This was what I was getting at. In older editions we ostensibly had support for polytheistic religions but the cleric class a presented had a specific spell list that presented set assumptions about the kind of god that provided them. I actually think 5th edition has my favorite presentation of the class so far, we get support for various domains that allow for more individualization of each cleric as suited to their preferred deity.

Quote from: Armchair Gamer;824971I do think conflating 'cleric' with 'priest' to the point of identity was a mistake; I'm not sure if it started with D&DG or Dragonlance.

I've felt the same way for some time now. I dare say it may have started with Supplement I: Greyhawk which featured a "holy warrior" class (the Paladin) separate, and more "martial" than the Cleric.

To the best of my understanding, Clerics were originally inspired in equal measures by Medieval knightly orders associated with the Roman Catholic Church and manned by ordained, monastic soldier-priests (like Templars, Hospitallers or Teutonic Knights) and undead hunters (mostly inspired by Peter Cushing's recurring incarnations of Van Helsing, ever opposing Christopher Lee's Dracula, in the old Hammer movies), with a side order o Abrahamic miracle-working by way of a spell list cribbed from Biblical miracles, with both Old and New Testament represented.

Right off the bat, this clashes with the clearly-not-Christian (or even Abrahamic) polytheism of most sword-and-sorcery settings that inspired D&D campaigns, a conflict that led to the birth of the now-widespread Crystal Dragon Jesus trope (I do find TVTropes a useful reference on occasion).

And when Supplement I: Greyhawk gave us the Paladin, a calque (again, to the best of my understanding) of a more specific fantasy source (Holger Carlsen from Poul Anderson's Three Hearts and Three Lions), Gygax not only invented supplement power creep but also more or less displaced the Cleric from its niche as "holy warrior" towards a more generic "priestly" type. From there to the universal conflation of priests with the Cleric class was a small step.

I belive it was Unearthed Arcana that first tried to dial the Cleric back into soldier-priestdom by offering a "cloistered cleric" variant.

And one of the things I am very fond of in ACKS is that the Player's Companion features a Priestess class, ostensibly specific to the Auran Empire campaign setting, but easily generalized into a non-armor-clad, non-skull-bashing devotee of the Gods.

Next time I run ACKS I intend to use the Cleric as the soldier-priest archetype, and the Priest/Priestess as a more contemplative adventurer under holy orders. I may or may not use the Paladin as a divinely-inspired warrior unaffiliated with religious hierarchies.

Quote from: Bren;825019Follow up question: Is your desire to have or to allow the priest role in the game world include characters who are not clerics and thus presumably to have priests who do not have the powers (particularly spell powers) of the cleric class?

  That's a lot of it, as well as what The Butcher pointed out and the fact that certain versions of the cleric are so specific in their feel, bells and whistles. Another part is taking inspiration from van Helsing and the Mentzer descriptions of the cleric to suggest that the cleric need not be a priest--Templar (religiously vowed but not a priest or worship leader), vampire hunter, or stretching the concept a little, Jedi Knight, warrior-poet, or even noble prince or princess with a pure heart and some combat skills.

Quote from: tenbones;825171Heck - even in Monotheism, Christianity wasn't codified until the Nicene Council almost 400 years after Christ. The Bible didn't even exist until Constantine forced the issue because all these Bishoprics used different books to teach the Gospel(s). That editorial jam-session gave us the New Testament.

   *Groan* No. Just, no.

   --Questions of orthodoxy in Christan doctrine go back to the Pauline and Johannine epistles, and by the late 2nd century, St. Irenaeus of Lyons is writing Against Heretics.
   --The general canon of the New Testament was agreed upon--especially the centrality of the four Gospels and the letters of Paul--with some dispute about the edges, and it didn't even come up at Nicea, IIRC. Unfortunately, I'm aware from my copy of Denzinger and other resources at the moment.
   --Nicea was called by Constantine because the Arians were introducing what many others saw as a novelty into the traditional teaching, requiring that the codification of the Church's own understanding.
   --The post-Constantinian emperors for the next half-century were predominantly Arian or Arian-sympathizers, not Nicene. It wasn't exactly a case of the Emperor imposing his own preferences. (And many of the barbarians wound up going Arian as well, so that the Western Church was still trying to stamp out the heresy a few centuries later.)

Quote from: Armchair Gamer;825347That's a lot of it, as well as what The Butcher pointed out and the fact that certain versions of the cleric are so specific in their feel, bells and whistles. Another part is taking inspiration from van Helsing and the Mentzer descriptions of the cleric to suggest that the cleric need not be a priest--Templar (religiously vowed but not a priest or worship leader), vampire hunter, or stretching the concept a little, Jedi Knight, warrior-poet, or even noble prince or princess with a pure heart and some combat skills.

:cool: I'd only understood the first half (non-spell using priests) of what you wanted. Not the spell-using non priest part. Thanks for clarifying.

Quote from: Armchair Gamer;825347That's a lot of it, as well as what The Butcher pointed out and the fact that certain versions of the cleric are so specific in their feel, bells and whistles. Another part is taking inspiration from van Helsing and the Mentzer descriptions of the cleric to suggest that the cleric need not be a priest--Templar (religiously vowed but not a priest or worship leader), vampire hunter, or stretching the concept a little, Jedi Knight, warrior-poet, or even noble prince or princess with a pure heart and some combat skills.



   *Groan* No. Just, no.

   --Questions of orthodoxy in Christan doctrine go back to the Pauline and Johannine epistles, and by the late 2nd century, St. Irenaeus of Lyons is writing Against Heretics.
   --The general canon of the New Testament was agreed upon--especially the centrality of the four Gospels and the letters of Paul--with some dispute about the edges, and it didn't even come up at Nicea, IIRC. Unfortunately, I'm aware from my copy of Denzinger and other resources at the moment.
   --Nicea was called by Constantine because the Arians were introducing what many others saw as a novelty into the traditional teaching, requiring that the codification of the Church's own understanding.
   --The post-Constantinian emperors for the next half-century were predominantly Arian or Arian-sympathizers, not Nicene. It wasn't exactly a case of the Emperor imposing his own preferences. (And many of the barbarians wound up going Arian as well, so that the Western Church was still trying to stamp out the heresy a few centuries later.)

Christianity was much cooler in them old school days with all those house rules.  Someone should do an OSR clone.

Quote from: Matt;825530Christianity was much cooler in them old school days with all those house rules.  Someone should do an OSR clone.

They did, it was called Lutheranism.

Quote from: Rincewind1;825531They did, it was called Lutheranism.

Naw. Lutherans persecuted the later Arians. In fact it was one thing that Catholics, Calvinists, Lutherans, and Anglicans all agreed on, i.e. that Arians or semi-Arians were heretics.

Quote from: jeff37923;824174Why not have the religion be centered on a single divine being (the Allfather or Universal Mother) who then sired all of the other less powerful godlings? It would be a hierarchical family based organization allowing the divine descendants to each have their minor specialties, but with an overarching sense of unity.

I usually use the Small Gods rules for 3.0 from FFG in my games so that lesser divine beings grant lower level spells (and are easier to destroy), something similar to this can be used for the divine descendants to limit the power of their clerics spell portfolio while still allowing their specialities.

as long as the originator god was only divine rank 20 deities with a divine rank above 20 are a shit

Quote from: Bren;824796Poor Gary. Its too late now for him to live that one down. That huge pole arms table in the Strategic Review seemed pretty whacked to my teenage self. And it hasn't improved with age either.

I think it's fine; as a designer, he was really into medieval weapons (pole-arms, specifically, I guess) and so he wrote about that.  Other designers may be into religious history, and will write about that.

Coming at it from a flexible OD&D attitude, I've always found it a handy enough framework for a fantasy adventure game I can easily tailor to whatever cosmology may be interesting. The Druid monster-cum-class is a classic example of extensive tailoring, but a lot of folks are happy with simpler adjustments.

Some thoughts:

'Turning' and PFE can apply to whatever seems appropriate, which might vary from deity to deity. Some things might be doable by laymen, too, such as offering blood to ghosts come up from Tartarus. Protection from enemies is a pretty common service for gods to render (Thor for instance beating back the life-threatening storms represented by the Giants).

Spell lists are easily varied. I'm in favor of limited lists - perhaps 6 or 8 per level - as opposed to the open-ended approach (new supplement = additional spells for every cleric).

Holy symbols and holy anointing - whether with water, oil, ashes, liquor, or what have you - are also pretty common.

Remember that the point is a fun fantasy game. It will often be meet to go for a variation rather than trying to be historically accurate. While D&D is flexible it does have some basic concepts that facilitate game challenges and strategies; there's an overall structure. For a very different setup, it might be more convenient to start with some other rules set. It's often not too much work to mix and match things from different FRP games, though.