Now that Reflex, Fortitude and Will are target numbers for attack resolution, is AC redundant?  Should it be removed in 5e?

Perhaps, AC could be damage reduction.

I am particularly interested in Abyssal Maw's opinion on the matter.

Quote from: Rum Cove;498199Now that Reflex, Fortitude and Will are target numbers for attack resolution, is AC redundant?  Should it be removed in 5e?

Perhaps, AC could be damage reduction.

I am particularly interested in Abyssal Maw's opinion on the matter.

AC was removed from Star Wars Saga Edition. Reflex was used for physical attacks. As such, 4e was an affirmation of the concept in some ways, rather than a move away from.

(My opinion might not be that interesting)

I (bet) AC still stays. I don't know what "5e" will be like. I do know that there will be a special adventure at DDXP next month that might be insightful. I don't know if I'll get to play it.

In 4e AC really isn't redundant at all, because D&D is just as much about tough guys clashing in battle as it is nimble characters dodging and battles of wits. It makes sense that it goes away in Star Wars, because.. well blasters. Having the different defenses in D&D, though, is an interesting gambling game- do you concentrate on attacks that focus on toe to toe stuff, or do you look at ways to go for the weak point or to cover your own defenses.  I think that makes combat interesting.

How about we ignore 4e's defenses and return to saving throws?

Quote from: B.T.;498217How about we ignore 4e's defenses and return to saving throws?

In previous editions of D&D a saving throw was something that happened after you were already screwed.. usually already dead. The saving throw in that way was a last chance.

Petrification..unless you save. Poison.. unless you save. Spell.. unless you save. Often these were game-ending effects.


Over time, people started to think of them just as a dice roll. Like there are traps in Hidden Shrine of Tamoa-chan where you rolled a save to avoid setting off a pit trap or the hall of thrashing canes or whatever else.

By the time 3e rolls around, saves have been fully recast as a sort of defense. For example, if you encounter an Entangle spell you roll a save to avoid being entangled.

I really think 4e brought them closer back to their original intent: you make saving throws very rarely, and usually to stop a potentially lethal effect: you save for death, for example, or ongoing poison, or save for a medusa gaze.

5e???  

It is not out yet.

I will wait until it comes out and we shall see if it is a topic worth arguing about.  

Nah, I will save you the trouble.  I do not care because it will be what it is no matter what people want so I will not argue about something I have no control over.

RE: Saving Throws

Quote from: Abyssal Maw;498221Over time, people started to think of them just as a dice roll. Like there are traps in Hidden Shrine of Tamoa-chan where you rolled a save to avoid setting off a pit trap or the hall of thrashing canes or whatever else.

I think it was in Castle Amber that -

Spoiler

a Saving Throw vs. Magic was performed and if it failed, a positive effect was given.  Which I'm sure encouraged people to not cheat only to find they missed out

- which I really liked.

Quote from: Abyssal Maw;498221I really think 4e brought them closer back to their original intent: you make saving throws very rarely, and usually to stop a potentially lethal effect: you save for death, for example, or ongoing poison, or save for a medusa gaze.

Saving Throws in 4e were one of the changes that I really enjoyed, among others.  Though, in the end I must join the crowd that uses that poor defense of "it doesn't feel like D&D".

My major issues, which I can expand on by request, were the loss of magic and wonder (something the designers agreed with and the late patches didn't fix completely) and the illusion of choice.

Quote from: Abyssal Maw;498216(My opinion might not be that interesting)

I know that you're heavily involved in 4e and would have better insight.

Quote from: Abyssal Maw;498216I (bet) AC still stays. I don't know what "5e" will be like.

I agreed, AC will stay as it is.  The riots it would cause if removed or downgraded would be unlike any before.

Though, I do feel that the game should be streamlined so that AC is changed to damage reduction and AC attacks are given over to Reflex.  Just seems a like a natural progression.

Quote from: Ancientgamer1970;4982725e???  

It is not out yet.

I will wait until it comes out and we shall see if it is a topic worth arguing about.  

No need to argue, though speculation is always fun.

From the Legends & Lore columns on Wizards.com, there seems to be a direction that Mr. Mearls and Mr. Cook would like to take it that the posters there completely disagree with.

I, on the other hand, have agreed with them completely and would prefer to see their version without pandering to the vocal masses.

Hopefully, it will be a nice hybrid of the original Basic/Expert and 4e.

Quote from: Rum Cove;498280No need to argue, though speculation is always fun.

From the Legends & Lore columns on Wizards.com, there seems to be a direction that Mr. Mearls and Mr. Cook would like to take it that the posters there completely disagree with.

I, on the other hand, have agreed with them completely and would prefer to see their version without pandering to the vocal masses.

Hopefully, it will be a nice hybrid of the original Basic/Expert and 4e.

Link to the article please...

I like the multiple defense of 4e, offers different dimensions to combat. I hope they stay for 5e, but 5e won't matter. The hobby is too far fractured with Crapfinder, 4e, RPGA and the OSR to put back together into a cohesive "D&D" with a unified fanbase...unless a new fanbase is created via an online game table experience.

Ever since S&W:WB came out, I've ditched the old style saves of D&D and our game has only improved.

Quote from: Ancientgamer1970;498323Link to the article please...

They even collected all the columns from 2011 into one file!

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/Article.aspx?x=dnd/4ll/20111227

Quote from: Rum Cove;498280Hopefully, it will be a nice hybrid of the original Basic/Expert and 4e.

Not a bad idea, but it would only piss off OSR fans and 4e fans. I doubt any faction would be appeased. OSR fans vomit on rules not penned by Gygax and 4e fans would miss the structure of their gameplay.

And Crapfinder fans would keep playing Crapfinder. As much as I loathe 3e, Paizo does a great job giving 3e fans more of exactly what they want. The Paizo guys are smart fuckers.

So, yeah, as an avowed hater I sincerely hope they drop AC and get rid of polyhedral damage dice, and character classes, and levels or even any one of those because it would be the last nail in their coffin and "crapfinder" as someone once called it has shown quite clearly that they are only dead wood that we never really needed.

Quote from: David Johansen;498506So, yeah, as an avowed hater I sincerely hope they drop AC and get rid of polyhedral damage dice, and character classes, and levels or even any one of those because it would be the last nail in their coffin and "crapfinder" as someone once called it has shown quite clearly that they are only dead wood that we never really needed.

They made a game for you. It's called Gurps.

Wait, do they still make that?