I had originally posted this in the 'Questioning Chirine ba Kal" thread, but I'd like to get as many ideas as possible from people if they wouldn't mind...

I'd like to pose a question of my own, once again, and I'd be obliged to everyone who'd like to weigh in on it...

The GM for the 5e campaign that I recent left has asked me to return, as an 'associate GM' of sorts; he and his players would like to take the opportunity to visit Tekumel for a while, and play an RPG in Ye Olden Style. As it's been explained to me, the GM will continue to handle the 5e mechanics as needed for the game sessions, and I will be running the game session in my usual style and manner.

I think the best way to describe this would be 'D & D 5e for Tekumel', with the 5e mechanics and Phil's world setting.

I have no trouble running the game; what concerns me is presentation and accessibility. 5e, as i've seen it being played by this and other groups at the FLGS, offers me effectively nothing in the kind of elements that I like to see in my gaming. It's usually a gridded battle mat with wet-erase markers and pre-painted figures as a tactical display, with none of the sheer spectacle that I love to present in my games. Also, normally, I'd bring some of my copies of EPT to the table for people to look at and get a little introduction to the world-setting, but I've been put off by some of the reactions that I've gotten by people - specifically, sniggering over the artwork. My thought is to present the players with this excerpt from Book One of "To Serve The Petal Throne" as a take-away sheet for the players:

Since before the beginnings of recorded time, humankind had looked up into the night sky at the myriad points of light and wondered. Eventually, in the fullness of that time, the first steps were taken out into that starry night. Humankind went, in a single bound, from being alone on their homeworld to being part of a galaxy-spanning community of beings of diverse shapes and sizes. Some were friendly, some were hostile, and some plainly disinterested in the doings of humans and neutral to them.

Humankind spread across the stars, and established their own empire; the Lords of Humanspace assimilated many technologies and sciences, and eventually became masters of matter and energy. This mastery brought them in to alliances and conflicts, and in one particular case brought them a contract with another of the galaxy's races; they wanted to have an entire planet adapted for their use, and this the Lords of Humanspace could do.

One of five worlds orbiting a bright, hot star, the chosen planet was at the juncture of several important trade routes between the more densely-populated areas of space; the world was wanted as a trading center and a place where the rulers of the galaxy could rest from their labors.

It was of little matter that the world was already inhabited; the Lords of Humanspace did not consider such minor things as being worthy of their notice. Mighty weapons were deployed, even mightier engines of change and transformation were brought into play, and the new world became a place where humankind and their allies could call home. The inhabitants were allowed to survive; to survive, and nurse their hatred of the alien beings who had transformed their planet and confined them to the more remote regions of it.

The Lords of Humanspace, and their allies, for all their power and mastery were not the most highly endowed races in the universe. Others, older and more alien yet, held that position, and they too had their rivalries and conflicts. To these older races, the all-powerful Lords of Humanspace were as toys to a child.

There came a time when these older races had a mighty conflict, and employed powers unimaginable to Humankind. The newly-transformed world was cast out of space and time, and the trapped peoples of the new world looked up into a sky without stars.

The high civilization that the Lords of Humanspace had brought to the new world collapsed - here, suddenly; there, slowly. Humankind is, however, nothing if not adaptable and resilient; civilization began a long, slow climb back into the light and out of the utter darkness that had befallen it. New technologies of the mind, which became known as 'sorcery', replaced the lost technology of the Ancients – as the Lords of Humanspace had become known – and empires and kingdoms rose and fell as the centuries passed into dust.

Humans and their alien allies built and strove, and created new civilizations out of the ashes of the old. Heroes and villains abounded, and new legends were born out of the tales of their battles and quests. In every generation, new heroes and heroines were born, and their legends added to the mythology and history of their world. Gods and goddesses, some based on the memories of the old races that has cast the world into darkness and some created by the mnds of their worshippers, abounded and made their presence in the world known to their worshippers and their competitors.

Some traces of the old technology survived, and became highly sought-after and coveted treasures. Some of what was left of the old world was beneficial and useful; other devices could kill at a touch. All of the inhabitants of the world understood this, and the quest for these wonders was left to a new breed of 'adventurers', who took the most horrific risks in order to obtain the most generous of rewards.

And so it begins; tales of wonder, and of people not yet born, and of lands not yet known…
Come with us; our journey is just begun…

If you were players in this situation, what would you like to see to help you understand what you've gotten your selves into?

A simple paragraph telling me what your expectations of what the characters are supposed to be doing as a group and a second paragraph describing the immediately accessible portion of the setting in clear terms without flowery prose.

I think those paragraphs were a good start but then I would need to know:
Where am I from? Which is where the character thinks he or she is from, not the cosmology.
Why am I stepping out my front door onto the road that goes on forever? Which is what reasons to I have to go and do.
Who do I know?
What places and institutions do I know?

Quote from: HappyDaze;1005071A simple paragraph telling me what your expectations of what the characters are supposed to be doing as a group and a second paragraph describing the immediately accessible portion of the setting in clear terms without flowery prose.

Very cool! Thank you! Normally, I get asked for the flowery prose, so this is very helpful.

Quote from: WillInNewHaven;1005072I think those paragraphs were a good start but then I would need to know:
Where am I from? Which is where the character thinks he or she is from, not the cosmology.
Why am I stepping out my front door onto the road that goes on forever? Which is what reasons to I have to go and do.
Who do I know?
What places and institutions do I know?

Gotcha. The players are an established party of adventures in the GMs Blackmoor game who need jobs, and they've been invited to a paying gig. I like your suggestions - very useful and helpful!

Quote from: chirine ba kal;1005074Gotcha. The players are an established party of adventures in the GMs Blackmoor game who need jobs, and they've been invited to a paying gig. I like your suggestions - very useful and helpful!

Enjoy it. Oddly enough, I rarely run for characters who think of themselves as adventurers.

Hopefully this helps

Quote from: chirine ba kal;1005070I think the best way to describe this would be 'D & D 5e for Tekumel', with the 5e mechanics and Phil's world setting.

I don't see any real technical issues with this. Especially after the release of Adventures in Middle Earth showed how D&D 5e can be bent and twisted to fit a setting with very different assumptions.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;1005070I have no trouble running the game; what concerns me is presentation and accessibility. 5e, as i've seen it being played by this and other groups at the FLGS, offers me effectively nothing in the kind of elements that I like to see in my gaming. It's usually a gridded battle mat with wet-erase markers and pre-painted figures as a tactical display, with none of the sheer spectacle that I love to present in my games.

D&D 5e can work like how you use EPT in this regard.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;1005070Also, normally, I'd bring some of my copies of EPT to the table for people to look at and get a little introduction to the world-setting, but I've been put off by some of the reactions that I've gotten by people - specifically, sniggering over the artwork. My thought is to present the players with this excerpt from Book One of "To Serve The Petal Throne" as a take-away sheet for the players:

It may work. I always thought it focused way to much on the science fiction aspects when the appeal is about the unique cultures and races of the setting. Granted it atmospheric to know it started as a "lost" colony of a star spanning human civilization but the last three paragraphs is where the meat is. If the preceeding paragraphs could be condensed into one or two paragraphs that would make it a lot tighter.

But like I said it may work and you have run Tekumel multiple times so know what important so if this is  what you need then use it. And certainly when it came to a Traveller campaign my handout wasn't that brief.

5e Rules Comments

1) Initiative is 1d20+Dex and uses individual individual. Once rolled the order is set.

2) Every character gets as Major Action, a Movement, a Minor Action, a Reaction, and can do a short interaction with an object (pick it up, ready, etc). Major Actions are attacks and spells. Minor Actions and Reaction are used by special abilities which are clearly labeled. Minor actions occur during a character's turn. A reaction can be done anytime during the combat round on anybody's turn but can only be done once.

3) The basic four classes that work most like OD&D are Fighter:Champion, Wizard:Evoker, Rogue:Thief, and Cleric:Life Domain. The D&D 5e Basic rules focuses on those four classes.

4) Compared to OD&D, characters and monsters have more hit points. But also do more damage. In my experience the outcome of 5e combat is similar to happens when I referee OD&D combat. What the inflated hit points and damage does is allow more variety in what characters can do. However the basic four classes mentioned are the ones that operate the closest to their OD&D Counterparts.

5) Characters have skills, roll 15 or better for medium/average. Characters can use any skills except some are proficient in some which allows them to add their proficiency bonus.  The prof bonus starts out at +2 at 1st level. Skill add in the relevant attribute bonus. For example Stealth (Dex).

6) Attribute bonus go up by +1 for every 2 points in an Attribute. 10 is +0, 12 is +1, up to 18 which is +4.

That it in a nutshell, everything is a detail of a class or creature.

Again I will look at EPT and see if I can come up with anything to help 5e feel more Tekumel.

Well ... I like flowery prose, and my first RPG experience being EPT, back in the 70s, I'd love to go back.

But that's not the prose that would grab a character.  It's not really relevant to one.  Consider: Tekumel vanished from Humanspace a LONG time ago.  Reasonably, this wouldn't even be like devoting most of your intro to a modern-day espionage campaign to "In the Land Between the Rivers, Sarru-kin son of La-ibum of Akkad conquered a mighty empire, the first mankind would ever know ..." because Sargon the Great reigned only about 4500 years back.  I'd wager that a contemporary Tsolyani thinks no more about Humanspace than we do about the Paleolithic era.

Quote from: estar;10050803) The basic four classes that work most like OD&D are Fighter:Champion, Wizard:Evoker, Rogue:Thief, and Cleric:Life Domain. The D&D 5e Basic rules focuses on those four classes.

You could say you're running a "5e Basic" game, aimed at new players? Or core 5e without the optional feat & multiclass rules. No need for minis & square-counting in 5e either.

One thing to be aware of is 5e changes its feel very sharply at 5th level; a bunch of what would previously have been high level spells like Sending & Spirit Guardians are available at 5th. 1-4 plays much more old school, so I recommend sticking to those levels a good while.

What is EPT?

Quote from: chirine ba kal;1005073Very cool! Thank you! Normally, I get asked for the flowery prose, so this is very helpful.

Honestly, if I were to include flowery prose, I would cut your narrative down to (additions added in brackets):

Quote from: chirine ba kal;1005070 [This game takes place in the future, after human civilization (hereafter referred to as humanspace) expands to the stars]
The high civilization that the Lords of Humanspace had brought to the new world collapsed - here, suddenly; there, slowly. Humankind is, however, nothing if not adaptable and resilient; civilization began a long, slow climb back into the light and out of the utter darkness that had befallen it. New technologies of the mind, which became known as 'sorcery', replaced the lost technology of the Ancients – as the Lords of Humanspace had become known – and empires and kingdoms rose and fell as the centuries passed into dust.

Humans and their alien allies built and strove, and created new civilizations out of the ashes of the old.  Some traces of the [old civilization survived, as did some] old technology,  bec[oming] coveted treasures. Some was was beneficial and useful; other could kill at a touch. All of the inhabitants of the world understood this, and the quest for these wonders was left to a new breed of 'adventurers[.]'

And so it begins; tales of wonder, and of people not yet born, and of lands not yet known...
Come with us; our journey is just begun...

Even then, it might give the false impression that the main thrust of the game is trying to get back out to the stars.

Quote from: Psikerlord;1005097What is EPT?

Empire of the Petal Throne, AKA the Tekumel RPG.

Don't know anything about Tekumel or EPT except what I've read on this forum, but if you feel more comfortable doing it, 5E works just fine using side by side initiative instead of the default rules.  If you are used to that, it will probably run much faster that way.  (Using side by side for me cuts out anywhere from 40% to 60% of the combat time, and I'm experienced running both cyclic and side by side.)  The "rules GM" can use the simple variant in the 5E DMG, lift an early D&D version as is, or make up some other variant.  All that is required is a small amount of GM adjudication on when particular abilities end that were formally "end of your next turn."  

I've noticed that changing the initiative that way produces a much more old school feel in 5E.  The cyclic initiative itself isn't that bad, but the change in focus and some of the side effects and the generally slower combats is a subtle but ever present drag on the action.

Don't forget the simple things--if the money in Tekumel differs from that presented in the D&D player hand book, having a little cheat sheet for each player may be no bad thing--when I ran Cthulhu Invictus I put together a little sheet describing the exchanges of different Roman money--how many ases in a sesteritus, for example.  If the equipment list is going to be different, be sure to set that out too.  But then I like to have a little briefing folder available for each player--it has the character sheet, a map of anyplace that the character might be familiar with (but the player not, like the city lay out of Ancient Rome), anything like the money example described above, and a list of any really really important NPC's that the character would have heard of.  All this goes in a little paper binder together with some plastic page protectors for the character sheet, a couple of sheets of lined paper and some graph paper.

The player then gets to have this as a  nice little souvenir of the campaign, if they like such things.

Thank you, everyone, for your comments. I think I'm going to can the idea of any hand-outs. As I think this is going to be a one-off, I don't think they'll be needed. If I thought I could get out of this game gracefully, I would; I think I'm just too old and obsolete for the modern gaming scene at this point. While I can run Tekumel, and do the number-crunching for the three-four existing Tekumel RPGs for games, I am not 'getting' 5e to any extent. I think it's time to stay with the 'open table' model of gaming that I found very successful at the FLGS's Free RPG Day.

I should note that I have not played D & D to any real extant. I played something called 'Blackmoor' with Dave, something called 'Greyhawk' with Gary, and something called 'Tekumel' with Phil. I have about three hours of play time with Gronan's 'Rams Horn'. The three 5e game sessions over this past year were the only ones that I have ever played for any edition, and for me it's a completely alien style of play. I frankly didn't like what I was seeing, and the 5e rules lawyer player didn't do anything for me either.

The problem, for me, is that I've been by and large the public face of Tekumel for forty years, and it's biggest booster. I'm expected to run Tekumel by everybody I meet in gaming, without the people with the expectations having any real idea of what I do or how I do it. I do love running other things, like Barsoom or the Lord Meren mysteries, but I very rarely get asked about them; it's always Tekumel, and always RPGs.

So it goes, and thank you all once again for your very welcome help!