QuoteAnd Ancientgamer1970 is completely right. There've been times when I met disgruntled players. That kind of shit doesn't fly well with the RPGA/LFR crowd, let me tell you. 'Deal base damage, knock target prone, and halves target's damage until it recovers weapon? That's effing better than most of my encounter or daily powers!' is a typical response here. To which I say, 'What, you think I shouldn't reward players with imagination because you haven't got any?'

Haha, just antagonizing. Yes, any houserules require mutual trust and shared sense of what's enjoyable.

LOL, it is all good.  I liked the response though...

QuoteDoes this feel like World of Warcraft? Nope. Does it feel like D&D with the volume turned up to 23? OH BY THE GODS OF THE NINE HELLS YES!

Ugh.  And at first level, too.

QuoteLet me say this: I frickin’ love this character. Steve’s playing him brilliantly, and the 4e Rogue Class lets you build an absolutely superb Court Jester – take Deft Strike, Sly Flourish, King’s Castle and Trick Strike as your 1st level Powers, have the padded Jester’s Outfit count as leather armour and give the character Weighted Juggling Balls which count in all respects as Shuriken. Take Training and Skill Focus in Acrobatics and you’re good to go.

Quote“This room looks like it was once a guard barracks. The floor has collapsed and the ceiling leaks, flooding the room below completely. The result is a 20′ deep pool filled with scummy water and no easy way around the edge. A partially waterlogged bunk floats in the water, and you can just make out a rusted iron statue of a beautiful warrior maiden immersed at the bottom of the room below. It appears to have some kind of large octopus-like creature draped around it. The only exit from the room is in the North wall, and it’s going to take a Skill Challenge to get there.”

QuoteMinions are Great Fun. They halve the number of dice rolled during combat, meaning more time can be spent on the descriptive narrative. Minions turn D&D into a storytelling game. How cool is that?

Quoteby the book each blow should fell a Goblin, but instead I use descriptive leeway and keep a karmic tally instead. In one round a Goblin gets hit by a flying Juggling Ball and turns, annoyed, and cracks the Goblin beside him over the head with his handaxe.

Sigh.

Quote from: B.T.;500406Ugh.  And at first level, too.

Sigh.

Yes, it's such a heavy burden when other people enjoy different things than you do, isn't it? Who are you quoting? EDIT: oh, I see, the greywulf site.

Quote from: two_fishes;500416Yes, it's such a heavy burden when other people enjoy different things than you do, isn't it? Who are you quoting?

Then again, nobody should be this:

QuoteDoes this feel like World of Warcraft? Nope. Does it feel like D&D with the volume turned up to 23? OH BY THE GODS OF THE NINE HELLS YES!

enthusiastic about something else then sex, unless some probably illegal substances play a part.

He does sound enthusiastic, and enthusiastic players are generally fun at the table. A guy who goes out of his way to cross-post forum posts so that he can cast the back of his hand to his forehead in an overstated show of contempt, on the other hand, sounds an awful lot like a douche-bag.

Quote from: two_fishes;500426A guy who goes out of his way to cross-post forum posts so that he can cast the back of his hand to his forehead in an overstated show of contempt, on the other hand, sounds an awful lot like a douche-bag.

Or a pretentious storygamer complaining about the less overdramatic who also game.

Quote from: two_fishes;500426He does sound enthusiastic, and enthusiastic players are generally fun at the table. A guy who goes out of his way to cross-post forum posts so that he can cast the back of his hand to his forehead in an overstated show of contempt, on the other hand, sounds an awful lot like a douche-bag.

But I am an awful lot like a douchebag.  His writing, while an attempt to share his positive experience, is precisely what I don't want my games to be about: XTREME D&D.

Quote from: B.T.;500467But I am an awful lot like a douchebag.  His writing, while an attempt to share his positive experience, is precisely what I don't want my games to be about: XTREME D&D.

You must hate FOURTHCORE.....

Quote from: Ancientgamer1970;500333Well, let me say it from this point of view.  I really do not care how people modify their games just as long as they are having fun playing.  I suppose that is the main reason to play games anyways.  

On the other hand, do not expect every player at that table to have fun if the modifications to the game have changed it to the point where it is playing something completely else.

And that is totally cool with me.  I frankly haven't come to a complete conclusion about just how practical extensive houseruling of 4e really is, but I find it interesting that some people have tried.

Quote from: Ancientgamer1970;500333I do not house rule games.  I play them as they are written.  If there is official errata, I, of course, will concede to that BUT I will not house rule a set of rules that work just fine.

I can respect that.  I just have different itches to scratch with my gaming and I am much more willing to houserule to get what I want.  Hence my use of Swords & Wizardy, which really demands it.

-TGA

Quote from: Windjammer;500358The 'deflate hp by 50%' is a houserule that's fairly wide spread. Rich Baker has never played without it, and he was one of the original designers. You see, the intent was that combats DO drag on forever - individual combat rounds fly by fairly quickly, but the intent was that each combat have plenty of rounds. Rich prefers quicker fights, whence the 50% rule. Another variant is to halve only monster hp but let monsters deal bonus damage equal to their level. That means that fights are more swingy, more lethal, and PCs are going to need their hp boosts.

Replacing surges by potions of cure wounds is simply reflavouring the system. You don't need to rewrite the math.

I think that this is an interesting option, and not a game breaker as you point out.  The drawn out combats in 4e really do wear on me a bit and I wouldn't mind fixing that.  I also think that giving the players less cushion against bad decisions is a good thing.  It would certainly be more forgiving than straight low level OD&D, but the players would still have to think carefully about the wisdom of fighting through every encounter.

Quote from: Windjammer;500358As for other stuff, there's my 4E Realms hex map and random encounter tables you can check out here. Using the latter fundamentally changes 4e gameplay. With creatures in the PCs' path vastly beyond their capacity they have to run for hills every now and then. This breaks the '4 encounters until we rest again' mold that players are in, so all the other stuff I do with deflating hp and healing simply rebalances the game. PCs need other resources than hp in my games - clever use of rituals for reconnaissance for one.

That is interesting!  I have to admit that one of the things that most confounds me about the design philosophy of 4e is the apparent need to obsessively balance everything.  The challenge system just seems so soul-less to me.  If I ever ran 4e I just don't think I would use it at all.  I would feel much less constrained by the setup that you outline.

On the other hand, I have never made much use of wandering monster tables, either.  But that is just a preference.

Quote from: Windjammer;500358As for other, more radical houserules to 4E, I'd recommend Greywulf's lair, especially this series (start at bottom): http://greywulf.net/tag/1981/
He wrote that early in 2008 (iirc) and has been playing like that ever since. E.g. he does Roll 3d6 in order for stat generation! PCs in his campaign are vastly underpowered compared to 4E vanilla, but it seems they're having a blast with it. Of course 4E RAW runs on a very strict math - the whole treasure parcel system is one way to ensure that PCs get the item bonuses on their attack and defense rolls they need to 'keep up' with monsters at their level - but, come on, you're a DM of how many decades' worth of D&D experience? Screw balance, just enjoy the game.

I have had chance to look these over and I am glad to see that someone out there is pushing the boundaries of what 4e can do.  As I mentioned upthread I still am uncertain whether it is really worth the effort to mod 4e, but I like that somewhere out there people are trying and having fun with it.

A couple of things jumped out at me:

Quote from: Greywulf's LairHere's my Golden Rule when it comes to designing Skill Challenges: Don't. By nature I'm a Lazy GM. You can guarantee that if you spend an hour working out all of the possible permutations and uses for skills to tackle a particular challenge, they'll think of others that work just as well (if not better), so why do the work? Set the challenge, design the difficulty level and sit back. Let the players do the work instead. Sure, think of a couple of likely skills that will come up, but don't commit anything to paper or pixel. Instead, join in the discussion, push when they need pushing and make the Challenge what it should be – a fun brainstorming session instead of a "guess what skills the GM wants us to use" frustration.

Now see, this is a nugget of wisdom here and may just be the way to fix the really artificial feel of skill challenges as they are written in 4e.  I think that skills challenges are *almost* cool.  This insight just might bring them there.

Quote from: Greywulf's LairBy this point it's worth mentioning that this is 4e D&D, but we're playing without miniatures or battlemat. This is pure in-your-head gaming from start to finish, and y'know what – it's working. Partly that's because we're experienced gamers doing what comes naturally, but mainly it's because we're playing D&D like D&D. Smaller locations and cramped conditions make for less tactical wiggle room, so less need for absolute positioning. Lesson learned: if you want to play D&D without a battlemat, play it small.

Now here they are doing something that I didn't think was viable, namely playing 4e without miniatures.  I suspect that you would have to have a strong player consensus when doing this, as the the game system is built around the very tactical elements that are typically minimized when you do this.  It can't be all that common to play this way, can it?  Interesting, nevertheless.

Quote from: Greywulf's LairLetting the players pick their own magic items is a LOT of fun! Tell 'em the level of the item then just sit back as they fight, negotiate and beg over the spoils. It's a lot more fun than giving them something they don't want so they just sell it for something else instead. This way they get what they're happy with and I (as Lazy GM) don't have to do much thinking. Perfect.

Generating treasure and magic items are something I don't have a lot of experience with in 4e as I have been a player only, and we have only gotten our first haul of magic items at the end of our last session.  For what little I have read it seems like the game suffers from the same obsessive need to balance everything in treasure as it does in combat.  As a DM that philosophy just feels too damn restrictive to me.  But this idea of letting players choose their own magic items found is an interesting one.  I am not 100% sold on the idea, but it is worth some consideration.  Not sure it could be made to work in any system other than 4e, in which the magic items have been apparently carefully balanced as part of a treasure haul.

Quote from: Windjammer;500358Another thing Greywulf started to champion is random character generation:
http://greywulf.net/2010/11/greywulfs-guide-to-4e-character-generation-by-hand/
http://greywulf.net/2010/05/the-joy-of-random/
In my own campaigns too, players select a race+class combo for their level 1 characters, but when these die (when, not if), their replacement PCs are stray wanderers on the road. For the latter we roll race and regional background (FR) randomly:

The randomization of character generation certainly shakes things up a bit!  I am not sure that I would go that far, though.  As a rule I don't do 3D6 straight character gen in D&D.

I like your compromise system, too.  It gives the player the ability to get the character that they want at least in the beginning.


-TGA

Quote from: two_fishes;500367Hi TGA,

I've posted this link around here before, and it might interest you. It's aging a bit now, and I don't know what the current state of the game is, but it might be worth a look.

4E Hack: "Fiction First" Playtest

Thanks for the link!  I am pretty wiped out, so I am going to take a closer look at the material in the morning and let you know what I think.


-TGA

Quote from: two_fishes;500367Hi TGA,

I've posted this link around here before, and it might interest you. It's aging a bit now, and I don't know what the current state of the game is, but it might be worth a look.

4E Hack: "Fiction First" Playtest

I have had a chance to look this over and post my comments.  The first thing that I sound interesting was the mention in the first post (in 2010) of a 4e House Rules subforum on EN World, but when I checked I couldn't see one.  Is that a currently active forum?  I don't frequent EN World so I am not sure if the forum is gone or whether it might be that I am logged in as a guest.  If it is gone, what is the story behind that?  Too little interest in the topic?

Quote from: EN World ThreadNext step: roll 3d6 in order, bumping up stats lower than 8 to 8, and changing one stat to 16.

This is to make sure that you don't know what or who you're going to play before you start playing, but you're always guaranteed an effective character.

I kinda like this idea.  I may steal it for the future.

Quote from: EN World ThreadNext: Skills & background. I changed the skills from the ones such as "Intimidate" and "Dungeoneering" to skills such as "Dragon's Awe" and "Primordial Blood".

This change is supposed to do two things: add flavour and colour to the character, and make it so that you can't just say "I Intimidate him"; you have to describe your action in detail.

This seemed a little pointless, but not a big deal to just rename the skills.

A question.  I do not have an EN World account so can't download the playtest rules yet.  The first post makes several mentions of a "quest" mechanic.  Is that something of his own creation, or is that something in 4e that my DM just isn't using?

It is going to take some more concentrated reading to get a handle on his changes to other things like skills, but I will post my thoughts on those when I can.

By the way, two_fishes, have you played using these rules?  If so, what did you think?


-TGA

Quote from: Windjammer;500362I've never ever DM'ed a single 4E session in my life without using stunts all over the place. Players unfamiliar with my style soon realized what they were dealing with when my NPCs started to use stunts on them. Reverse 'bandit' with 'PC' in the above example and you get the picture. Now it's not simply who rolls better, but who first hits on the nasty idea to use furniture as weapons.

Is 4e your go-to game for fantasy, Windjammer?  When you play what kind of houserules do you use, other than the stunting of course?


-TGA

It's one excellent OP you got there TGA. Thanks for sharing.

I'm assuming that you play S&W White Box, as opposed to the Core and/or Complete Rules, correct?

Quote from: Benoist;500604It's one excellent OP you got there TGA. Thanks for sharing.

I'm assuming that you play S&W White Box, as opposed to the Core and/or Complete Rules, correct?

Thanks, Benoist!  Actually, I play S&W Core.  It was how I was introduced to the game (I am fairly positive that White Box came out after I found the game) and frankly the small differences between the two are not things that are particularly important to me.

I could just as easily use Moldvay Basic and have fun with it with the same houserules, but the advantage of Sword & Wizardry is primarily that it is totally available so that I don't have hunt down copies of the game in used book stores for my players to have a copy!  It also doesn't hurt that S&W Core is slightly closer to original D&D only so that the game is as stripped down as possible for interpretation, but again the differences are vanishingly small and in my mind there is no value in purity tests.  

-TGA