I've been watching people try to "define," this bullshit for years, and those definitions seem to get longer, more complicated, and stupid every time the subject comes up. I get it, we're nerds and geeks and have to categorize and compartmentalize every fucking thing. I just don't think it's necessary (even though I do it too).

That being said, as someone who plays and runs OSR games and didn't grow up playing the games they copy/steal from, here is my definition based on my experiences over the last few years:

OSR is a very loose network of DIY designers, publishers, and players of games based loosely around old editions of D&D.

An addendum to that would be: The OSR community often publishes material that is more creative and fun to play than that of the original games they emulate.

Quote from: Haffrung;791983OSR ceased to have any practical utility as a term when it became synonymous with old-school. For the term to have any use to me, the 'R' part has to mean something.

It's possible to love old-school systems, adventures, and play modes, while having little interest in OSR systems, adventures, and forums. But the way the term has expanded means that distinction is lost.

I wouldn't say it meaningless but it is far more diverse than it used to be. And it still works if an individual uses it describe what they are doing with classic D&D or something similar.

Yet there are still a number of people publishing, promoting and playing for classic editions of D&D. With their number growing little by little every year. So that much hasn't changed.

And as the numbers increase so do the other things that happen under the OSR banner increase.

I would define the OSR as something that was, at one time, fun. I would argue also that what exists today as compared to what existed a few years ago is a change of degree, not of kind. There were always assholes and sychophants, but as things increased in size, so too did their numbers and noise.

The lack of gatekeepers and restriction are fucking great, but these things are not a product or side effect of the OSR. They are products of the internet- and the OGL, from which all the original retroclones are derived.

Now you can explain to me in a thousand ways how the OSR survives becuase of this or that, and really, you'd be correct. None of that matters to me, however, because the thousand flowers are bloomimg in a field of shit, and as much as I might like the colors, I can't stand the stink.

Quote from: Omega;792083Unfortunately its also become a cover for bootlegging. "I have filed all the serial numbers off of MSH and am selling it totally legally under the OSR license!" Which is why OSR gets a bad rep from some game designers and some think its a haven for thieves. Hence the hostility you see now and then.

1) There is no such thing as "the OSR license".

2) There is no such thing  in the USA as copyright protection for game algorithms. Once the artistic presentation context protected by copyright or trademark  is "filed off," what remains is legal use, not "bootlegging." The only exception would be game algorithms that are patented - very rare, and certainly no part of MSH.

3) There is no such thing in the USA as protection from a frivolous lawsuit. The Open Game License basically gives a promise not to sue people using material in conformance with its terms. In the case of AD&D retro-clone OSRIC, there's also the factor that a suit would have to be brought in a British court. The protection for an MSH retro-clone is simply that WotC doesn't give enough of a shit about it to bring a frivolous suit (or probably even a legitimate one).

Quote from: Phillip;792399The protection for an MSH retro-clone is simply that WotC doesn't give enough of a shit about it to bring a frivolous suit (or probably even a legitimate one).

Considering all the old MSH books are available for free, I find the creation of a clone somewhat retarded...

Quote from: Brad;792438Considering all the old MSH books are available for free, I find the creation of a clone somewhat retarded...

Doing something legal when there's an illegal alternative is "retarded," eh? Maybe you should think about that a bit more carefully, because there's no natural law confining disrespect for rights to an "except for when it bothers Brad" domain.

Quote from: Phillip;792439Doing something legal when there's an illegal alternative is "retarded," eh? Maybe you should think about that a bit more carefully, because there's no natural law confining disrespect for rights to an "except for when it bothers Brad" domain.

Pretty sure Jeff Grubb approves of the site, so no idea wtf you're talking about.

Quote from: Brad;792478Pretty sure Jeff Grubb approves of the site, so no idea wtf you're talking about.

   Well, I don't know if that's relevant for legal purposes--the question is, does Marvel approve of the site? (IIRC, most licensed RPGs assign copyright to the licensor.)

   It's been around long enough and is well known enough that I expect they don't disapprove of it enough to bother with, at least--and remember, Marvel's owned by Disney, which has a reputation for being quite vigilant with its IP.

Quote from: talysman;791375In Pundit's defense, I don't think he's excluding 2e. He says an OSR game must be designed with mechanics that existed prior to 2e, or that could have existed prior to 2e. Unless there's something in 2e that's clearly not possible pre-2e, 2e must qualify.

Mechanically speaking, there's nothing in 2e that wouldn't qualify, it's true.  There are some significant stylistic details that make it a bit different from the old-school.  Both in terms of its overall attitude, its whitewashing for "moral" purposes, and in terms of things like the increasing embrace of metaplot and stuff along those lines as 2e progressed.

Quote from: RPGPundit;792494Mechanically speaking, there's nothing in 2e that wouldn't qualify, it's true.  There are some significant stylistic details that make it a bit different from the old-school.  Both in terms of its overall attitude, its whitewashing for "moral" purposes, and in terms of things like the increasing embrace of metaplot and stuff along those lines as 2e progressed.

2nd ed seems to herals the "novel era" as it were.
Some of the metaplot and more restrictive modules stems from the change in office from Gygax to Williams. Loraine had a much much more literary focus. That coloured the product one way or another.

The funny thing is that oft the metaplot in the novels is not quite the same as that in the product due to how things were done back then.

Quote from: Brad;792438Considering all the old MSH books are available for free, I find the creation of a clone somewhat retarded...

Most "clones" are not exact copies would be the main reason. Another possible would be to reach out to a new audience.

In my case, Ive done Phaserip both as a tribute to a game that gave me endless hours of joy over the last 30 years and to present the rules in a way that explains them better to a new audience that no longer possesses the unspoken assumptions that one could rely on from a roleplayer in the early 80s. Altho I refer to my game as a "retrovamp" because its not a clone, but where I would have liked to have seen the game progess for a fictional 3rd edition that never happened, stripped of the Marvel IP. And I also wanted to present the system in a way that showed how versatile it was applied to other genres besides bronze age Marvel supers specifically.

I love that site by the way.

Quote from: Brad;792478Pretty sure Jeff Grubb approves of the site, so no idea wtf you're talking about.

I'm talking about the fact that Jeff Grubb's approval is irrelevant to the disposition of property that does not belong to Jeff Grubb. Marvel Comics and Wizards of the Coast (or whoever inherited TSR's share) own their respective copyrights and trademarks, which according to the website are being used without permission.

Quote from: Phillip;792567I'm talking about the fact that Jeff Grubb's approval is irrelevant to the disposition of property that does not belong to Jeff Grubb. Marvel Comics and Wizards of the Coast (or whoever inherited TSR's share) own their respective copyrights and trademarks, which according to the website are being used without permission.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abandonware

Quote from: Brad;792569http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abandonware

Is that supposed to be your latest attempt at justification for calling retro-clone creators "retarded" for doing what is legal rather than flouting the law? If you would actually state your argument, perhaps we could find some coherence in it!

Quote from: Phillip;792570Is that supposed to be your latest attempt at justification for calling retro-clone creators "retarded" for doing what is legal rather than flouting the law? If you would actually state your argument, perhaps we could find some coherence in it!