I am NOT the kind of gamer that generally gets upset by gaming related stuff, even if it is in poor taste or offensive but this one has my panties in a wad. It looks like Dungeons Deep, the next set of prepainted Pathfinder Miniatures, is going to have a miniature called a 'Pickled Punk (http://www.pathfinderminis.com/gallery19.htm)'. So what you say?
Well, if you want to know the real world origins of this term, check out THIS (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pickled_punks) Wikipedia article. What it doesn't say is that most modern examples came from the stillborn or aborted remains of the children of African-American mothers.
Poor taste indeed.
It's a game about killing and looting and this bugs you?
And shouldn't you be posting your displeasure over on RPG.net so they can work themselves into a lather?
I'm guessing this is based on a monster? Is the monster entry racist? Or perhaps they ignored the racist elements to pull on some fear of a tale or legend to create a horrible monster?
There are hundreds of creatures in D&D lore derived or inspired by legends from various cultures across the world.
So, how is a Banshee any less or more racist than the Pickled Punk? The Banshee arguably shows one of the most horrifying examples of ghosts from Irish legend. Was the Banshee always portrayed as such in Irish legend?
What about modern horror movies? The Japanese version of the Ghost Story scares the piss out of me. You're cursed, you die. Period. NO way out. The Grudge is a scary concept. Do you feel the American movies are disrespectful or racist of Japanese culture?
Look. You could say that including creatures based on legends and myths of a culture is an inclusive endeavor. Otherwise we get the opposite. You can't include ANY legend or myth outside your own cultural upbringing otherwise you're a racist. Which is absurd. It's the same stereotyping that pervades anti-gay culture. Oh, you like purple? You're gay. You like Barbara Streisand and musicals? You're gay.
No. If you are a man and you prefer sex with men, you're gay.
If you hate people not of your race, you're racist.
Pretending that a monster created from an aborted fetus is scary as shit and then trying to either a) defeat it in combat or b) run for your life is decidedly NOT racist.
Maybe we should stop trying to WITCH HUNT with our pretend psychic super FBI profiling techniques and instead base our decisions of how to relate to a person based on actual human interaction? I know. Crazy.
Here I was thinking the Internet was going to be a great revolution and instead we just cast a fucking spell and turned the world into a goddamn Muarey Povich show. The fact I actually typed his name correctly BEFORE looking it up clearly shows I somehow am part of the problem. Fuck. Me.
That's actually kind of funny considering how much Paizo is like "look how socially progressive we are: we have so many openly gay, bi, trans and non-white characters! See? SEE?" and then they have an aborted fetus monster toy figurine for PCs to murder.
EDIT: not passing judgment, or anything. It's just funny.
Never heard the term until today. The article you reference gives the origin as a carny term and not a reference to black women's aborted fetuses. In fact, despite you saying the modern understanding is racial, you don't point to anything that this is so. Finally, for a company (Paizo) that bends over backwards to not offend any minority groups, you've got a high mountain to climb to show that this is intentional on Paizo's part.
Never heard the term before today either. A few google searches on Pickled Punk and African Amerian or Black Babies isn't bringing up anything to corroborate. Got a source on that?
The tale of Mme Colombe Chatri the "Stone-Child of Sens" is kind of creepy. And it is owned by M. Estienne Carteron, a wealthy Paris goldsmith, so my Honor+Intrigue players could see it. I'm sure there is something sufficiently horrible that can be derived from that information.
I got an adventure hook so surprisingly this thread was not just a colossal waste of everyone's time.
You should probably not play RPG's, where bad things can happen in the fantasy worlds of people's imaginations.
Quote from: Ratman_tf;830965Never heard the term before today either. A few google searches on Pickled Punk and African Amerian or Black Babies isn't bringing up anything to corroborate. Got a source on that?
Only personal experience. I am friends with someone that worked in the biology lab of a university in the South. Almost all of their 'pickled punks' came from African-American origins. It was common knowledge that this was the way these fetuses were obtained in the early 20th century.
April 1st called. It wants its stupid back.
Yes. It is an obscure carny term for the things.
No. It is not racist as they come from all manner of sources including medical anomalies collections. Disrespectful? Yes. Racist? Dont be a moron. We are talking about carnies here were they came up with any number of terms and gimmics to deceive and shock the rubes.
Quote from: Omega;830975April 1st called. It wants its stupid back.
Yes. It is an obscure carny term for the things.
No. It is not racist as they come from all manner of sources including medical anomalies collections. Disrespectful? Yes. Racist? Dont be a moron. We are talking about carnies here were they came up with any number of terms and gimmics to deceive and shock the rubes.
I NEVER said the term was racist, I said it was in POOR TASTE. I still contend that naming a monster after a carny slang term for a preserved dead baby is not the best marketing idea in the world.
I can find better things to feel outraged about than a miniature.
Quote from: AnthonyRoberson;830976I NEVER said the term was racist, I said it was in POOR TASTE. I still contend that naming a monster after a carny slang term for a preserved dead baby is not the best marketing idea in the world.
That I agree on. Personally I'd call them Stone Children. It is a term I am all too familiar with unfortunately.
Pickled Punk is too joke feeling. Not to mention I was expecting a drunken punk rocker mini. :o
Quote from: AnthonyRoberson;830976I NEVER said the term was racist, I said it was in POOR TASTE. I still contend that naming a monster after a carny slang term for a preserved dead baby is not the best marketing idea in the world.
Well if that's all that is bothering you, call it a lithopedion, the actual medical term for a calcified fetus.
The down side is that calling it a lithopedion makes the stone fetus monster seem like it is of Greek origin which may or may not fit your campaign setting.
Quote from: AnthonyRoberson;830974Only personal experience. I am friends with someone that worked in the biology lab of a university in the South. Almost all of their 'pickled punks' came from African-American origins. It was common knowledge that this was the way these fetuses were obtained in the early 20th century.
QuotePickled punks is the carny term for human fetuses preserved in jars of formaldehyde and used as sideshow attractions.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pickled_punks
I'm just trying to get this straight. Are you saying that the biology lab was a carnival attraction? Or that they used carny terminology in the lab? Or is wiki incorrect?
Quote from: Ratman_tf;830985http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pickled_punks
I'm just trying to get this straight. Are you saying that the biology lab was a carnival attraction? Or that they used carny terminology in the lab? Or is wiki incorrect?
The term 'pickled punk' may have originated in carnivals but I know for a fact my lab friend used it for the preserved fetuses in their lab as well. I don't know how widespread it was or is.
Quote from: AnthonyRoberson;830986The term 'pickled punk' may have originated in carnivals but I know for a fact my lab friend used it for the preserved fetuses in their lab as well. I don't know how widespread it was or is.
Ok. Well. Yeah. Poor taste. Rock on Pathfinder. I have a gross sense of humor so I can dig it.
I think you're overreacting. It is unlikely Paizo would knowingly base a mini on a term with the modern connotations you claim. Probably they just haven't spent a lot of time hanging out in biology labs learning weird lingo. That your "modern examples" amount to to "what a friend of your said" doesn't add a lot of weight either.
All that said I think it's a poor monster name.
I don't have any Pathfinder books. Is this a creature that's appeared in one of their beastiaries?
Quote from: Raven;830990All that said I think it's a poor monster name.
If you don't like lithopedion then go with Tiyanak (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiyanak)an actual Philippine baby monster said to come from aborted fetuses.
I first encountered 'pickled punks' in 1998, in the TSR Ravenloft supplement
Carnival. From the log of the Product Spotlight chat on TSR's old website
Quote[Designer John W. Mangrum]: The pickled punks are a classic sideshow exhibit. I took that, inspired by a visit to the Mutter Museum in Philadelphia, and added a touch of Cronenburg.
I feel fairly certain that the Pathfinder version comes from the same source, either directly or through
Carnival. (F. Wesley Schneider was a big Ravenloft fan.)
So what's the backstory on the Pathfinder version? Ravenloft's monstrous version had a sort of 'budding' origin off of a cursed NPC.
Quote from: Necrozius;830960That's actually kind of funny considering how much Paizo is like "look how socially progressive we are: we have so many openly gay, bi, trans and non-white characters! See? SEE?" and then they have an aborted fetus monster toy figurine for PCs to murder.
EDIT: not passing judgment, or anything. It's just funny.
I could say something about 'social progressives' and the fanatical devotion that many of them seem to have to abortion ... but I'd want to know more about the backstory about the PF version.
Quote from: Armchair Gamer;830995I could say something about 'social progressives' and the fanatical devotion that many of them seem to have to abortion ... but I'd want to know more about the backstory about the PF version.
Yeah, aborted fetus monsters are not officially un-PC, and D&D has had the Atropal (deific abortion monster) for a long time.
I don't think calling it racist will cut the mustard, but I guess if you could somehow convince Paizo that aborted fetus monster minis were offensive to the transgender community, they might recall it.
Don't care.
Yeah, not bothered.
Lots of monsters, creatures, whatever in Fantasy and Myth have gruesome backstories/origins.
Seems to me a fuss is being made over nothing.
Quote from: Flashman;830961Never heard the term until today. The article you reference gives the origin as a carny term and not a reference to black women's aborted fetuses. In fact, despite you saying the modern understanding is racial, you don't point to anything that this is so. Finally, for a company (Paizo) that bends over backwards to not offend any minority groups, you've got a high mountain to climb to show that this is intentional on Paizo's part.
It's a high mountain, but SJW's get triple the XP when they bring down one of their own. That makes it worth it.
Awesome! Pathfinder finally produced something useful to me.
Quote from: Bren;830968The tale of Mme Colombe Chatri the "Stone-Child of Sens" is kind of creepy.
Absolutely! That baby's going into a CoC event.
The best part is the Stone Child of Sens has been missing since the late 19th century!!!
Who took it? Why? Did it leave on its own? What does Professor Reinhardt really know?
I have to have one of these.
Lord Hobie
The real question of course is:
If a Pickled Punk picked a peck of pickled peppers,
how many pickled peppers did a Pickled Punk pick?
jg
Quote from: Bren;830992If you don't like lithopedion then go with Tiyanak (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiyanak)an actual Philippine baby monster said to come from aborted fetuses.
To put things into context; Philippine culture has traditionally been incredibly conservative and overwhelmingly Catholic-influenced.
So, abortion is considered a HUMONGOUS sin which taints the baby. Go figure.
To be fair, its not just aborted or undead babies that turn out to be tiyanaks: in some stories, they're actual beasts in the shape of babies that lure unwary travelers into taking it home then devouring them in their sleep.
Quote from: crazyfunster;831043To put things into context; Philippine culture has traditionally been incredibly conservative and overwhelmingly Catholic-influenced.
I freely admit I don't know what the genesis or folk history of the Tiyanaks is. I suspect that the Tiyanak has an origin or underlying myth prior to the Spanish conquest of the Philippines. Abortion monsters are not a commonly seen thing in Catholic countries world wide which we would expect if Catholicism was the root cause of the aborted baby monster myths.
And if people eating fetus monsters were not enough, the Philippines also features monsters that eat fetuses like the Aswang, Matruculan, and Manananggal. Some of these Asian and Austronesians monsters are seriously weird and creepy.
Never heard the term until today. Doesn't sound racist to me.
Yeah, I only have so much outrage to spare and most of that goes to stupid politicians and silly beliefs. I can't spend any on game figures.
Good looking miniatures though. I owned and painted hundreds back in the 80's. Mostly Grenadier and Ral Partha 25mm but some others too. I had to abandon them during a move however. Still breaks my heart. Someday I'll want to rebuild a collection again.
Quote from: trechriron;830958Here I was thinking the Internet was going to be a great revolution and instead we just cast a fucking spell and turned the world into a goddamn Muarey Povich show. The fact I actually typed his name correctly BEFORE looking it up clearly shows I somehow am part of the problem. Fuck. Me.
So you typed his name correctly, looked it up, and then changed it to be wrong?
That's a little weird.
Quote from: AnthonyRoberson;830976I NEVER said the term was racist, I said it was in POOR TASTE. I still contend that naming a monster after a carny slang term for a preserved dead baby is not the best marketing idea in the world.
Yes, but beyond claiming that it's racist because of some anecdotes you heard once you haven't explained why it's in poor taste. And that carries even less weight now that you're backpedaling wildly away from your claim that it was racist.
Quote from: Armchair Gamer;830995I feel fairly certain that the Pathfinder version comes from the same source, either directly or through Carnival. (F. Wesley Schneider was a big Ravenloft fan.)
So what's the backstory on the Pathfinder version? Ravenloft's monstrous version had a sort of 'budding' origin off of a cursed NPC.
Pickled Punk from Pathfinder SRD. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/undead/pickled-punk)
Quote from: Bren;831046I freely admit I don't know what the genesis or folk history of the Tiyanaks is. I suspect that the Tiyanak has an origin or underlying myth prior to the Spanish conquest of the Philippines. Abortion monsters are not a commonly seen thing in Catholic countries world wide which we would expect if Catholicism was the root cause of the aborted baby monster myths.
And if people eating fetus monsters were not enough, the Philippines also features monsters that eat fetuses like the Aswang, Matruculan, and Manananggal. Some of these Asian and Austronesians monsters are seriously weird and creepy.
Neither am I an expert on folk mythology from the Philippines, despite being Filipino. Theres no single xomprehensive and unified description for these creatures, outside of a general thirst for blood and human flesh.
Part of that reason is how scattered human civilization was in the islands, before Spain.
They do have some general unifying traits: like the aforementioned manananggal.
Its a bog-standard befanged and clawed ghoul posing as a normal human; except with the added twist of being able to detach its upper half to hunt from the air.
Quote from: Justin Alexander;831054Pickled Punk from Pathfinder SRD. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/undead/pickled-punk)
From the linked article:
QuoteSome necromancers (especially those on the edge of sanity) and some intelligent undead cultivate a fondness for pickled punks and regard them as their children. They talk to their various jars in cooing tones and are known to even carry around favored specimens on outings and social calls, often granting them names and imagined personalities.
This just keeps getting better and better. And the talking in cooing tones totally fits in with a SAN 0 Call of Cthulhu villain.
Quote from: Bren;830968I got an adventure hook so surprisingly this thread was not just a colossal waste of everyone's time.
Same here!
Thanks, OP
I suggest you resist all attempts to force you to buy it.
(of course if no one is forcing you to buy it then you really have nothing to complain about seeing as how it doesn't affect you in anyway whatsoever and its none of your damn business what other people create, sell, buy and enjoy.)
https://youtu.be/TEe-N80w7Rs
Some mood music to accompany this thread.
Creepy? Yeah.
In poor taste? Is anything from a carnival in good taste? Besides the cotton candy of course.
Racist? I don't know if Punk Shows are racist, but a Biology Dept. only having black fetuses certainly points to something, but Punk Shows isn't it.
Great nightmare fuel though, just think of all of Herbert West's little children floating in their jars of Reanimator fluid...
Quote from: AnthonyRoberson;830953I am NOT the kind of gamer that generally gets upset by gaming related stuff, even if it is in poor taste or offensive but this one has my panties in a wad. It looks like Dungeons Deep, the next set of prepainted Pathfinder Miniatures, is going to have a miniature called a 'Pickled Punk (http://www.pathfinderminis.com/gallery19.htm)'. So what you say?
Well, if you want to know the real world origins of this term, check out THIS (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pickled_punks) Wikipedia article. What it doesn't say is that most modern examples came from the stillborn or aborted remains of the children of African-American mothers.
Poor taste indeed.
Hm. Okay. It doesn't offend my sensibilities at all. But I'm not a very sensitive fellow. I guess all I can say is...
(http://i278.photobucket.com/albums/kk119/ballbd/Freaks_zpsc05f3b79.jpg~original)
Quote from: AnthonyRoberson;830974Only personal experience. I am friends with someone that worked in the biology lab of a university in the South. Almost all of their 'pickled punks' came from African-American origins. It was common knowledge that this was the way these fetuses were obtained in the early 20th century.
The "I heard this from a friend" defense might work in other *ahem*, safer parts of the internet, but around here you need a better case than that.
Interesting monster, thanks for the link Alexandrian!
In other news, THEY DO IT IN THE SOUTH! OH NOS!!!
Quote from: Warboss Squee;831080The "I heard this from a friend" defense might work in other *ahem*, safer parts of the internet, but around here you need a better case than that.
Eh, he said it's anecdotal, he doesn't know it's true, his friend might have been BS'ing him, and he's letting us know that. He's not stating it's fact, and it's up to us to decide to believe or not.
Personally, finding out what it is is freaking creepy and nightmare fuel, but... Other than thinking it's in poor taste, I have no problems if you really want to Ravenloft style campaign, or even just a villain. Hell, it gave me an idea for another D&D session I'm going to do, and if this creeps me out, I can only imagine what kind of effect it'll have on my PC's... *rubs hands*
I am more offended that they fucked up the Elder Thing and only gave it two wings! :banghead:
I don't particularly share your offense, but on the other hand you're also not calling for the dissolution of the company, the heads of the art designer, a ban, a boycott, or anything else, so I don't really care. I appreciate that you're just expressing displeasure, rather than hand-wringing and calling for the pitchforks and stuff.
You don't like it? Cool. Don't like it. You can dislike it, other people can like it, and I can keep on not giving a fuck. Everyone's happy.
This is outrageous.
i still prefer the atropal for best stilborn featus monster.
Quote from: S'mon;831006Yeah, aborted fetus monsters are not officially un-PC, and D&D has had the Atropal (deific abortion monster) for a long time.
I don't think calling it racist will cut the mustard, but I guess if you could somehow convince Paizo that aborted fetus monster minis were offensive to the transgender community, they might recall it.
well the atropal is stillborn gods in general unless there is a source im missing its never stated if abortions count (i dont count them but it still works fine if you do). One thing you definintly dont want to do is restrict it to abortions only because then you are halving potentiol atropals by restricting it to the offspring of evil deites.
Unless somebody forcibly aborts a good or neutral deity. That could be an interesting epic level quest an evil god wants to capture and abort a good goddes players could have great fun being on either side
Quote from: crazyfunster;831055Neither am I an expert on folk mythology from the Philippines, despite being Filipino. Theres no single xomprehensive and unified description for these creatures, outside of a general thirst for blood and human flesh.
Part of that reason is how scattered human civilization was in the islands, before Spain.
They do have some general unifying traits: like the aforementioned manananggal.
Its a bog-standard befanged and clawed ghoul posing as a normal human; except with the added twist of being able to detach its upper half to hunt from the air.
hey pundit you have a piece of paper saying you know about this stuff whats indias take on fetus monsters
Quote from: AnthonyRoberson;830953Poor taste indeed.
Yeah preach on brother....
Feathers on DEINONYCHUS? The paleontology is not settled and I, for one, would like to think that dinosaurs could at least stay cool without science screwing them up like they did Pluto.
As someone who loves monsters, gore, horror, and old-timey carny culture, and as someone who never let "Good taste" contaminate my fun, this is a fucking awesome idea for a miniature.
EDIT: WHOA! That "Mad Prophet" figure from the same set looks like an Erol Otus drawing brought to 3-D! So cool!
This totally sounds like a tempest in a teapot to me.
this thread made me head over to the baning place to see whats going on in the world of moral outrage now that the strange has calmed down
i have decided its time to light fuse and run away gonna go down in a blaze of glory.
Oh for pity's sake.
RPGs are choked with racism, and with plenty of parallels, real or imagined, to whatever oppressed minorities fit your pet rant. They're full of torture, blasphemy, rape, robbery and just about anything else anti-social. Your average gamer not only routinely portrays serial killers with body counts that would impress Genghis Khan, but does so with a calloused elan worthy of Renaissance condottieri. What's remotely tasteful about "kill them and take their stuff?"
With all of this, my reaction is somewhere between "You're only now discovering that RPGs are often in poor taste?" and eyerolling.
Quote from: tuypo1;831399this thread made me head over to the baning place to see whats going on in the world of moral outrage now that the strange has calmed down
i have decided its time to light fuse and run away gonna go down in a blaze of glory.
you should avoid such childish en devours and simply avoid tbp
live and let live
we discuss the hypocrisy hatred and orwiningen matchines here enough
Quote from: RPGPundit;831388This totally sounds like a tempest in a teapot to me.
Jar actually... :eek:
Quote from: trechriron;831792you should avoid such childish en devours and simply avoid tbp
live and let live
we discuss the hypocrisy hatred and orwiningen matchines here enough
yeah your right i decided against it in the end especially because the thread i was going to use did have a few decent things been said amongst the noise and i did not want to detract from that.