Quote from: Narf the Mouse;363955We don't believe our hierarchy is infallible. The closest we have is two specific beliefs - That the Prophet is always right when speaking through the Spirit and that if he lead us astray, God would remove him.

There are two related qualifiers for that: First, we are to pray to find out for ourselves whether the Prophet is right and whether he is a Prophet and two, the second only applies if the Prophet who said that was "speaking through the Spirit".

So no, we don't believe our hierarchy is infallible. We just believe they'll be corrected if they're wrong - And, of course, we need to "Think, ponder and pray" to find out for ourselves.

Actually, Narf summed Dogs up pretty well after all, so hey! I guess it is relevant.

Replace "Prophet" with "Dogs", bam. Assume there is no God (which we can all agree on in terms of the actual RPG, at least; your PC only gets the Spirit speaking to him in the sense that you, the player, are his moral compass).

So there you go. Dogs have the authority to command almost anything. Other Dogs do too, and they can contradict each other. And average Joe Townsfolk can pray on it, and decide, well, this Dog isn't really hearing the Spirit, I am, and act against them. And then the Dog is like, well, I know what God told me (what the player wants to happen), am I gonna shoot this dude if I can't change his mind? Or two Dogs can end up drawing pistols on each other over their differing interpretations of the Spirit speaking to them.

In that sense it's a commentary on how social groups schism over different interpretations of their religion, but it's Kirk or Malcom Reynolds or Commander Shepherd, too. Society says "This is how the world works, this is how things are supposed to be". Captain Spaceman shows up and has a different opinion. Shit gets complicated. It's a good, solid setup just because it sets up conflict.

Quote from: Sweeney;364029That's exactly opposite from how Dogs does it, and, yeah, no wonder people think the game sucks at that rate.

Yeah, I wasn't clear if I remember the rules that way, or if that's how I did it. Must have been the latter, because it makes more sense having someone on Earth being one step above the Dogs, just in case they need reining in. And really, it makes more sense my way, so I say - unofficial variant!

Quote from: Narf the Mouse;363955We don't believe our hierarchy is infallible. The closest we have is two specific beliefs - That the Prophet is always right when speaking through the Spirit and that if he lead us astray, God would remove him.

In theory, you are correct. But does it really work that way? Not quite.

We could take this to a subforum Narf, but I don't think that this would be a discussion that would cause anything but pain. It is an area of my life that still brings me a lot of grief or pain and it probably always will. I probably shouldn't discuss it either.

I'll just agree that DitV has very little or nothing to do with the real church, especially the church as it stands today.

Quote from: RPGPundit;363967There are a lot of ways you could respond to Koltar's quote that do not involve insinuating that he's a criminal, Jeff. Please pick one of those other ways. This sort of thing crosses the line.

RPGPundit

There are also ways that Koltar could have made his post that did not involve a jab at me for disagreeing with him (and you) about the suppossed awesomeness of Gene Roddenberry in the past.

Quote from: Werekoala;363905That'd be WoD.

What, WW games never featured "elders" with authority over the PCs and power to back it up? Wasn't that one of the major complaints about the über-NPCs featured in the oWoD metaplot and the political structures of the various supernaturals?

Quote from: GrimGent;364081What, WW games never featured "elders" with authority over the PCs and power to back it up? Wasn't that one of the major complaints about the über-NPCs featured in the oWoD metaplot and the political structures of the various supernaturals?

Well, not the way my guys played it.

Quote from: PaladinCA;364059In theory, you are correct. But does it really work that way? Not quite.

At risk of turning things nasty I want to follow this up a little bit with some explanation of how it tends to work in practice because it's very appropriate to the question of dealing with the elders in DitVY

So, when you've prayed and gotten your answer from the spirit and you go to the elders and it disagrees with the answer they got from the spirit, what do you suppose happens?

Yup, you get their position explained to you and told to go pray again until you get the right answer.

In practice the only right answer is their answer.  Now, THEY happen to be a large and diverse collection of people with varying opinions on various things and so stuff is often resolved by a vote in a council meeting, but these almost always look up the hiearchy for answers rather than down it.

Quote from: David Johansen;364095In practice the only right answer is their answer.  Now, THEY happen to be a large and diverse collection of people with varying opinions on various things and so stuff is often resolved by a vote in a council meeting, but these almost always look up the hiearchy for answers rather than down it.

This is, in fact, how many decisions are reached. But you will never see a major decision proclaimed as anything other than being from the direct guidance of the President of the Church (the Prophet) or the Quorum of the Twelve.

When someone is asked to fill a local calling in the church, they will often be told that the Bishop or Stake President has felt compelled to extend that calling to them through inspiration. And while I won't deny that there is such a thing as the promptings of the Holy Spirit, the reality is that the Bishop or Stake President has met with other church leaders and discussed potential people for the positions they needed to fill. Together, they make a recommendation and then pray about that choice. If they feel good about that decision, the calling is extended.

Is prayer a factor? Sure. But it isn't the only part of the process. I took a sociology course on the organization of religion and most church hierarchies tend to follow this pattern.

Excepting, of course, The Esoteric Order of Dagon.

Quote from: PaladinCA;364116This is, in fact, how many decisions are reached. But you will never see a major decision proclaimed as anything other than being from the direct guidance of the President of the Church (the Prophet) or the Quorum of the Twelve.

When someone is asked to fill a local calling in the church, they will often be told that the Bishop or Stake President has felt compelled to extend that calling to them through inspiration. And while I won't deny that there is such a thing as the promptings of the Holy Spirit, the reality is that the Bishop or Stake President has met with other church leaders and discussed potential people for the positions they needed to fill. Together, they make a recommendation and then pray about that choice. If they feel good about that decision, the calling is extended.

Is prayer a factor? Sure. But it isn't the only part of the process. I took a sociology course on the organization of religion and most church hierarchies tend to follow this pattern.

"Together, they make a recommendation and then pray about that choice. If they feel good about that decision, the calling is extended."

In other words, the promptings of the Holy Spirit.

Quote from: Narf the Mouse;364120"Together, they make a recommendation and then pray about that choice. If they feel good about that decision, the calling is extended."

In other words, the promptings of the Holy Spirit.

I suppose. My point is that it isn't the decision or inspiration of just one man. If a prophet was to "lead the church astray," it would actually be a group of men leading it astray. And that is why no LDS prophet has led the church astray. It isn't possible given the decision making process.

It also has the benefit of reinforcing the "inspirational decisions" that are made, because he would be removed by God if he was leading the church the wrong way. Since he isn't removed, he must be leading it correctly. Neat.

Kind of like when the prophet is right, he was talking with "the spirit." If the prophet was wrong about something, he was talking as "a man." Apparently Brigham Young did a lot of talking as "a man." Kind of a convenient guideline for church leadership when you think about it. Brilliant really.

As I said, my intent was to provide insight for running Dogs in the Vineyard not to provoke the discussion further.

But in that light, I often joke that leadership callings are 10% inspiration 90% desperation.

If you deal with the elders in DitVY this could be a good way to model it.  These are busy, dedicated people who are often more concerned about getting back to their cows and kids than finding the truth or making the right.  In fact, given the moral nature of the game that could be a very interesting way to run it.

re. Brigham Young, it always seemed to me that the trick would be to get him to stop talking, the guy would go on extemporaneously for hours on end.

Quote from: David Johansen;364130As I said, my intent was to provide insight for running Dogs in the Vineyard not to provoke the discussion further.

But in that light, I often joke that leadership callings are 10% inspiration 90% desperation.

If you deal with the elders in DitVY this could be a good way to model it.  These are busy, dedicated people who are often more concerned about getting back to their cows and kids than finding the truth or making the right.  In fact, given the moral nature of the game that could be a very interesting way to run it.

re. Brigham Young, it always seemed to me that the trick would be to get him to stop talking...

In light of the topic at hand, and considering that the Dogs are a fictional entity, it would still be pretty cool to have dealings with a hierarchy. The Dogs would obviously make decisions and have near impunity, much like British Naval Commanders during the 17th and 18th Centuries. But their decisions could be reviewed by a higher authority and that could lead to some fun roleplaying moments.

Also, the decisions surrounding the Prime Directive do lend themselves well to the mechanical aspects of DitV. Following the Jedi Code would also lend itself well to the mechanics of DitV. Moral quandries, ethical situations, and that sort of thing work well.

And Ed, it isn't anything to AARRGGHH Wtf? about really. Regardless of your mechanics, it sounds like you had a good game. And plenty of people that play DitV have good games. No need for false and divisive swinery labels.

Hey, don't go messing with Ed's simplistic us vs. them worldview!

Quote from: two_fishes;364158Hey, don't go messing with Ed's simplistic us vs. them worldview!

"Must worship the great leader."