Personally, I dont like the extra books in part because I dont actually want any books at the table. I think they detract from the experience. I understand that some players like that part of the game, and thats great, but I like a game that focuses on the players solving problems with what they have, not with the second paragraph on page 72 of the Advanced Fighters Handbook.

Quote from: Man at Arms on December 17, 2024, 11:18:45 PMHow about releasing 1 big "optional" splat book, for your RPG.  Put the word "Optional", clearly on the front cover.

Then the DM can choose to run a game, either with or without the optional content.

The problem runs rampant, when you add multiple books full of splat.

This is literally what Matt Finch just did with his "Book of Options" for Swords & Wizardry.  I backed the KS, got the book and realized that it actually detracts from the charming simplicity that was Swords & Wizardy.  Thus, I reiterate my older gamer's preference for everything in one book...

Quote from: antonioGUAK on December 16, 2024, 04:19:17 AMin the video of How I'll Run WotC for Elon for RPG pundit say that should not release book that allow you fighter to be a better fighter. and I intrepet that as Elon should not release crunch books.

I don't have a clue how you got that out of what he said.  What he said, in pretty clear terms, is that books should not include new options that are clearly better than what is in the core book.  One obvious reason is that it immediately makes the options in the core book obsolete while requiring players to buy the new book if they don't want to miss out on the new, superior options.  Another is that it produces power creep which makes running the game more and more of a pain in the ass. 

Quote from: kosmos1214 on December 17, 2024, 08:51:48 PM

Quote from: Banjo Destructo on December 17, 2024, 05:06:37 PMI think if you're making a game, you can choose what to focus on, but you should ask your audience what they want and try to supply it to them.

If your customers want splat books, provide them. If they don't, focus on what they do want. You can't try and force a certain audience to be interested in what you make , so you might as well focus on making what they do want (something the current heads of WoTC haven't learned, or have forgotten)

So like, me personally? I used to like books like the monster manual, but now I feel like they're a waste. I know some people like them, but I feel like time would be better served doing monster entries in the adventures you write so that those adventures can be sold as stand-alone products.  And maybe having some general guidelines on how people can make their own monsters for your game. Of course as your library of monsters increases, the temptation rises to put everything you have already made into a new compilation/product to try and sell, so you have to resist that urge, or roll the dice to see if it ends up being worth it.

Personally I think not putting monsters that are needed for a given adventure in the adventure is a big miss step. Or at least border line assinine.
That said I know one splatbook that has been missing from 5e from what I've heard was rules for makeing monsters.Not haveing baseline rules to make gm driven content is an obvious flaw if for no other reason then it increases the load on the gm.

I don't even think a splat book is needed for rules on to how to make monsters.  Elegantly I think these could fit into 2-4 pages of rules in the main book.

I would have argued against power creep - my 5e game goes better when I really lock down on what options players can bring in from later books, and give them a limited menu of spells as well as character choices - but I'm currently having a love affair with the character options in Iskloft.

They don't add classes or subclasses, they *completely replace* the stock classes & subclasses. Translating from the (pseudo-?) Old Norse, these are:

• (Holy) Berserker - bear, death, raven, wolf
• Fighter - berserker, weaponmaster, guard, raider
• Survivor - two-weapon, pet, marksman
• Leader - banner-bearer, tactician, warlord
• Exile - duelist, irishman, outlaw, bard
• Mystic - prophetess, runecarver, witch

I would love to have more dripping-with-flavour different-power-level variant sets of classes like these in thematic setting books, and am toying around with some possibilities for other settings.

I like the idea of option books that make the game different. Say classes and such that make a D&D campaign more Sword & Sorcery, or more Horror, or even fit for Gamma World. They aren't add ons to the original classes and such but replacements, thus you don't increase the overhead, you just have different overhead.

Quote from: a_wanderer on December 16, 2024, 05:20:08 AMAs I see it, 5E's player culture pretty much demands them, so I'm not sure how a leaner game will be viewed by the audience

I don't feel the splatbook argument is reasonable to levy at 5e.  Sure, I could envision a game where all expansion content focuses on new options (and doesn't power creep them), but if you compare 5e to 3.X or more wildly, 4e, it's extremely sparse.  5e represents a huge rollback in splatbook spam compared to earlier versions.

Quote from: Venka on December 19, 2024, 08:37:09 PM

Quote from: a_wanderer on December 16, 2024, 05:20:08 AMAs I see it, 5E's player culture pretty much demands them, so I'm not sure how a leaner game will be viewed by the audience

I don't feel the splatbook argument is reasonable to levy at 5e.  Sure, I could envision a game where all expansion content focuses on new options (and doesn't power creep them), but if you compare 5e to 3.X or more wildly, 4e, it's extremely sparse.  5e represents a huge rollback in splatbook spam compared to earlier versions.

I agree. My intended point wasn't the comparison in severity (5e is leagues better in that regard), but to say that 5e is a very player-oriented system in marketing and design.

The books that sell the most after the core set are more options. A whole optimization industry developed, with full time YouTubers who go over elaborate builds and statistics for 45-80 minutes per video and multi million 3PP crowdfunding campaigns for them.

Also, at least in my view, there's a very strict "RAW" culture and a base expectation that at least every "official" book published should be available to players. That's aided by the fact that it isn't easy to filter content in that manner in D&DBeyond.

Each of the books that did come out made characters stronger, it really stands out when you look at very recent entries like the twilight cleric or the spell Silvery barbs.

New player options revitalize the interest and feeds the beast. I spoke to people with 10-20 character builds that just sit in the drawer, ready for hypothetical future play and most of them will never get to the table. Since each build takes a while, people see value in it even outside of play, otherwise they wouldn't have done all the work.[This phenomenon is also present in PF2E (a.k.a. PathBuilder), but there it's free.]

That doesn't happen if new splatbooks aren't released, players expect it from the system by this point IMO.

Quote from: a_wanderer on December 20, 2024, 02:08:19 AMvery recent entries like the twilight cleric

That "very recent" example has been out for just over 4 years while 5e has itself been out for about 10 years. When something has been out for almost half the game's lifespan, it's hard for me to think of it as "very recent."

Of course, there are those that consider the Clans to be a new addition to BattleTech despite them having been in the game for 35 years (of its 40 year lifespan), so...

I love Splat books, especially if they are lore heavy, I feel in most of the books, lets say in the D&D books, they talk so little about a lot of things, like the elemental planes, its just a few paragraphs, i think splat books for each plane would be a great idea.

Quote from: HappyDaze on December 20, 2024, 09:09:01 AM

Quote from: a_wanderer on December 20, 2024, 02:08:19 AMvery recent entries like the twilight cleric

That "very recent" example has been out for just over 4 years while 5e has itself been out for about 10 years. When something has been out for almost half the game's lifespan, it's hard for me to think of it as "very recent."

Of course, there are those that consider the Clans to be a new addition to BattleTech despite them having been in the game for 35 years (of its 40 year lifespan), so...

No, the Clans aren't a new addition to the game.  But they are a terrible one (which is what some of us have been saying since they were new)...

Quote from: Eirikrautha on December 20, 2024, 04:06:39 PM

Quote from: HappyDaze on December 20, 2024, 09:09:01 AM

Quote from: a_wanderer on December 20, 2024, 02:08:19 AMvery recent entries like the twilight cleric

That "very recent" example has been out for just over 4 years while 5e has itself been out for about 10 years. When something has been out for almost half the game's lifespan, it's hard for me to think of it as "very recent."

Of course, there are those that consider the Clans to be a new addition to BattleTech despite them having been in the game for 35 years (of its 40 year lifespan), so...

No, the Clans aren't a new addition to the game.  But they are a terrible one (which is what some of us have been saying since they were new)...

I quite like the concept of the Clans as the returning heirs of the Star League that were corrupted into a mockery of what they were intended to represent. OTOH, I feel that the execution of the Clans and the plots around them has often been lacking in many ways.

Quote from: HappyDaze on December 20, 2024, 09:09:01 AM

Quote from: a_wanderer on December 20, 2024, 02:08:19 AMvery recent entries like the twilight cleric

That "very recent" example has been out for just over 4 years while 5e has itself been out for about 10 years. When something has been out for almost half the game's lifespan, it's hard for me to think of it as "very recent."

Of course, there are those that consider the Clans to be a new addition to BattleTech despite them having been in the game for 35 years (of its 40 year lifespan), so...

True. I meant recent of the splatbooks released, as in afer Xanatar anf Tasha.

I forgot about the giants one, haven't been following 5e closesly for a while as I went on to play other systems.

Quote from: a_wanderer on December 20, 2024, 02:08:19 AMNew player options revitalize the interest and feeds the beast. I spoke to people with 10-20 character builds that just sit in the drawer, ready for hypothetical future play and most of them will never get to the table. Since each build takes a while, people see value in it even outside of play, otherwise they wouldn't have done all the work.[This phenomenon is also present in PF2E (a.k.a. PathBuilder), but there it's free.]

That doesn't happen if new splatbooks aren't released, players expect it from the system by this point IMO.

That's probably the crux of the issue. If you're publishing D&D or an adjacent game in the 21st century, and you're not expressly doing a rules-lite/retro game, you have to publish a semi-constant flow of additional character options. Whether it's good for the game or not, it's expected. If you don't do it, you'll get your commercial lunch eaten by someone who does.

As far as whether it's good or bad for the game, I have a pretty straightforward rule of thumb: The simpler your classes are, the more of them you can get away with having. 3rd edition really got into trouble because not only did it publish a ton of class options, the classes themselves were really involved. Meanwhile something like WFRP or Shadow of the Demon Lord can have scores of classes/professions, and you rarely hear complaints, because the classes are much simpler.

I like options, but they should probably be limited to how many a character can have.  Then again too many options can turn the game into optimizing ones character rather then playing the game.  Creating more classes and races that are unique to their selves with the same limiting options may be a better idea. On the other hand you may have the same issue of making the just right character.  That stuff is cool to play with for a while.  I always find myself returning to simplicity.