Not only that, but a pre-4e Fighter can attempt any power of any 4e class (some might require magic items to be successful).

Of course, there might be some penalties involved.  Feats were introduced to counter this (eg. fighting with two-weapons).

You know what'd be cool in D&D 5e?

If they made a mechanic how to combine Magic: The Gathering cards with story, and how to adapt a MtG card's abilities to spells/monsters.

I totally itch to GM a game about Planewalkers, and use some random 60 cards + 15 land cards I picked off from my Magic collection for my entire narration - I draw a goblin, party meets a goblin. They change planes? I draw an Island card from the deck - here they are, on an island, or whatever's in the picture.

Quote from: Rincewind1;498996You know what'd be cool in D&D 5e?

You could do that now, with any game system.  Why not try it?

Quote from: Rum Cove;498998You could do that now, with any game system.  Why not try it?

I know I can do it, and I plan to. Just like I can turn 4E into a game of courtroom drama, if I care to mod it enough. But I think it'd be nice if they gave some guidelines. I could use them, I could discard them in favour of my own - but it'd be a nice touch. Just to save me some time if I agree with their interpretation.

After all, you can just buy OD&D and houserule everything, or you can buy some other RPGs for just that - interpretations.

Quote from: Rum Cove;498993A pre-4e Fighter of 1st level can attempt any ability/power of a 4e Fighter of any level.  Not only that, but a pre-4e Fighter can attempt any power of any 4e class (some might require magic items to be successful).

No, they can't. This is simply wrong.

Quote from: soviet;499005No, they can't. This is simply wrong.

In your opinion, which is fine.

Quote from: Abyssal Maw;498986Where WOTC failed is not they made the game less lethal- it isn't. The problem is they didn't make failure more interesting.  Failing stuff used to be hilarious. Like in AD&D when you pulled out something from the bag of tricks and it was a mouse. Or you put on a cursed item and it changed your gender. Tricks were as common- maybe more common, and always more fun-- than traps.

Completely in agreement.  I was really disappointed by the 4e version of the Cursed Weapon in the Book of Vile Darkness.

Quote from: Rum Cove;499017In your opinion, which is fine.

Dude, unless you're talking about a lot of houseruling, it's fact.

Looking at a level 1 fighter using just the 4e PHB he can do the following:

Push someone back one square every time he hits them, following up into the vacated square if he chooses (Tide of Iron)
Stop someone moving when he opportunity attacks them (Combat Superiority)
Attack someone when they attack someone else (Combat Challenge)
Attack someone and give an ally a bonus move (Covering Attack)
Attack someone, move, and then attack someone else (Passing Attack)
Attack someone and knock them prone (Spinning Sweep)
Attack someone and greatly restrict their movement for a turn (Steel Serpent Strike)
Attack someone and heal himself (Comeback Strike)

A pre-4e fighter can only do most of those via house-ruling. Some of them can be attempted as overbearing attacks or the like, which a) requires a feat if you don't want to trigger an attack of opportunity, b) is hard to accomplish, and c) is not as effective in the long run as simply hitting someone with a sword. The 4e fighter can try any of these manoeuvres with a good chance of success AND do decent damage at the same time.

I will address your last post, even though after seeing how you brushed aside responses from misterguignol and myself, it won't make a lick of difference to you.  Instead, I hope that this will give insight to others and improve their gaming experience by experimenting a little more and looking past a list of skills/powers.

First off, I should clarify that I am talking about TSR versions of D&D (and their variations), when I talk about pre-4e.  Although it shouldn't be a problem with 3e (or their variations) to do the same, I don't want to get into petty arguments over Feat requirements or turn efficiency.

Quote from: soviet;499038Push someone back one square every time he hits them, following up into the vacated square if he chooses (Tide of Iron)

"My fighter will force the enemy back with his shield, while striking with his weapon.   I am willing to accept any penalties this might cause to my attack roll."

Quote from: soviet;499038Stop someone moving when he opportunity attacks them (Combat Superiority)

"My fighter will wait, should the enemy move, he will bar his movement and attack.   I am willing to accept any penalties this might cause to my attack roll."

Quote from: soviet;499038Attack someone when they attack someone else (Combat Challenge)

"My fighter will wait, should the enemy attack my ally, he will attack first and step between them, if possible. I am willing to accept any penalties this might cause to my attack roll."

Quote from: soviet;499038Attack someone and give an ally a bonus move (Covering Attack)

"Pushing my ally out of the way, my fighter will attack the enemy.   I am willing to accept any penalties this might cause to my attack roll."

Quote from: soviet;499038Attack someone, move, and then attack someone else (Passing Attack)

"My fighter will strike with the weapon in his off hand, move to the next enemy and strike with the weapon in his other hand.   I am willing to accept any penalties this might cause to my attack roll."

Quote from: soviet;499038Attack someone and knock them prone (Spinning Sweep)

"My fighter will strike the enemy with the intent of knocking them over.   I am willing to accept any penalties this might cause to my attack roll."

Quote from: soviet;499038Attack someone and greatly restrict their movement for a turn (Steel Serpent Strike)

"My fighter will cut the tendons on the enemy's leg to slow him down.  I am willing to accept any penalties this might cause to my attack roll."

Quote from: soviet;499038Attack someone and heal himself (Comeback Strike)

"My fighter will strike and quaff a healing potion at the same time.  I am willing to accept any penalties this might cause to my attack roll."

As a friendly suggestion, bring a 4e Player's Handbook to the next game of pre-4e D&D for ideas.  Simply take the flavour text of each power and state that to the DM.  Explain what you are trying to accomplish and accept any penalties that might occur with a minimal amount of debate.

Between sessions, tell your DM that you intend to experiment and agree on the best way to communicate your goals.   Most DMs will enjoy the variety, over the constant barrage of "I attack".  Chances are, other players will begin to do the same.

What he was saying is that in 1st edition AD&D, for instance, a 1st level fighter could 'attempt' any of those things.

You don't need a rule that says you can do it, to try to do it. You may fail. The mechanical resolution is likely to be different. It wouldn't hurt to have some justification as to why it should work. But you're always allowed to try.

Quote from: Kaldric;499061What he was saying is that in 1st edition AD&D, for instance, a 1st level fighter could 'attempt' any of those things.

You don't need a rule that says you can do it, to try to do it. You may fail. The mechanical resolution is likely to be different. It wouldn't hurt to have some justification as to why it should work. But you're always allowed to try.

I agree with all that, but it's still houseruling. In a comparison of different editions, you have to go by what the rules actually say. Otherwise the whole discussion is pointless. You might as well say that all the editions are the same, because you can always houserule any differences away.

It is easier to houserule an addition to the rules than it is to houserule a removal from the rules, based on player expectations.

Quote from: Rum Cove;499069It is easier to houserule an addition to the rules than it is to houserule a removal from the rules, based on player expectations.

And based on a simple frigging logic of how humans work.

Take away from me? Bad.

Give it to me? Good.